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Rebels should not have events or expeditions if they do not create engaging content themselves.

  • Thread starter Thread starter Conundrum
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Conundrum

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Now this suggestion is going to be controversial and rile up a good portion of the community, probably, but I propose that no further creative events are provided specifically to the Rebel playerbase by default.

A new system is suggested to come into effect, one where disruptive acts against the Combine on the main server provide points which can be redeemed by the Rebel faction lead(s) to decide what kind of story content they can be spent on. Both random acts of terrorism, as well as quest goals should provide these points. Which can be spent on shipments, narratives and expeditions. With the latter costing a good amount.

Perhaps this could encourage Rebels to put their characters at risk to create 'greater' change, or at least provide something for the general population to gossip about. If they do not do so, then they are provided no support.

The CCA is essentially being given the full narrative focus because unlike Rebels, who should be a counter balance, the CCA actually has a presence and is already in a position to do what they want largely unchallenged.

I don't know. It is just a suggestion. Something needs to change and I'm sure someone else can think up the nuances. I have yet to feel any impact Rebels have provided to the main server. At most, some throwaways have made things mildly interesting with their kamikazi's spicing things up. Dedicated Rebels may as well not exist.
 
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Now that I think of it, there was that break-in that leaked some secret files back in district 9. Would have liked to see more of that.
 
Now that I think of it, there was that break-in that leaked some secret files back in district 9. Would have liked to see more of that.
I doubt it, nothing happens anymore apart from throwaways getting guns and trying crazy shit, then getting banned
 
You have to keep in mind that for the last (No idea how long things have been going on for), rebels have been consistently hitting the triumph checkpoint, attacking patrols and have been pretty active both on and off the stage. It reached the point where CPs and the city as a whole had kept socio-stability at red (not a good thing for rebels or citizens). It has gotten so bad that cps have been allowed to simply make life literal hell for citizens and the slums. In the last two weeks or so alone the slums have been burned to the ground several times, patrols sweeping through and killing anyone seen to prove a point, the placement of both hopper and roller mines within the area as well as turrets to kill anyone that just so happens to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. The heavily armed and armored checkpoint that is occupied almost 70% of the time by cps being a massive given to how active the rebel side has been against the union and what kind of response it's provoked.
To say that rebels are by any means inactive against the city or don't risk their characters for change is outlandish in my opinion. This is of course just my opinion, since I can only see and hear about the things that come onto my radar. The same could be said for people that aren't taking part in these incursions.
To take away the option of expeditions for the rebel player base that would rather go out and make change on the world map instead of things in the city for the nth time is by no means a good idea. As it stands there is only so much people can do within the city (Bombings, sabotage, kidnapping, assaults, ect.) and a lot of it gets hindered by activities that have already happened, or keep happening of the same kind because civil protection is on alert near 24/7. Tbh, letting things cooldown and not conducting random attacks every day would actually be more beneficial than anything, since it'll allow guards to drop and the smoke in the city to settle for a change.
 
im more surprised nobody make a appeal for shit like this, i do get it's NLR but you losing everything you had on you just because of some event you weren't even involved in 💀
patrols sweeping through and killing anyone seen to prove a point,
 
You have to keep in mind that for the last (No idea how long things have been going on for), rebels have been consistently hitting the triumph checkpoint, attacking patrols and have been pretty active both on and off the stage. It reached the point where CPs and the city as a whole had kept socio-stability at red (not a good thing for rebels or citizens). It has gotten so bad that cps have been allowed to simply make life literal hell for citizens and the slums. In the last two weeks or so alone the slums have been burned to the ground several times, patrols sweeping through and killing anyone seen to prove a point, the placement of both hopper and roller mines within the area as well as turrets to kill anyone that just so happens to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. The heavily armed and armored checkpoint that is occupied almost 70% of the time by cps being a massive given to how active the rebel side has been against the union and what kind of response it's provoked.
To say that rebels are by any means inactive against the city or don't risk their characters for change is outlandish in my opinion. This is of course just my opinion, since I can only see and hear about the things that come onto my radar. The same could be said for people that aren't taking part in these incursions.
To take away the option of expeditions for the rebel player base that would rather go out and make change on the world map instead of things in the city for the nth time is by no means a good idea. As it stands there is only so much people can do within the city (Bombings, sabotage, kidnapping, assaults, ect.) and a lot of it gets hindered by activities that have already happened, or keep happening of the same kind because civil protection is on alert near 24/7. Tbh, letting things cooldown and not conducting random attacks every day would actually be more beneficial than anything, since it'll allow guards to drop and the smoke in the city to settle for a change.

