Reform to Snitching and CP investigation systems.

[VelmaDingus]

Okay, so, I recently got PK'd. No evidence was provided for me to refute. I was asked if I did anything, and I said "no". A negative claim. The burden of proof is on the accuser to provide evidence to prove what they're saying. Proving a negative claim is impossible. If I asked you, the reader, to prove that you do not kill babies, you could not, because you do not have an alibi for every second your life. The burden is on me, for making the possible claim that you do.

This is the second time I got PK'd (last time, appealed, due to pretty much no actual IC evidence, which is what will likely happen this time again) and it's extremely common from what I've seen. If you're accused of something, CPs currently ask you to prove a negative claim (a literal impossible feat, it's not possible to have a 24/7 alibi, fictitious or real!) and if you can't they PK you.

It's fine if you want to provide some evidence or snitch, to get out alive or go to OCR, but if they have nothing on you, they PK you and then you have to appeal.

This system is extremely fucking taxing and I'm very annoyed to have to go through it again. Both times, the snitchers had nothing concrete on me, but if they did, I'd like to be able to avoid a PK by forcing the CPs themselves to actually find evidence, which wouldn't be hard, given they now highly suspect me.

Additionally, any snitch can say anything to Civil Protection, and it will start this chain of events. A freshly made character can minge or meta game, and CPs will take it IC, BOL the person in question, and then amputate them if they have nothing to say. This is appealable, of course, but it leads to your character being out of action for a long time, and puts all the burden onto the person to defend themselves.

Instead, I suggest a return to the PK auth (rather than PK appeal) system, but SOLELY for CP amputations/BOLs based on eye witness testimony. In future, if a snitch comes to CPs, the faction needs to make a case file, digest it, and come up with solid charges that are provable for it; from them they can pursue an interrogation, but it cannot end in a PK unless they have solid evidence!

I get the Civil Protection are not judges, they will (in universe) kill people for very little. But that makes for a really boring story and roleplaying experience. Put some burden of proof on them. Do *not* just PK someone because this 4hr old character said "Hey, they're a webul.".

Last time, I was charged with a weapons charge, despite them never finding a weapon on me, seeing me with one, or finding a weapon at all, let alone one they believed to be mine. That was appealed. This one will be appealed too, because there's no evidence again.

I was called on my conduct for delaying RP and talking in LOOC, but I was just trying to get the CPs to tell me, OOCly, what my charge was. Killing someone for literally no reason is extremely frustrating.

Having a heavier burden of proof on crimes is extremely important. Hearsay and eye witnesses should be suspicious and cause CPs to start looking for evidence. It might even give the IAT something to do. Until then, people will keep getting PK'd for nothing, have to to appeal.

This really stifles Rebel RP; at the CWU or the DOB or Civil Protection, you need auths to really fuck with the organization. For rebel groups, they can be wiped out by a single minge and the apathy that follows - I was genuinely considering not even making an appeal this time, because of how much fuss it was last time.

Snitching stifles RP, not only by wiping it out, but when I was still alive, I'd have to avoid talking to people - slums RP was actively hindered by the fact that I know how bullshit this system is, and how hard appealing it is.

People criticize rebels for sitting in their bases all day; this is why they do it. It takes a gentle breeze to undo everything. Not in a narratively satisfying way, or a co-operative, mutually satisfactory roleplay scenario. Just one dude running to CPs, bland interrogation RP, and amputation.

That's not RP, that's tedium.

 

[George]

Two: Snitching Auths

this is my idea

 

[VelmaDingus]

because quite frankly rebels don't do much that cops see themselves.

Because of this shit; we don't get to be set up enough to do stuff.

The clinic, no meta, had 4 different operations, all of which would provide a LOT of roleplay for CPs, real cat and mouse stuff, but like... Nah, cell wiped out to snitches.

10/10 roleplay moment.

 

[VelmaDingus]

this is my idea

it is yes!

 

[John Rico]

The core of the issue I see here is that execution seems to be the blanket punishment for a lot of crimes that don't warrant it. Nothing about the clinic sounds like it deserved a bullet to the head, only a lengthy stay in the OCR at most. That should be the norm for crimes that don't involve a person directly attacking the Combine or other violent activities, instead of being hanged for what's basically charity.

 

[vilhjalmrf]

It goes a lot to say about some of our players when you have to create a 'Snitch Auth' permission. How things have changed.

 

[VelmaDingus]

The core of the issue I see here is that execution seems to be the blanket punishment for a lot of crimes that don't warrant it. Nothing about the clinic sounds like it deserved a bullet to the head, only a lengthy stay in the OCR at most. That should be the norm for crimes that don't involve a person directly attacking the Combine or other violent activities, instead of being hanged for what's basically charity.

So, we've done a lot of red tier violation stuff, but none of that has ever been reported.

At most, the crime of running an unofficial clinic is a re-education. It's an orange violation! 99! Medicine is under 99! It's orange contra, not red.

