Albertossic's Antics

[ItsLiam]

To start out this thread, I will quickly mention that I will not be arguing with anyone underneath this. If you're not involved, please don't reply or do anything with this, this isn't for you. Now, to start this thread. The reasoning *why* I'm making this thread, is not because 'I disagree' with what happened ICly, no albert. It's because you've broken the rules, multiple ones in my eyes. I could name any of these, honestly. However, I'll start with the first one. In the Civil Protection guidelines and rules, it states that you cannot charge someone for something they didn't actually do. Now, you charged me with a V415 and a V28, let's start with the V415. As you approached us, I was holding onto Michael Yards ( @Sushi082 ) his shoulder, I wasn't doing anything other than holding it. You asked me to apply, as I did, I let go of the man's shoulder, and he walked away. Let's even ignore the fact he punched me in the jaw a minute ago, let's ignore that part and just focus on this. I did nothing wrong, right? Next second, I'm charged with a V415 for apparently showing 'physical aggression to another citizen'. What? I'm sorry Albert, can you explain this to me? The rules state that you shouldn't charge people for crimes they didn't commit, don't they? So why am I getting charged here? 10 SC is a lot, man. Now, to continue. The V28 charge (Felony Incite) After roleplaying not being able to hear the officer correctly, due to my character being drunk and him not believing what just happened. He gets into a little talk with Anders Stauning ( @vilhjalmrf ) and Jonathan Douglas ( @Hayden ), after, to my own OOC shock as well. I get charged with a V28, for... Being a clown? I'm sorry, I've just been charged twenty Social Credits (Note, the max u can GET in one day), for two charges I didn't even commit. As he told me 'You got any other quips', I just simply stated [2024-11-03 06:18:00] [IC] Watima Nakata: Sure, I'm getting inside. Meaning, I did not want to talk anyone, I complied, and I walked inside of my store, all is well, right? Well, apparently not. He follows me inside, and as I start roleplaying cleaning my bar he stunbatons me in the back. That's fine, whatever. Now, what happened afterwards, is where I started suspecting OOC malice was at play. Not only did he refuse to elaborate on how hard he was kicking me, he was being a massive dick to me. While, I was just trying to know if he kicked me hard or not. Do I roleplay my teeth being kicked out? Do I roleplay him tapping me against my face to check if I'm awake? Well, I guess we'll never know. Not only that, he admitted for the second time he's just charging me 'because he feels like it'. Literally admitting to the bad faith being shown. And wouldn't you guess it, he leaves a literal minute after this. Honestly, to me? It just feels like he was annoyed at something and vented it out of me OOCly. ​

This is even more annoying considering I had such an awesome time due to @Divine doing his loyalty inspection. Genuinely one of the coolest things that have happened with CivPro in recent memories, especially what @Maine did to my char. However, this whole situation above simply left a sour taste in my mouth.​

 

[Hayden]

I can move this to player reports if needed but at the moment player reports permissions are broken so Albertossic would need to have all of the information here relayed to him via screenshots, along with any back-and-forth that may occur. But that's perfectly fine, I can relay information if need be, it's just a hassle and makes things harder for both parties.

 

[boots]

I can move this to player reports if needed but at the moment player reports permissions are broken so Albertossic would need to have all of the information here relayed to him via screenshots, along with any back-and-forth that may occur. But that's perfectly fine, I can relay information if need be, it's just a hassle and makes things harder for both parties.

Ideally, it'll be handled in a place where both parties can see and post.

 

[albertossic]

Hello!

First of all, I would like to say that it is disheartening that after my concerns about ItsLiam constantly and without fail escalating every in-character interaction that he comes out of with a material disadvantage into OOC complaints, I now get to defend myself on the public forum in the wrong complaint section.

Second, to state first and foremost, this is an in-character interaction, and any accusation of failRP on my part should go be reported in player complaints or directly to the Overwatch leads, not construed as a genuinely petty attempt to complain about my unrelated function as a gamemaster. The only thing my being GM affected in this situation is that my knowledge of the rules meant I felt comfortable in disallowing you an opportunity to divert a run-of-the-mill CP encounter into an endless stream of LOOC bickering, like you are notoriously wont to do.


