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Implemented Get rid of Attributes

RedHotGinger

The Owl
GALUNGA
Joined
Sep 25, 2020
Messages
847
This is a minor suggestion, but I was thinking about attributes and how little they actually correlate to character abilities and personalities. The only thing these do is provide a permeant boost to certain skills, where they pretty much remain in the backdrop for the rest of eternity. GM's could possibly utilize them as a means of determining certain boosts or negatives when players preform actions, but skills would be a better tool for such a thing anyway.

The main issue with attributes is that they are too general and usually don't actually represent anything about the character in play. Someone good with guns, does not always need to be strong. Someone good with medicine, does not inherently need to be highly intelligent. Someone good at smuggling does not need to be agile. They are all very arbitrary additions that I'm sure most players just picked due to desired bonuses, even if they went against certain aspects of a character.


I would suggest replacing attribute allocation, with placing skill points directly into preferred fields, bypassing the initial boosts entirely.
Players upon creating a character are given a pool of points to apply to any skills they deem in line with that character, which will act as baseline points rather then 'boosts.'

Going to keep this fairly general, since we really do not know how the new system will look after it is revamped, so no real point in going into great depth, as that is not my field of expertise. Feel free to expand upon it in the comments, if you wish.
 
Eh. No.

I think Attributes need to do more then just boost specific skills. People choosing strength for instance should have a larger initial carry weight as we currently have nothing to boost carry weight apart from picking up a backpack that naturally is going to hurt agility.

However, I don't advise removing Atrributes all together since they are the core of how consumable items work. Boosting skills though items makes little sense. Also, removing Attributes would require a total char wipe and we cannot do that if we still want a community.

We just need to rework Attributes. Make them do something practical apart from just boosting skills.
 
Eh.

I think Attributes need to do more then just boost specific skills. People choosing strength for instance should have a larger initial carry weight.
weight isn't a thing in helix but I get where you're coming from


ultimately stats are a very ooc thing and aren't really reflective of the character itself

stats in the WN sense are always going to be pretty terrible as you require them to create things that your character would otherwise be able to create

the alternative is applying for crafter/BMD/whatever flags which isn't much better but I definitely prefer it myself. It doesn't force you to farm and grind for stats to such a degree and is more reliant on your background/experience
 
I'm going to dump these threads here for references.
https://willard.network/forums/threads/on-the-topic-of-skills.842/
https://willard.network/forums/threads/the-wn-skills-system-expansion.897/#post-5910


-Now for my actual post-

Here is your issue with skills. Every skill available incentivises grinding because it hard locks a reward until you reach a specific skill. Let's take medicine as a example:
*You can not use a medical kit unless you reach 20 medicine.

Here is your second issue with skills, every skill with the exception of speed and guns revolves around itemization in the script. The only way to raise crafting is to obtain more script items, the only way to raise bartering is to buy more script items and the only way to raise medicine is to use script items. It's a very itemized system and this is why the system cases annoyances.


-Now, I am going to talk about the fundamentals of why you guys made such a system.-
You are quite frankly conditioned to only think about systems through other systems which you've had experience with. In order to break this- I am going to explain why the systems below exist and thus' why you've made a mistake in implementation.


The Skill system from the Elder Scroll Series
1610763790407.png
This skill system is designed for a game which is a Action Role-playing Game ,

What is a Action Role-Playing Game (ARPG)?
1610764146530.png

In short, you're using a system that doesn't sync well with your other gameplay systems. A roleplay servers main theme isn't hacking through a sewer or killing things but instead on the roleplay itself. Not only that, but when it's come to combat ever since the inception of Garrysmod, it's never been Real-Time-Combat unless S2K has been declared which I personally despise.

Now, I think it's important to state this: Many of you people don't even know where roleplay came from, your closest reference to such things are things that were designed in a frame to not be role-playable but more of a action experience. Hell, Fallout 3 is most of your goto systems when it comes to a skill system.

1610764617665.png

Believe it or not, but this system is more reminicant of a older system but it's still designed for ARPG's. The prime difference here is that it allows a player the freedom to assign skill points but it still misses the formula that you need for a Roleplay server. You guys took from the fallout series the action point system that came from Fallout 1/2. This system is useful, but for other reasons.