>Sabotage Forcefield: 10 points.
>Dismantle Turret: 6 points.
>Destroy Cameras: 4 points.
>Assassinate high value targets: 20 points.

Expedition grant: 50 points. (Or whatever reasonable, fine-tuned and well thought out number.)

Idk man. Everything you largely listed is a perfect excuse to do rebel things and try to undermine the Combine. Then get rewarded points for doing so, which you can then spend on your vacations outside of the city. This system would reward Rebels for their persistence, instead of their sloth and hesitation. While I am no rebel player and cannot know the scale of effort put in, I can feel the lack of their presence and rebels are notorious for being risk averse. Right now we're not even dangling a carrot to encourage they do anything. We're feeding Rebels freely with side content while the main server starves for conflict.
 
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Rebel players don't really have much initiative and in most cases are really under prepared, especially when it comes to combat against the combine factions. OTA is a good example of a faction which has to purposely handicap themselves as to give the rebels a fighting chance, and when they don't, rebel players complain that the ultra rare, secret wall hammer unit is in reality really strong. Well well, if it isn't the consequences of my own actions. As it is rebel players have way too many second chances and because of it, it can lead to entitlement when facing something they or the character doesn't like.

As for rebels not creating engaging RP themselves is a baseless claim and in fact I've seen quite contrary. Though we are past the age of Cole Phelps homeless shelter I think soon something will come around that will bring life back to slum RP.
 
As for rebels not creating engaging RP themselves is a baseless claim and in fact I've seen quite contrary.
If Rebels never operate outside of the slums, they might as well be the CCA in the Nexus, just with far less influence. You claim you have seen them do things, in a different age. Over the last three or four months all I've seen, or felt, was that time some guys raided the warehouse in District 9 and stole some documents, then most died.

It's not a baseless claim to say they might as well not exist if we go months without anything of note done outside of the slums. Background, unseen content holds as much narrative weight for the server as me roleplaying inside my apartment with the door locked.

Now admittedly I can't be certain what interesting events were pushed by rebels or the narrative team. So I could be overlooking a few weeks ago when the generators started going down and the district was thrown into pure chaos. Was this the result of player sabotage? If so, that's my idealized and unrealistic standard for engaging content.
 
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If Rebels never operate outside of the slums, they might as well be the CCA in the Nexus, just with far less influence. You claim you have seen them do things, in a different age. Over the last three or four months all I've seen, or felt, was that time some guys raided the warehouse in District 9 and stole some documents, then most died.

It's not a baseless claim to say they might as well not exist if we go months without anything of note done outside of the slums. Background, unseen content holds as much narrative weight for the server as me roleplaying inside my apartment with the door locked.

Now admittedly I can't be certain what interesting events were pushed by rebels or the narrative team. So I could be overlooking a few weeks ago when the generators started going down and the district was thrown into pure chaos. Was this the result of player sabotage? If so, that's my idealized and unrealistic standard for engaging content.
I think you also may be forgetting the abundance of loyalists the rebels had killed, Ron Goodfella, your character, Samuel Haze and though a little further back even Alex Weaver. Not to mention the abundance of things that have happened within the city, I wont every mention but a small example was when a rebel had hacked into a terminal and messed with combine tech for a good few days.

Just because you don't see what they're doing doesn't mean they aren't doing anything at all.
 
I think you also may be forgetting the abundance of loyalists the rebels had killed, Ron Goodfella, your character, Samuel Haze and though a little further back even Alex Weaver. Not to mention the abundance of things that have happened within the city, I wont every mention but a small example was when a rebel had hacked into a terminal and messed with combine tech for a good few days.

Just because you don't see what they're doing doesn't mean they aren't
It's a fair sentiment that there are bound to be things I don't take notice of. Which is where the lock myself in my apartment analogy comes from. I could do all kinds of things in that room. But where is the entertainment value for anyone outside of it? Citizen RP is already dreadfully dull, save for the odd spec of spontaneity that comes from CCA/LA decisions that spice things up for a week.

My CCA has gone around without an escort for weeks without threat and was only done in by a throwaway. My Citizen has only really seen rebel activity in the slums itself, which is almost another country, map wise.
 
This is an understandable thread from a personal perspective I hold, given the relation to the rebels right now is a stale and intricate environment. The inheritance of a server narrative for insurgent driven activity is one I feel that is the most required for a set precedence. I have something in the works at the request of the new Narrative Team to supplement some of your concerns, at least to the tertiary remark.

The CCA do have the ball currently. However it is imperative to note that the conglomeration of the rebel players are better off without planning to charge down the central part of Combine territory only to be released inside memory lane with a standing amount of PKs due to the rambo style activity.

