Suggestion Script whores, guns, hardcore and RPG. Fixing the true problem.

[Taliazure]

Combat System, Balance, and Core Gameplay Concerns


To the Willard Networks Development Team and Server Staff,


I’m writing this with full sincerity and appreciation for all the time and effort that’s gone into developing Willardia. I’ve been a committed player for quite some time and have seen the community evolve through various updates, factions, and balance changes. That said, there are some persistent design and gameplay issues that many of us in the community feel are holding back both the quality of combat and the roleplay experience.


This message isn’t meant to criticize, but to give constructive feedback and propose adjustments that would improve the server’s balance, immersion, and overall player retention.

---

1. ​

There’s a term that gets thrown around a lot: “script hoarder” or “script whore.” But this isn’t really about players being greedy, it’s about a system that rewards them for playing that way.


Let me explain:

If I pull up with a pistol that does 2 to 7 damage, and I’m fighting someone with 100+ health AND armor, I don’t care how well I roleplay or how tactical I am — I’m dead. It’s not about skill. It’s not about outplaying someone. It’s about the numbers. Players chase “meta” weapons because they have no other option. If you want to compete in combat, you’re forced to farm scripts or lose.

Two good games to compare this system which is incredibly similar: Destiny 2 and the division, both games where adquiring the highest gear is a main mechanic important to fight higher level enemies and bosses, attemptign to fight a high level boss with a low tier weapon will produce damage values of 1 or 5 dmg to a enemy with more than 1000 hp. Impossible, such is the system we use...


This leads to a frustrating loop:

• Players hoard scripts and meta gear just to survive
• Staff/devs/gms/Faction leaders/etc or players accuse them of being “script hoarders”
• But the only alternative is getting wiped out with 5+ seconds of lag and a gun that might as well shoot marshmallows

"The system creates the behavior. Don’t punish the player for adapting to survive."

---

2. ​

This may sound blunt, but I believe it’s true:

"No one wishes to die and loose their character in 0.5s" Thus my response is:

If someone wants to engage in firefights, they need to accept the consequences of realistic combat. If you don’t want to risk dying fast, don’t play a fighter. Play something else.

The current model promotes long, spongy shootouts where skill barely matters, and everyone survives too long unless they’re instantly one-burst-tapped by a broken gun. That’s not tactical or immersive, it’s frustrating.


What the community actually voted for was a more hardcore, lethal experience, where positioning, smart play, and aim matter. Let players:

• Die quickly when they mess up
• Kill quickly when they outplay
• Respect weapons as deadly tools, not sponge ticklers

If people don’t want that, they shouldn’t queue up for combat-heavy characters. Play a civilian, a loyalist, or something else. But the people who opt into combat roles should understand that lethal stakes are part of what makes it fun and rewarding.

yesterday I was the victim of this while aiding @Sync in their event I was faced agaisnt 4 cps and he was able to see how I did little to nothing with a junk weapon, while wearing heavy armor, 2 cps with pistols were able to make quick work of me while I used a rifle that fires bolts dealing 2-7 damage per shot. It was horrible.

Further down the line I was allowed to use a shotgun for the second attack and then I was able to cause some damage and even then Cps were able to all push in, I put 2 shots into one's face at close quarters they lived, able to unload a mere pistol on me and kill me. The system is flawed. It's not about tactics or skill but about gear.

as it says in-game
Willard Written by Atle in the prompts:
"If you can't do the time, don't do the crime"

---

3. ​

Right now, weapons suffer from excessive spread and trembling that makes aim almost irrelevant. I can line up a shot, control my movement, and fire cleanly and the bullet still goes into the void. This isn’t just bad for immersion, it feels actively punishing and horribly frustrating!!


I propose:

• Drastically reduce (or eliminate) random bullet spread
• Remove shakiness
• Increase recoil instead greatly, especially for SMGs,

That way, players with better aim and recoil control win. We stop rewarding randomness and start rewarding mechanical skill. This is how games like Squad or Arma handle gunplay, and it works beautifully.


Let me be clear: I’m not asking to remove progression. I’m asking to rework it.


Right now, weapon skill affects damage output, which directly screws over new players, passive RPers, or anyone who hasn’t grinded shooting. A pistol doing 3 damage just because I’m at 20 gun skill is not fun or fair.