Let's talk about combat for a brief moment.
1610764945481.png

Above is the fallout 1/2 skill system, most people pay attention to the skills on the far right, the far left and bottom. But no one I assume has paid attention to what truly matters as it's the outcome of combat being the statistical information in the centre. This is where things get interesting because this is where we get closer to home and start finding our roots into a Roleplay game of old.

Each stat there represents something vital about your character, in fallout's case it's how effective your Armor is, how many actions you can perform in the middle of TBC. Your carry weight (How strong your character is.) How hard your character punches, how much you are naturally resistant to poison or radiation. How fast your sequence is (Sequence = Reflex to act before anyone else can.), how fast you naturally heal over time and finally your critical strike chance. There is something else here that everyone doesn't seem to respect but it's actually the Hit Point system and the level system. Both exist for a reason and people should take the time to consider that.

As we move back onto skills, I want you guys to take note that the skills arent represented as raw values but as percentages. The skill system in fallout 1/2 did not limit what you could do in a action, it only changed/modified how successful you would be in a action with bonus's and penalties involving said actions.

An example!
If a player wishes to hotwire a care, the developer of the scene believes this task to be moderate in difficulty and so he provides the player a success threshold of 60%. If the player manages to beat 60% in his skill or a roll, he is able to hotwire the vehicle. The player then makes a 1D100 roll in order to try and succeed.

Something interesting about the Fallout 1/2 system is that skills go beyond 100% and all the way upto 300%. This is because you can critically succeed in a spectacular way when doing something. There isnt a hard fail or a hard success. If I reload a M1 Garand, I have afew chances of things happen. I have a chance of getting Garand Thumb where my thumb is stuck in the chamber. I have a chance of reloading the Garand properly, I have a chance of reloading the Garand so quick and effectively that I am able to fire quicker then the guy who intends to fire back at me can. These are but simple additional conditions that the previous systems lack in terms of success or failure and thus' what Willard subsequently lacks in terms of character uniqueness.

Back to Basics!
One fundamental aspect to these RPG games you guys have played is the fact that a developer has sat there and had to hand-craft every storyline quest just for you to play. Here is but a few examples of what I am talking about.
1610765934240.png
1610765965713.png

The developers of such systems and games intend for you to go on a adventure of a minimum of 59 quests just to max out your characters stats, now do some basic cognitive function and you'll realize that Fallout 3 has 13 skills, all of these skills will be maxed out by your 59th quest and are intended to reach 100 points in order to max them out. This is important cause if we take a look over at Willard Networks, you are only allowed to select 3 skills and their max skill rating is 50. Even with bad administrative quality when it comes to events and event amount, we've got a number of people very close to 50 already.

You need to bare in mind that the ARPG system was designed for this sort of questing system which isn't the same as what Willard has, Willard doesn't have automated quests or pre-programmed quest lines for the player and nor' should it ever. That'd ruin the point- so it baffles me why the direction was to making a ARPG system and the answer I've found is because it's the only system you know and have played.
This is why you're failing.


So lets get down to reality, we have a system that requires administrators to make events and be the arbitor of how character actions succeed/fail- the system you guys have chosen do not reflect that. You know what system does though?
1610766445716.png

Pay special attention to the description of what TRPG is and find the correlations- this is where you've missed the mark and what you need to find. Now get out there and do some research! Because we can't have god do all the work!
 

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Here is some research material:

Hell, fuck it.

All of your major francises came from this kind of shit btw.
Success breeds success.

Fallout 3 breeds fallout 4 which breeds fallout 76
1610767576823.png
 
I've really liked the idea of having a tabletop roleplay experience for HL2RP, even with all of the issues, it's been really really fun. If adjusted for more of a tabletop-style, tweaking, more inspiration taken from the grassroots, I think it'll be great.
 
Tabletop sessions are organized, concrete sessions that occur when a specific group of people is ready for them to occur. HL2 City roleplay fundamentally besets this idea. There will not always be a GM able to watch over your RP. That's what the coding is for. Are there problems with the code that need solving, though? Yes.

Your only real solution is to create your own Tabletop-style event server with a group of dedicated players that can make it to (basically) every session. That's not possible in a public server with over 50 players at once.

It is true that a Tabletop-style system is the best form of RP. There's more human interaction, more realistic scenarios, etc. But a true Tabletop system and a public, high-population CityRP are mutually exclusive methods for running a server.
 