I agree with you, so I would keep your eyes to the NT for the time being and pester them with enough prods to keep Vortigaunts & Rebels in a loophole.
 
think about it like this

imagine you’re a rebel in city-24. you literally can’t do anything on the main server if it isnt approved by staff or creative team GMs, otherwise you’ll get shot in the head by a random civil protection and start arguing over a PK appeal. because of this, rebels are forced to stay in solitude and do nothing. they literally can’t do anything and it’s not their fault.

the main outlet for them to actually play their role is through expeditions or events. if rebels were actually more interesting and their subfactions didn’t die in a month or less (cough cough Jun’s Army) then maybe more people would start joining and have some decent slum RP in city-24. this is an overarching issue with staff neglecting rebels as a whole, it isn’t the factions fault.

don’t paint them like the villains in this and give them sympathy at the same time. rebels are inactive cause they’re not focused on as you said, and i do believe there should be a change in narrative focus to actually include them. but it shouldn’t be random stuff like terrorism as you suggested, at this point you’re making them look as bad as the combine. events and expeditions get the faction active, so if it ain’t broke then don’t fix it in that regard, it’s the main server that’s the issue.
 
The City honestly is the worst place for rebels to do actual big things. Why? It's the middle of the Combine's stronghold, where they will swat you away with OTA like an annoying fly and move on with their day. The best you get is risking your life for a token attack that in 90% of the cases is forgotten by next week and likely sees you killed. 9% is big attacks that won't be forgotten but are a certain death. 1% are actual good strategic attacks that don't fuck over your expected lifespan.

I believe it is more than normal for actual rebel attacks in the City to be rare. It is how things should be, assuming the resistance is focused on other things.

Good rebels don't do anything on the City. Good rebels get expeditions run for them and fuck shit up where the Combine are weaker. Bigger impact, higher survival chance. And when the stars align, they stick it to the Combine in the City to remind everyone they are still there.

See, the best rebel is someone like Bob. Bob never touches his gear in the City. Bob lives a normal life, works the occasional shift for the CWU. Bob bides his time, plans for his next move. Bob occasionally goes to the outlands with his friends to shoot some stuff or perform some rapid unscheduled disassembly of Combine assets. Bob gets paid, then Bob continues his normal life again, licking his wounds and building up strength again. And one day the vice administrator or some other big figure attends the funeral of some combine traitor outside the nexus. He gets blown up by Bob, who has quietly stashed enough C4 to level half a building during the past six months (surprised adminge faces when they determine this is valid). He will kill the vice admin (or some other big figure), get declared anti-citizen one while being recruited by Civil Protection to put out his own fire because they don't know that Bob is Bob. The OTA will sweep circles in the sewers and slums while Bob sits on a bench in the plaza enjoying his fresh ration. The Combine hate Bob, because they will never see Bob coming, they will never catch Bob, and Bob will fuck shit up when he sees the right opportunity. Be like Bob.

Edit: I wanted to add, I believe it to be wrong to measure a rebel's 'effectiveness' by what he does in the City within only a period of weeks/months just as much as I believe it to be wrong to measure a rebels 'dangerousness' by how much gear/gun he walks around with. The real dangerous ones are those that can blend in while maintaining an ability to strike when they want to. They will pick their battles that they can win and are worth the risk and effort. By the time their strike happens, they likely are gone already. They are aware that no matter how much gun you have, you are always outgunned against the Combine/OTA. They could likely do more, but the Combine has the big propaganda advantage and will vilify them as terrorists. That is the one actual thing the resistance is failing at, and why a lot of people aren't willing to try anything either. What is a victory if your opponent uses it to turn the whole City against you?
 
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I feel a bit ambivalent to this to be honest, at one point I kind of agree but if that were the case then OTA and CP shouldn't get any expeditions at all themselves and OSF shouldn't exist. If we want a solid server based roleplay then all factions should be based around this. However, I feel as though expeditions do a great job of world building from the rebel stand point. It makes things seem larger and allows the members to properly gauge the scope of the union. The Quest and Expedition system work well as a healthy bounce-back like that of the Civil Protection roleplay wise and create a solid sense of disconnect from the city. I do think it can be dangerous if there's no need at all for interaction between rebels and CP then there is something wrong, but there is a healthy balance so far.