Better solution?

• Let weapon skill affect reload speed, recoil control, or draw time
• Keep the grind, but stop gating combat viability behind XP

Players should succeed or fail based on gameplay — not spreadsheet stats. ( THATS FOR YOU GAMEPLAYER TEAM AKA ROBERT, you and your spreadsheets... paper =/= reality)

---

5. ​

Grenades currently feel like a joke. They:

• Do very little damage unless they land perfectly
• Are borderline impossible to aim, even with practice, for they only start counting down once they touch a surface. (That is how the grenades work for some reason)
• Bounce in weird ways.
• The greandes of half life are not made to kill but to destroy cover, however 90% of cover is not destructible mechanically for they are part of the map or need admin supervision.

In real tactical play, grenades should:

• Force enemies to reposition
• Clear tight spaces
• Punish turtling

Right now, they do none of those things. We require a second version of a grenade, something like the Russian F-1, made for fragmentation aka anti-personnel.

---

6. ​

It’s immersion-breaking when someone pulls out a full-sized rifle from nowhere. It also creates unfairness in combat or RP situations, like assassinations.


Suggestion:

• Pistols = always concealed, even when equipped
• SMGs = visible on hip/back unless stored in large bags
• Shotguns/Rifles/Snipers = always visible on back or sling

This change:

• Adds realism
• Makes concealment a gameplay decision, not just a script choice
• Makes pistols valuable tools for stealth or urban fighting

---

7. ​

The performance has taken a major hit lately. Players report:

• Hit registration bugs
• Massive server lag in active fights
• Scripts not working as expected under stress

It’s clear the engine is under strain — but some of it may be legacy code, unused systems, or bloated event logic.


Please consider:

• Auditing and removing old TBC systems no longer used
• Rewriting or optimizing the weapon and damage system
• Reducing background script calls in firefights

Every player I know would prefer fluid gameplay with fewer features over a laggy experience full of broken ones.

---

8. ​

I’ve been in multiple scenarios now where regular players are held to S2RP standards — while staff or admins bend or break them without consequence. This undermines the whole concept of fairness and immersion.


If S2RP matters:

• It should apply to everyone, including staff characters
• Staff should not cut off RP to insert themselves unless absolutely necessary
• RP outcomes should never be ignored for convenience or internal bias

Players lose trust when they see admins skip rules they enforce on others.

---

Final Thoughts​

This is a lot, I know. But I’m writing it because I care about this server. The people here are great. The world is immersive. The stories we tell are special.
But these systems — combat, balance, performance, fairness — they’re the foundation. If the foundation is shaky, everything else suffers, we've failed to see that and we continue to implement changes that will not work. Rules will not change or fix these issues, for the problem is in the foundation itself. We need to rework the base of it.


Please:

• Make weapons scary again
• Reward aim, not grinding
• Give pistols a place
• Let grenades be useful
• Clean up the bloat
• And treat staff like players — not above the rules

If we fix the systems, player behavior will follow.


Thank you for reading this far <3


Sincerely,
Taliazure (long-time player & contributor)

 

[MrTuki]

The server wont be fixed until one or two headshots kill you.

Everyone is a bullet sponge.

 

[Mango]

Sometimes it's easier to ignore or minify the problems a community has, and this thread does the opposite.

I know that @M!NT was working on a new base of weaponry, so here I shamelessly tag him.

Thank you for the honesty.

 

[Eviction Notice]

• Die quickly when they mess up
• Kill quickly when they outplay
• Respect weapons as deadly tools, not sponge ticklers

Should hark back to the olde' Clockwork days where a headshot typically instantly kills you, unless you're wearing a helmet, which is an item we HAVE!

 

[Goulashnikov]

Since TBC will never come back and we're forced to suffer with S2K, I agree with everything here. Especially gun skill affecting your skill with a gun, as opposed to magically making your bullets hurt more.

 

[Salty]

I know is hated but, I'm a TBC lover. But, I agree with pretty much everything you said. Very well said and written.

 

[VaherNitsen]

I figure as someone who's played a fair amount of S2K on WN, and more than enough on Nebulous during the Squared iteration, I should hopefully have some amount of opinion to give with relevant experience.
I wanted to initially go over Point 2 only, but I got carried away.