Third, I refuse to acknowledge these laughable complaints. I have not done anything that merits OOC punishment and I do not intend to argue on this with you. I will expand on the situation only for the benefit of showcasing your total willingness to sabotage roleplay and player enjoyment to the rest of the staff team:

If you believe there is some OOC guideline barring Civil Protection players from charging people for crimes they did not commit, then you must have a fundamental misunderstanding about the way the faction operates, which is especially strange given that you were accepted into the faction not even a week ago and have presumably read the guidelines.
And don't think I don't know what line of the guide you are referring to, either: I am perfectly aware which section you are referencing, I simply do not believe you for a second that you in good faith read that section as "It is FailRP to assign a false charge to a player."

You were charged because my CP, stressed after having to perform two mock executions, came to see why his subordinate stopped prosecuting the disturbance he just reported, only to see Yards struggling to get out of Watima's grip.
If my CP was in a better mood, you would have been charged with Attempted Crime. If you had the capacity of convincingly portraying a citizen character, instead of immediately turning to the player next to you and discussing the charge IC in an extremely blatant attempt to debate me into changing my verdict, and decided to not treat my CP with the sort of fear which it is his job to induce, you would not have received a second charge.

Felony Incite is the charge handed out for speaking out against the Combine, which your character did by questioning the verdict he received from my cop, which I want to underline he only did because you were OOC dissatisfied with taking away any malus from any roleplay interaction ever and did not find yourself capable of not bringing your grudge in-character. If you think I hold some sort of frustration about you that is so strong I need to abuse my powers as CP to vent it but also so restrained I can limit myself to a 10 SC deduction, I think you will agree you make some contradictory claims about the way I conduct myself.

I left a minute after this because I do not owe it to you to stand around online after interacting with you for plausible deniability. I was tired, and after having to avoid arguing with you in LOOC, I was also exhausted. I aborted the beating as soon as possible because I could already see where it was headed.

I refused to "roll strength" because I am entirely aware of your long, long record of devolving even the most minute "fights" into a total farce of out-of-character bickering, and I value my time enough to not waste it going over "kicking hardness" with you in LOOC in the middle of my roleplay.

I want to close with the remark that only a week ago, a light jab at your unprofessional and demotivating tendency to escalate every, without fail, every single roleplay interaction that does not go swimmingly in your favour to OOC complaints, either on the fourms or with your friends in the staff team, prompted you to implore me to "Get your dick out of my mouth" before embarassing yourself with a characteristic tantrum on discord.
I hope this is an indicative example of the sort of conduct I was criticising.

Let me know if there was anything further!

 

[Cocohop]

Hello.
I've let the other CT Leads know to read through this thread.
As I don't have a CivPro WL atm, I would like input from @Ozzekiel and/or @ClapTrap if possible.

 

[ItsLiam]

Hi albert, I will refuse to comment on your message seeing as you love to bring up things that happened days ago, if not a week.

This report is about what happened there, nothing else.

If you have nothing productive to add, I guess leads can look at this.

 

[Hayden]

only to see Yards struggling to get out of Watima's grip.

This didn't happen. Watima was resting his hand on Yards shoulder. Watima literally said that Yards had punched him.

...albeit Yards rolled a 0 on this, but Liam let it happen anyways.

[2024-11-03 06:16:28] [IC] Watima Nakata: Why did Yards even try to punch me anyway?

There was no struggle, no grappling, just Watima with his hand on Yards shoulder in a supportive gesture after the two had both gone through a pretty stressful hour or two.

Additionally, regardless of his previous arguing, which quite a few people agree often had valid complaints- even one of your coordinators, what exactly is /rolling going to lead to? Either you roll low or high, he's not going to try to take you down if you roll low given the fact you had another officer behind you, he just wanted to see how strong your kick was so he could RP that accordingly.

This... quite frankly left a poor taste in my mouth after even witnessing it and not being subject to these verdicts, after a great night of really good RP.