 

[Deleted member 4096]

The core of the issue I see here is that execution seems to be the blanket punishment for a lot of crimes that don't warrant it. Nothing about the clinic sounds like it deserved a bullet to the head, only a lengthy stay in the OCR at most. That should be the norm for crimes that don't involve a person directly attacking the Combine or other violent activities, instead of being hanged for what's basically charity.

It's much more better if the Social Credits were utilized as a punishment system instead, imho. Stray too low; barring restrictive consequences, and get killed.

Imho.

 

[Liam]

Okay, so, I recently got PK'd. No evidence was provided for me to refute. I was asked if I did anything, and I said "no". A negative claim. The burden of proof is on the accuser to provide evidence to prove what they're saying. Proving a negative claim is impossible. If I asked you, the reader, to prove that you do not kill babies, you could not, because you do not have an alibi for every second your life. The burden is on me, for making the possible claim that you do.

This is the second time I got PK'd (last time, appealed, due to pretty much no actual IC evidence, which is what will likely happen this time again) and it's extremely common from what I've seen. If you're accused of something, CPs currently ask you to prove a negative claim (a literal impossible feat, it's not possible to have a 24/7 alibi, fictitious or real!) and if you can't they PK you.

It's fine if you want to provide some evidence or snitch, to get out alive or go to OCR, but if they have nothing on you, they PK you and then you have to appeal.

This system is extremely fucking taxing and I'm very annoyed to have to go through it again. Both times, the snitchers had nothing concrete on me, but if they did, I'd like to be able to avoid a PK by forcing the CPs themselves to actually find evidence, which wouldn't be hard, given they now highly suspect me.

Additionally, any snitch can say anything to Civil Protection, and it will start this chain of events. A freshly made character can minge or meta game, and CPs will take it IC, BOL the person in question, and then amputate them if they have nothing to say. This is appealable, of course, but it leads to your character being out of action for a long time, and puts all the burden onto the person to defend themselves.

Instead, I suggest a return to the PK auth (rather than PK appeal) system, but SOLELY for CP amputations/BOLs based on eye witness testimony. In future, if a snitch comes to CPs, the faction needs to make a case file, digest it, and come up with solid charges that are provable for it; from them they can pursue an interrogation, but it cannot end in a PK unless they have solid evidence!

I get the Civil Protection are not judges, they will (in universe) kill people for very little. But that makes for a really boring story and roleplaying experience. Put some burden of proof on them. Do *not* just PK someone because this 4hr old character said "Hey, they're a webul.".

Last time, I was charged with a weapons charge, despite them never finding a weapon on me, seeing me with one, or finding a weapon at all, let alone one they believed to be mine. That was appealed. This one will be appealed too, because there's no evidence again.

I was called on my conduct for delaying RP and talking in LOOC, but I was just trying to get the CPs to tell me, OOCly, what my charge was. Killing someone for literally no reason is extremely frustrating.

Having a heavier burden of proof on crimes is extremely important. Hearsay and eye witnesses should be suspicious and cause CPs to start looking for evidence. It might even give the IAT something to do. Until then, people will keep getting PK'd for nothing, have to to appeal.

This really stifles Rebel RP; at the CWU or the DOB or Civil Protection, you need auths to really fuck with the organization. For rebel groups, they can be wiped out by a single minge and the apathy that follows - I was genuinely considering not even making an appeal this time, because of how much fuss it was last time.

Snitching stifles RP, not only by wiping it out, but when I was still alive, I'd have to avoid talking to people - slums RP was actively hindered by the fact that I know how bullshit this system is, and how hard appealing it is.

People criticize rebels for sitting in their bases all day; this is why they do it. It takes a gentle breeze to undo everything. Not in a narratively satisfying way, or a co-operative, mutually satisfactory roleplay scenario. Just one dude running to CPs, bland interrogation RP, and amputation.

That's not RP, that's tedium.

Suggested this privatley with staff following the whole ordeal you and others went through yesterday, but I'll put it here too. Any information obtained by snitches should be required to be oocly fact checked by staff and given approval before being used by Civil Protection. During this process staff should also advise on whether it fits the PK policy or should be handled by a beating or OCR instead.

As for snitching itself It should stay, as it provides a counter for regular citizens to not be the subject of crime. It just needs better moderation to ensure three pk's don't happen before anyone realises it is meta information. I do genuinley believe if somone catches you out and snitches you out, all above board, it is fair game.

(Edit): Snitching is also a good means for balance. Without them, CP have much less power to counter rebels in a fair way.

 

[VelmaDingus]

Any information obtained by snitches should be required to be oocly fact checked by staff and given approval before being used by Civil Protection.

Sounds really good!

I also think there is a degree of metagaming going on with the CPs, that is just made standard procedure now.

Both Weaver and Raymond were taken in on the same charge (mentioned by "eye witness" with literally no evidence whatsoever, eye witness could have said ANYONE). Only Weaver (who was proven OOCly to do it) was killed, and Raymond was let free (because they weren't allowed to kill him, given log checking showed he'd done nothing.)