From an OOC standpoint I think if there was nothing else than RP entirely in the City and Slums then the economy would quickly stagnate within the slums. Other than that, there is the issue of a massive drop in interest and player activity in the slums. If there is no overarching narrative other than that created by the player then why play at all. While it is inherently interesting that everything is player base but at the same time, when you accomplish what your character wants then there is no point in playing that character any more. If there is no overarching narrative to prescribe too then what is the point? Let's take Eve Online for an example, it's a market entirely dictated by the player and everything is done as such. Yet the population dips and peaks as in line with events within the game.
 
As someone who's been getting more into the slummer and rebel space on main lately, I don't have too much to add that others haven't already mentioned, but I'd like to word it in my own way and add some real world knowledge of how irl insurgencies and partisan movements function and how that could be translated into the game narratively and such.

An important thing mentioned by Gr4Ss is the fact that rebels have the advantage of being able to choose when to fight their battles. Historically, this is the big thing with how insurgent movements irl were able to make any kind of progress against whatever occupation force they were fighting against, and is generally considered to be one of the primary advantages that insurgencies have over the occupation forces in terms of how they fight. The quote typically goes "The guerrilla wins if he doesn't lose. The occupation forces lose if they don't win." Basically, what this means is that, while insurgents can choose their battles most of the time to ensure they take on operations with the highest chance of success while minimizing losses on their end, the occupation forces must always win every encounter they have with the insurgents to be making some kind of dent in their activities, hence why counter-insurgency campaigns have historically had "search and destroy" doctrines applied to them. There's a reason why insurgents doing a quick ambush then running away into no-go zones before the occupation forces can catch them is considered a loss for the occupation forces, even if the ambush itself isn't particularly successful, as the insurgents would be able to simply escape and live to fight another day.

So, this is why it takes a while for rebels to do much of anything in the city and how they prefer to do most of their activities on expeditions, because the city is far from an ideal location for insurgent activity to take place in due to how well-guarded it is and the generally tight grip Civil Protection keeps beyond the slums. Short of some terrorist attacks and HVT assassinations or a general uprising that may occur after potentially years of outland operations, planning and prep-work, rebel activity shouldn't realistically be expected to occur within city limits too often, as most of it would take place in the outlands, where the Combine presence is weaker as others have mentioned, and the rebels are able to use the rural and remote terrains to their advantage more.

One thing that, in my opinion, has proved that rebels need some kind of shared narrative to get behind in order to do their activities more, is the addition of the quest board in the slums. The quest board, which is typically operated by GMs offering work in exchange for chips, has allowed more rebel activity to occur within the city due to the nature of the work offered and the payments offered, and the fact that the quest board allows for rebels to do things for rewards more often than they would've under the old system of waiting for BMDs to give people quests from time to time (which they, of course, still do, but it works better under this system where they don't have a monopoly on quest giving). In my opinion, I think that rebel operations during expeditions should also have an effect on the Combine's resources and security situation within City 24, and that Civil Protection/OTA/OAA expeditions should be done to counter outland rebel activity and maintain the tight grip in City 24, basically serving as a foil to rebel expeditions whose success could potentially bring stability and security within the city down. Ideally, as the security situation within City 24 changes for better or for worse, quests given by GMs on the board will also change with the kinds of jobs they have to do and the rewards offered, in order to reflect the changing situation within the city at different times.

In my opinion, the primary goal that rebels should be working towards with these expeditions to bring stability down in the sector around City 24 (and potentially Sector 10 in general depending on how people would want this to go), would be to weaken the local Combine presence enough, as well as allow for enough resources to be funneled to the rebel side, to eventually allow enough equipment and fighters to be smuggled into the city to make way for a general uprising, ala the Warsaw Uprising of 1944. And by "general uprising" I don't just mean "five rebel cells show up in Triumph one day before getting assblasted by OTA" or whatever. An event for an uprising to occur should definitely have heavy GM involvement and such so as to better ensure that the rebels have an actual chance to succeed at doing this, and also for the narrative team and such to make it clear that it's a city-wide uprising and not just restricted to the district we're playing in, in order to provide better payoff for all the work rebels would've been doing in expeditions and such to make this event happen, while giving the highest risks for failure as well, since failure would mean the rebel cells being wiped out and forced to start from square one again, or even the city itself being wiped out by the Combine or at least the CCA and such being fully replaced by entirely new people.

Now, the pacing of rebel activities within the narrative to eventually lead to something like this can vary, but I think a good thing to use as a reference point is the doctrine of Protracted People's War and how insurgencies operate according to that doctrine. It's a three-phase doctrine, detailing a mixture of political/propaganda and military actions that guerrilla groups should take to fight occupation forces, from the recruiting/equipment gathering/building of a base area phase, to the guerrilla activity/terrorism/base area expansion and establishment of new base areas phase, to the final phase of conventional warfare, which would be the uprising/civil war phase in this case.