I did also have my own negative interactions caused by you not long prior, but that's not related to this report so I won't go into detail about them.

 

[albertossic]

This didn't happen. Watima was resting his hand on Yards shoulder. Watima literally said that Yards had punched him.

I didn't say it happened, I said this was what my cop saw happen. Be that as it may, even if I had literally made up a charge from scratch, that would not change anything about the invalidity of this abuse report.

what exactly is /rolling going to lead to?

Endless LOOC arguments which Liam is notorious for and which I do not have to subject myself to against my will. I was engaged in around two hours of providing an engaging experience for a handful of characters, both yours and Liam's included, and the implication that my refusing to take a break out of RP to debate the aerodynamics of a kick to the head detracted so materially from your experience is frankly a bit of a slap in the face.

I did also have my own negative interactions caused by you not long prior, but that's not related to this report so I won't go into detail about them.

Then don't bring them up? Coming into the abuse report as a Server Council member to give a little tease about all the complaints you could be having about me but restrain yourself from airing is detractive and unprofessional.

 

[ItsLiam]

Endless LOOC arguments which Liam is notorious for and which I do not have to subject myself to against my will. I was engaged in around two hours of providing an engaging experience for a handful of characters, both yours and Liam's included, and the implication that my refusing to take a break out of RP to debate the aerodynamics of a kick to the head detracted so materially from your experience is frankly a bit of a slap in the face.

I asked for a simple roll.

I'm sorry, but if it's too much for you to /roll, so I can properly roleplay if you're kicking me hard, or not. Why are you even in the Creative Team?
I know you have your own problems with me, I don't care about that. When I'm on the server, I expect people to be unbiased IC. So if I'm asking you nicely to roll strength, why are you being to defensive? I don't understand the reasoning why you're being like this. I find it incredibly childish from you..

I didn't say it happened, I said this was what my cop saw happen. Be that as it may, even if I had literally made up a charge from scratch, that would not change anything about the invalidity of this abuse report.

As you can see, and as has been noted before. The only reason why it was in abuse, is because I couldn't put it in player reports.

I probably should've put it in complaints, and thus, as you can see, it is there now.

 

[0xNiklas]

speaking out against the Combine, which your character did by questioning the verdict he received from my cop

Honestly. "Why am I being charged, Officer? I didn't do anything? vs "Fuck the Civil protection, they charge people for no reason!" is a big difference.

 

[Ozzekiel]

Corruption Guidelines 5. You are allowed to falsely charge for non-terminal crimes with adequate reasoning.

Non-terminal crimes being violations that wouldn't get somebody killed for committing, it isn't out of the question for Civil Protection to frame/falsely charge you. I don't know what specifically happened to VICE-1 before he went to confront Watima, but (in-character) overwhelming stress is an adequate enough reason for a unit to jump the gun on a charge.

A ten social credit deduction is (personally) overkill unless there were any negative interactions between Watima and VICE-1 preceding this, but from the logs provided, the person playing Michael Yards went to the length of describing getting Watima's hand off his shoulder as "squirming free". Michael also didn't defend him either when he initially got charged for 415 so I don't think there was any OOC malicious intent at the time.

The discussion of the civic disunity being valid or not aside, there was not a second false charge. I would go as far as to say VICE-1 sugercoated the severity of Watima's response: the most applicable charge was 507, which is an entire tier above 28 in severity.

While it could've been intended as an expression of surprise, it could've just as easily been taken the wrong way by certain people; even more so when another character affirmed Watima was being a clown. It's important to realize that you are not dealing with real life, protect & serve cops that need to take jabs with professionalism. The person Watima said that to is a morally dubious individual who has the ability to make people disappear, and whose actions are guarded from consequence by a mask. Trying to fluster him even if that wasn't the plan probably wasn't the best idea.

As for the short LOOC confrontation: both of you are members of Civil Protection and I'll say that both of you were in the wrong.