I think a more table-top styled HL2RP server indeed be amazing- and also unique. It would require a phenomenal amount of effort, but I think if done correctly it would be absolutely fantastic.
 
I think a more table-top styled HL2RP server indeed be amazing- and also unique. It would require a phenomenal amount of effort, but I think if done correctly it would be absolutely fantastic.

They already exist. I'm part of one, but it's private and has a fairly strict vetting process. It's not hard to start your own, though. You just need a server, a schema, someone who knows how to GM, and maybe a dev. Low player slots means low cost, and so on. You don't even have to have a good weapon pack. /roll is already a command in most schemas.

What you need more than anything is a group of passionate people who want to tell a story. You can then do so... even in a Discord chat room.
 


^ This guy runs a Persistant DnD world of hundreds of players, it runs 5e and the lore is hand-crafted to the bone.
The volume of players isnt a issue and a cap of 70 players is rookie numbers for many. Even I have ran a persistent large-scale campaign. He originally had only 7 GM's managing a hundred players. He now has 40 GM's managing Hundreds of players.

It's about how you go about doing things and knowing what to do / how to handle it. (Admin/GM Quality)

The thing is Vertix, you don't need to craft a system that requires 100% admin supervision all the time and most situations don't need to have 100% admin supervision. Example:
Regular roleplay doesn't require supervision (This takes up 95% of the players time.)

Take a population of 70 assuming that ever stayed consistent, about 10 of those players are likely to do something that requires supervision and a single admin that knows his cheese is going to be able to handle that. Cool thing about these systems is they have self-regulatory systems you can ingrain into them between player interaction.

All that needs to be done is to create a homebrew system that is more applicable for what we want to go for, very simple thing to do and that isn't a exaggeration.


As I've said in the past, administration is the life-blood of your community. If you've not got admins that arent worth their salt in the first place, you're fucked no matter what system you roll with.
 
I've really liked the idea of having a tabletop roleplay experience for HL2RP, even with all of the issues, it's been really really fun. If adjusted for more of a tabletop-style, tweaking, more inspiration taken from the grassroots, I think it'll be great.
straight up doesn't work in a 20+ player server

there's a reason DnD/other tabletops are limited to smaller parties and made specifically for it

not only that, but DnD and the like aren't made for PvP scenarios

like DnD, you need a smaller group in order for this sort of thing to work
 


^ This guy runs a Persistant DnD world of hundreds of players, it runs 5e and the lore is hand-crafted to the bone.
The volume of players isnt a issue and a cap of 70 players is rookie numbers for many. Even I have ran a persistent large-scale campaign. He originally had only 7 GM's managing a hundred players. He now has 40 GM's managing Hundreds of players.

It's about how you go about doing things and knowing what to do / how to handle it. (Admin/GM Quality)

The thing is Vertix, you don't need to craft a system that requires 100% admin supervision all the time and most situations don't need to have 100% admin supervision. Example:
Regular roleplay doesn't require supervision (This takes up 95% of the players time.)

Take a population of 70 assuming that ever stayed consistent, about 10 of those players are likely to do something that requires supervision and a single admin that knows his cheese is going to be able to handle that. Cool thing about these systems is they have self-regulatory systems you can ingrain into them between player interaction.

All that needs to be done is to create a homebrew system that is more applicable for what we want to go for, very simple thing to do and that isn't a exaggeration.


As I've said in the past, administration is the life-blood of your community. If you've not got admins that arent worth their salt in the first place, you're fucked no matter what system you roll with.


The communities for DnD and GMod are vastly different. Everyone -- admin, player, gamemaster, or otherwise -- is biased. In GMod, it is much, much more likely for a player to cry bias when an admin decides something should go wrong in their RP. In DnD, since everyone is fairly close, and there's an actual story being told... complaints like that aren't the case. There is no story in CityRP, and that's the point. CityRP is literally "A Day In The Life Of Half-Life 2". There CAN be stories within, but 99% of servers do not have a "Big Storey" to tell.
 
They already exist. I'm part of one, but it's private and has a fairly strict vetting process. It's not hard to start your own, though. You just need a server, a schema, someone who knows how to GM, and maybe a dev. Low player slots means low cost, and so on. You don't even have to have a good weapon pack. /roll is already a command in most schemas.