This is because CPs have to verify the crime was actually committed, OOCly, before they can PK... How about they have to prove it ICly too? There was literally no evidence other than a random person making accusations.

Both times I have been taken in like this, I have done PHENOMENALLY well in the interviews, and let nothing slip. They've suspected me, based on testimony from some nobody, but there has always been no evidence and I've never contradicted myself... Doesn't matter, because they just confirm I did it OOCly and then execute me for that? Doesn't feel fair.

 

[VelmaDingus]

It's much more better if the Social Credits were utilized as a punishment system instead, imho. Stray too low; barring restrictive consequences, and get killed.

Imho.

Smart.
I also think what would help is serious OOC repercussions for people who make metagamed reports like nott did.

 

[VelmaDingus]

Shouldn't be happening already.

Sadly, rules that aren't enforced and do not have consequences are not rules. They're just neat little words that don't matter to anyone.

I describe what is happening, not what is meant to happen. The people here, breaking these faction rules, are not held accountable, instead the snitch is.

Yes, CPs are meant to have evidence for a PK, and vet witnesses.

In the past month, I have been PK'd twice in instances they didn't, this time by three people, one of whom was MCP, two of whom were RLs.

Clearly, even the very high-ranked in the faction (and admins, to boot), aren't following their own faction rules.

Therefore, while the rule doesn't need to be changed, how it is enforced does. A reform. Perhaps additional rules too, like snitching auths.

 

[Maroon]

The reliability of IAT investigators on testimonies is absolutely crucial. The issue is that, through the winding ways of how information is gathered and shared, finding the root of metagame is very challenging. The average investigator cop has an incredibly hard time verifying the information when it reaches him, but that doesn't mean we should get rid of snitches.

If metagame happens on the Civil Protection side, we (the faction leads) largely rely on complaints on either the forums or privately so we can verify the facts. We rarely get any of those, though. The snitch auth proposal is far too radical in my opinion though, because it would require a significant delay of an investigation and the spread of knowledge that an investigation is evening happening. Both of those, in turn, cause their own issues, and I trust people in the whitelist well enough.

I actually don't like the fact that the sole way for investigations to happen is through testimony. It's messy and error-prone, and I'd much rather have a forensics system in place that become the prime strategy utilized. I mentioned this off-hand to one of the developers and that may or may not be a thing in the distant future. Dunno.

The only thing I can think of that we can IMMEDIATELY implement is a change in the rules that heavily increases the punishment for metagaming when it comes to relaying information about rebels to Civil Protection. No warning, even for first time offenders, and repeat offenders will be banned for three months rather than one (or with that same relative increase of length).

Most of what you speak about in your OP is already implemented. If you feel like a cop player has actively metagamed, please make a report and we will look into it. Throwing generalizing shade isn't gonna solve anything though. There's no real plans on changing the way cops interact with snitches at this stage: appeals and complaints against specific whitelist holders should be enough.

 

[VelmaDingus]

I actually don't like the fact that the sole way for investigations to happen is through testimony. It's messy and error-prone, and I'd much rather have a forensics system in place that become the prime strategy utilized. I mentioned this off-hand to one of the developers and that may or may not be a thing in the distant future. Dunno.

Yeah, because right now, it's a witch hunt, which, due to the OOC rule that you have to have actually committed the crime, is 100% effective.

Accuse anyone you like. If they're not guilty? They go. If they are? They die.

It's an incredibly unfair system. If it weren't for the OOC rule, everyone accused of anything would die on the server. As it stands now, the rule just deters rebels from ever doing anything, because the second they're snitched on, even by someone who knows nothing about them, they're going to die.

 

[VelmaDingus]

If you feel like a cop player has actively metagamed

Well, it's not metagaming, but it was Leudo, Goose, and Nezoose who were on when 2 people were PK'd and 1 person was lobotomized over no actual evidence whatsoever, other than testimony from a metagamer who hadn't been on their character since July (this is before I had even joined the server, and I am the one who started the rebel group.).

This was their decision despite not having a clear violation to charge us with (nothing we were accused of, nor anything they found, suggested anything above an orange tier violation at best) and not having any evidence that we were even involved, again, besides shaky testimony.

I think, even if that character knew the information ICly, Civil Protection should have to find something to actually charge you with a red tier violation. In practice, just someone accusing you of a red tier violation is enough to get you PK'd if they can prove you did it OOCly.

 

[VelmaDingus]

Throwing generalizing shade isn't gonna solve anything though

I am explaining what has actually happened to me and others. It's not generalizing shade, it's sharing my anecdotal evidence of how the system actually works in an attempt to fix this janky system.

I'm tired of having to make PK appeals and have my gameplay halted for things that never should have gone through in the first place.

Genuine question: If you're against snitching auths, are you also against rogue auths within factions?

The argument that it delays and causes a spread of information can be said of those as well.