Albert, your roleplay was pretty dull. No /me for going into Watima's datafile, along with over-deducting for a crime that you weren't 100% on (the 415) instead of facilitating roleplay, maybe through a small investigation or a more creative method. You also could've just explained the depth of the kick for the sake of keeping the roleplay moving instead of stonewalling. As a direct result, you pissed Liam off, you pissed yourself off, and you pissed whoever else was watching off.

Liam, you could've also asked more concisely and the 'chat can he do this' remark was unnecessary. The answer is yes, nobody is required to roll unless an overseeing gamemaster dictates it.

@albertossic @ItsLiam
Neither ClapTrap or I are shticks for having our faction members be demure at all times OOCly. Your whitelists aren't full-time tourism-hospitality jobs and you are allowed to have your disagreements as long as you don't blatantly offend anybody which is why I'll just be telling both of you to not make a habit of the things I mentioned above, because then your whitelists will be at risk.


@Neonity @Memesky
@Cocohop @Badger @Deverinity @Mr House

Staff is held to degree of professionalism so the relevant parties will need to review this on their member's accords.

 

[ItsLiam]

Would like to add this. Yards punched me, and a minute later I’m getting a charge.

Not to forget the total lack of roleplay. He walked up on us, me and Yards weren’t in a scuffle, in any skirmish or fighting. He did /datafile watima and just charged me.

The other violation, I was able to not get my SC removed, as I talked to the other cop. I won’t elaborate here on what was said, if you want to know dm.
However, such a violation on my file is something that will ultimately fuck me over in the long run.

I think the charges were extremely premature and especially considering what happened to Hayden's character as well, it's too much in too little time.

I think we’re setting a scary precedent that we can just charge people for whatever if it isn’t a death sentence. “Within adequate reason” doesn’t really say a lot. I can get punched in my face, but because I am holding onto someone’s shoulder, I am the one being charged for physical aggression.

Not to forget, my char *simply questioning* how they got charged got me with another charge.

He wanted both a 10SC removal and a fine. The maximum amount for the charge.

Also, judging by the above messages from Albert, he (as an i1) has no clue how charges work, as he said I was let off “light” with “only” 10SC per charge.

 

[Ozzekiel]

I think we’re setting a scary precedent that we can just charge people for whatever if it isn’t a death sentence. “Within adequate reason” doesn’t really say a lot.

It's a scary setting and we're not changing that wording any time soon because we cannot possibly write down every potential scenario in which a Civil Protection character might be inclined to falsely charge somebody. It was within adequate reason and I feel no need to reverse it. I already addressed everything else you said.

@albertossic @ItsLiam both of you carefully read my original reply and my criticisms on each of you because I'm not adding any more onto this. You don't have to kiss and hug but whoever keeps dragging on this made-up beef is getting dewhitelisted

 

[Cocohop]

Good day, gentlemen.

After having spoken with CT and staff leads, and listening to the wise words of Mr Civil Protection, we have decided the following:

- No GM/CT powers were used, so this does not fall under CT abuse
- FL confirmed that RP was of an acceptable quality

As Staff & CT are held to a higher standard of Roleplay, I am going to methodically go through each point raised.

For the charges, as I am not a CivPro expert or Lead, I defer to Ozz's judgement that there have been no issues. As far as I can see, in the charging segment, there are no issues. I am aware of the IC Circumstances that made Albert's CivPro on edge, as is Liam & Hayden I believe.

When we get to the re-education part, I have the following qualm: The fact that Albert refused to clarify how hard his kick was when prompted. There is a pragmatic limit here - And it's odd that I have to go through it, but why not. 'I kicked you quite hard / somewhat hard / with some gentleness' would have sufficed. *If* the other party began arguing semantics, such as angle of attack or 'was this with the boot or the sole', then *yes*, it's fine to disengage.

Note that this is a minor note on Roleplaying quality.

Liam, I would like to urge you to solve this via Discord DMs, to either Albert or a CT Lead first. This, frankly, did not deserve a thread.

Lastly, and more importantly - Staff & CT work together. I implore both of you to try & have a professional working relationship, whether you like or hate each other. Assume positive intent.

 

[ItsLiam]

I don't hate Albert in any way, just hope that's clear lol