What you need more than anything is a group of passionate people who want to tell a story. You can then do so... even in a Discord chat room.
I can't believe I never knew these were a thing.

I love the Half-life universe, ergo I love Half-Life Roleplay. I've said it before that you don't need scripts for good rp, which is where my large post a few days ago kinda stems from. I came back to hl2rp for Willard, but before that, I did tabletop, WoW RP etc, and ofc there's no weapons there, it's all rolls... or even better, it's emotes - people play their character realistically and failure/death isn't an OOC problem. WoW isn't much like that anymore though tbf lmao
 
The communities for DnD and GMod are vastly different. Everyone -- admin, player, gamemaster, or otherwise -- is biased. In GMod, it is much, much more likely for a player to cry bias when an admin decides something should go wrong in their RP. In DnD, since everyone is fairly close, and there's an actual story being told... complaints like that aren't the case. There is no story in CityRP, and that's the point. CityRP is literally "A Day In The Life Of Half-Life 2". There CAN be stories within, but 99% of servers do not have a "Big Storey" to tell.

Here is the thing Vertix, if I let a group of dark roleplayers define my serious roleplay server you'd likely tell me to defiantly not do that. The same arguement exists here in this case. You're always going to get push back for somthing new, just look at Willards TBC system and the amount of push back it's received- yet the TBC wasnt ever the reason why people left the community. Infact it filtered alot of players out that werent appropiate for the standard we wanted.

As for admin bias? Theres GM/DM bias in DnD too my man. It's all about WHO you select as a admin/GM/DM because both things are predicated on social constructs between the playerbase.

Why do you think so many servers decline in the first place; because the administration was shining rainbows out their ass? Why set the standard we want to set by the standard of servers we don't want to be? The entire reason Gmod rp has been declining for years is because the only thing people manage to do is set the standard of the past as their standard and no one has the balls to go further.



Hundreds of examples of shit DM's/GM's in PnP games. Bad administration isnt unique to garrysmod, nor are trash players. This is a worldly constant we just have to work with.


1610772436338.png
"What do you say guys? You can sit on Neb arguing with admins. Or you can sit at your computer and do something that matters."
 
Last edited:
I'm going to dump these threads here for references.
https://willard.network/forums/threads/on-the-topic-of-skills.842/
https://willard.network/forums/threads/the-wn-skills-system-expansion.897/#post-5910


-Now for my actual post-

Here is your issue with skills. Every skill available incentivises grinding because it hard locks a reward until you reach a specific skill. Let's take medicine as a example:
*You can not use a medical kit unless you reach 20 medicine.

Here is your second issue with skills, every skill with the exception of speed and guns revolves around itemization in the script. The only way to raise crafting is to obtain more script items, the only way to raise bartering is to buy more script items and the only way to raise medicine is to use script items. It's a very itemized system and this is why the system cases annoyances.


-Now, I am going to talk about the fundamentals of why you guys made such a system.-
You are quite frankly conditioned to only think about systems through other systems which you've had experience with. In order to break this- I am going to explain why the systems below exist and thus' why you've made a mistake in implementation.


The Skill system from the Elder Scroll Series
View attachment 2500
This skill system is designed for a game which is a Action Role-playing Game ,

What is a Action Role-Playing Game (ARPG)?
View attachment 2501

In short, you're using a system that doesn't sync well with your other gameplay systems. A roleplay servers main theme isn't hacking through a sewer or killing things but instead on the roleplay itself. Not only that, but when it's come to combat ever since the inception of Garrysmod, it's never been Real-Time-Combat unless S2K has been declared which I personally despise.

Now, I think it's important to state this: Many of you people don't even know where roleplay came from, your closest reference to such things are things that were designed in a frame to not be role-playable but more of a action experience. Hell, Fallout 3 is most of your goto systems when it comes to a skill system.

View attachment 2502

Believe it or not, but this system is more reminicant of a older system but it's still designed for ARPG's. The prime difference here is that it allows a player the freedom to assign skill points but it still misses the formula that you need for a Roleplay server. You guys took from the fallout series the action point system that came from Fallout 1/2. This system is useful, but for other reasons.

Let's talk about combat for a brief moment.
View attachment 2503

Above is the fallout 1/2 skill system, most people pay attention to the skills on the far right, the far left and bottom. But no one I assume has paid attention to what truly matters as it's the outcome of combat being the statistical information in the centre. This is where things get interesting because this is where we get closer to home and start finding our roots into a Roleplay game of old.