Now, I know that some narrative restrictions still need to take place due to the lore and timeline on Willard, but with v3 on it's way soon, I think having this kind of narrative potentially play out for rebels would be one good way that we can cap off v2 before moving to v3 in a way that still allows for player agency to help determine the ending of v2 and such. Even besides that and going into v3, I'm kind of into the idea of uprisings happening in places outside of City 17 before Gordon's arrival in the narrative anyway, with the Combine either destroying them before they spread beyond their home sector, or keeping them relatively under control in a stalemate or something while heavily censoring any info about them occuring so that most of the citizenry in sectors beyond where the uprising/civil war is happening remain largely unaware that it's even happening, and think that everything's under control.

At the end of the day though, quite a bit of this is just wishful thinking on my part and such, since I'm pretty sure staff already have a plan for how to handle rebels when it comes to expeditions and city activity and shit, but I figured I'd throw my 2 cents in here too, just to give people ideas.
 
Sorry guys we're three points short on progressing the storyline we have to blow up a generator first :(

The answer is the return of those dark events, just more player driven, like little mini dark events. Give short lore summaries of events that admins and gm's observe happening in the city, so people can see their interactions make a real impact. So when someone's character gets killed they can still point to where they were in the story and say "Here's where I was, this is what I did". Keep it vague enough to prevent meta but also allow someone to know when they've stumbled into something significant. This also allows a storyline that isn't being entirely written by one or two people, but instead a storyline that is gently guided but still player driven.

There are a million tiny issues about economy or rules people can argue about but mostly people would just like to see a sentence or two about how their character or group actually made a difference somewhere, so they feel included in it and know it's possible.
 
The most of the points I wished to make have already been stated by others in this regard, but I believe there to be another 3 OOC reasons on why one may think Rebels are inactive... and that is true to some extent.

Firstly, the map... its small- its layout is not exactly offering much and generally can easily feel stale. With that said, the map is really not made for Rebel Activity whatsoever. It was made to bring RP as close as possible at the expense of Combat and resistance activity... it really is NOT designed for rebels to act at all unlike other maps which have rebel hideouts in every nook and cranny you can think of. The compact size allows OTA and CPs to chase their target and quickly corner them. Its layout offers little in methods or ways to escape that any attempt at an attack is pointless given all escape routes are defacto cut off no matter what.

The recent addition of the new Checkpoint and makeshift wall has put a big stranglehold on the rebels with them not being able to destroy it... why can't they destroy it... well reason number 2.

Secondly, Auths... Auths are the biggest pain in the arse for any rebel or even citizen for that matter. Some take ages to get a response, others do get a response but sometimes the team is not really willing to let things slide or go in anyone's favour. Recently there was someone who wished to blow up CP-3, the new Triumph checkpoint- they had prepared and where about to hit it but of course one thing they needed was an Auth... and while they did in the end give up anyway due to the fact the CP-3 as a big ion cannon capable of one-shotting any rebel in its path (retarded ngl) it is still noted to take about 2-4 weeks for that auth to even lift off the ground. What was the reason? The person who built the checkpoint was to be the one to oversee it... which I found silly since never should a specific person be required to oversee an attack, just do it.

I am the type of person who believes in Clockwork era RebelRP where one did not need to go through an Auth process. Attacks were spontaneous and GMs and factions alike had to respond on their feet as and when shit went down. Never did Rebels have to go through a process other than just waiting for the time to strike when 4+ CPs were online. Surprising everyone with their pants down (not literally). And while yes it was a pain to deal with- everything was indeed more fluent and natural feeling with Rebels behaving like true insurgents and picking the battles they could win without Combine knowing about it OOCly prior.

Not saying auths should go entirely, just ones relating to attacks AFTER THE FACT rebels have the gear they need to do what they wish to do. I remember this being a panic installation because no one could tell how much damage one could do and was always out of control and random.

Lastly, rules... rules are good but a few do have an inadvertent side effect of royally screwing everyone. They are out of date and are currently being updated but even so- they are a bit on the side of a WTF moment in some places. Sometimes entire fights or resistance activity is stopped in its tracks simply because some ambiguous requirement has not been met... how peculiar... how anti-rp some of them are. I know some of them are there to protect other users but maybe a loose ruleset might be more beneficial for those wanting to commit a larger variety of crime without 5 different requirements needing a tick mark.

Honestly, compared to my CW HL2RP days. Willard is a bit of a 50/50 when it comes to matching those environments with some internal panic happening too frequently over the smallest of things.

That is my input...
 
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