Each stat there represents something vital about your character, in fallout's case it's how effective your Armor is, how many actions you can perform in the middle of TBC. Your carry weight (How strong your character is.) How hard your character punches, how much you are naturally resistant to poison or radiation. How fast your sequence is (Sequence = Reflex to act before anyone else can.), how fast you naturally heal over time and finally your critical strike chance. There is something else here that everyone doesn't seem to respect but it's actually the Hit Point system and the level system. Both exist for a reason and people should take the time to consider that.

As we move back onto skills, I want you guys to take note that the skills arent represented as raw values but as percentages. The skill system in fallout 1/2 did not limit what you could do in a action, it only changed/modified how successful you would be in a action with bonus's and penalties involving said actions.

An example!
If a player wishes to hotwire a care, the developer of the scene believes this task to be moderate in difficulty and so he provides the player a success threshold of 60%. If the player manages to beat 60% in his skill or a roll, he is able to hotwire the vehicle. The player then makes a 1D100 roll in order to try and succeed.

Something interesting about the Fallout 1/2 system is that skills go beyond 100% and all the way upto 300%. This is because you can critically succeed in a spectacular way when doing something. There isnt a hard fail or a hard success. If I reload a M1 Garand, I have afew chances of things happen. I have a chance of getting Garand Thumb where my thumb is stuck in the chamber. I have a chance of reloading the Garand properly, I have a chance of reloading the Garand so quick and effectively that I am able to fire quicker then the guy who intends to fire back at me can. These are but simple additional conditions that the previous systems lack in terms of success or failure and thus' what Willard subsequently lacks in terms of character uniqueness.

Back to Basics!
One fundamental aspect to these RPG games you guys have played is the fact that a developer has sat there and had to hand-craft every storyline quest just for you to play. Here is but a few examples of what I am talking about.
View attachment 2504
View attachment 2505

The developers of such systems and games intend for you to go on a adventure of a minimum of 59 quests just to max out your characters stats, now do some basic cognitive function and you'll realize that Fallout 3 has 13 skills, all of these skills will be maxed out by your 59th quest and are intended to reach 100 points in order to max them out. This is important cause if we take a look over at Willard Networks, you are only allowed to select 3 skills and their max skill rating is 50. Even with bad administrative quality when it comes to events and event amount, we've got a number of people very close to 50 already.

You need to bare in mind that the ARPG system was designed for this sort of questing system which isn't the same as what Willard has, Willard doesn't have automated quests or pre-programmed quest lines for the player and nor' should it ever. That'd ruin the point- so it baffles me why the direction was to making a ARPG system and the answer I've found is because it's the only system you know and have played.
This is why you're failing.


So lets get down to reality, we have a system that requires administrators to make events and be the arbitor of how character actions succeed/fail- the system you guys have chosen do not reflect that. You know what system does though?
View attachment 2506

Pay special attention to the description of what TRPG is and find the correlations- this is where you've missed the mark and what you need to find. Now get out there and do some research! Because we can't have god do all the work!
Spittin fucking facts
 
Why set the standard we want to set by the standard of servers we don't want to be?

Because none of those servers had to close down inside of three weeks or risk two years of dev work going down the drain. None of them had to do a full overhaul of every system they have, top to bottom, after two years of planning. None of them had to have their playerbase yelling from the rooftops to adjust some very basic foundational rules that every other community views as common sense.

Both @Bennyfridge and @cunt nicely explained as to why these systems simply start to fall apart on an open-ended server but as it stands these systems are a cornerstone of what makes WN different - so something clearly has to give.

WN's own self-made hype is its biggest obstacle to becoming successful and long-lasting. It is certainly capable of being both, but not as it stands.
 
Why do we have to mention "we need to be different from neb", "or we can be like dying neb" or whatever neb-related zinger/comment in every goddamn thread lmao. Is that literally the only thing that dictates server direction and policy or something?
 
Why do we have to mention "we need to be different from neb", "or we can be like dying neb" or whatever neb-related zinger/comment in every goddamn thread lmao.
True.
Is that literally the only thing that dictates server direction and policy or something?
This implies that the Community Managers are the ones saying the above.
 
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