To go over Point 2:

I prefer long drawn out firefights, myself.
It allows those who aren't especially inclined for S2K to have an opportunity to actually assist, rather than go back to the days where you get melted for peaking for a singular second.
The TTK is fine where it is, to me. Even if you changed it to be more, or less, there would still be meta weapons. Why get an SMG when a pistol can tap fire quicker? Why get a rifle when an SMG dumps rounds quicker? It isn't fun, far from it. Plus- if you're in a more drawn out firefight, you get to RP more, which I am greatly a fan of.
To go over the comment, 'don't engage in a firefight unless you're ready to handle the consequences', I believe that is already a given. Making people die quicker isn't fun, it just makes them less inclined to engage in a firefight because they will have less of a chance. Imagine someone is on the run from the cops after whacking an officer with a pipe? It's already a death sentence in the making- the cops have guns and they're probably not very fast at running. The TTK would just make it suicidal further- hell, it makes anything rebel related suicidal since cops have a reliable source of MP7s and numbers in general.
Besides- TTK can be decreased by engaging in concentrated fire. Don't like that OTA soldier barreling down? Four guns all at once ought to do the trick.

In other words-
Quicker TTK is fun in a CvR server where that's all that goes down, and consequence is minimal. It's still frustrating, but if it's just an NLR with easy access to guns after, you can live with it. I prefer to have a chance to engage, pop shots, and take cover and yell to my pals. It's hectic, it's scary, it's fun.


Now, as for the rest of your points:
To address Point 1, from my point of view- it's gonna happen regardless. People like watching numbers go up, and if they earned their stuff, it's not like they're gonna just give it away half the time. This point doesn't have any real assistance to the discussion in my eyes- it's a problem that will exist until the end of time, and I'd almost go as far as to say it isn't a problem if the stuff is actually being used. Call me a fool for such a claim, but if it's been earned, then it is allowed to be kept.

To address Point 3- Most pistols have a base damage of 12, to 15,up to 18 if I recall properly on the USP. The armour pen value does affect how much is transmitted, but that affects all weapons. I just wanted to point that out.
Anyways- skill affects the handling of a gun. Having gone through the rebel loop of building a Helsing, thinking it would be solid, and then thinking 'wow this sucks', I do agree that the handling can be rather atrocious. However, if we're considering realism like you have considered in your later points, it would make some level of sense. If you're new to handling guns, you're not going to be the most familiar with them. You say that the skill basis screws over newer players or people who usually PassiveRP. If newer players want to spec into guns easily on start, the character creation tab lets you assign several points to any given skill- one of those being guns, and aside from that, shooting NPCs increases the skill extremely quickly.
But even disregarding that, pistols and shotguns happen to be the weapons with which players who are low on skill will be handling first. Due to the availability and the skill range, and considering your comment prior, pistols seem to be rather good choices for any engagement, especially in tandem.
I do vouch for making Junk weapons have a lower skill requirement though. They're worthless against anything other than NPCs or unarmoured opponents, so it's not like it would shake up the game too much.
Decreasing the shakiness a bit I'm all for. It sucks, even when your skill is above the level needed to handle a weapon. The suggestion to increase recoil for SMGs is something I'm against, however- a trade-off already exists for lower damage but higher bullet count. Having higher recoil would be baleful, though with a higher TTK it would be a slight assistance to a balanced board, which I assume you were accounting for. Don't like it for the balance we have now, in other words.
I can't comment on the skill affecting damage. It feels inconsistent to me so I can't say in any definite terms.

To address Point 4- There is no Point 4. I've screwed up lists before too, so no biggie.

To address Point 5- I've engaged with grenades before, and they are no joke. Regular fragmentation grenades can take you down from 100/75 to like, 20/0, if it goes off within a few feet of you. Incendiary just.... kills you. Smoke and flashbangs are utility, so they do utility stuff- though the smoke grenade might be bugged? It sometimes does two smoke clouds, and it doesn't disappear for a while. Don't know on that one.
Grenades do behave oddly, though, like with how they bounce sometimes, and how they appear above your crosshair when you throw them, so they go higher than you want. That should be dealt with, but the comments on punishing turtling, clearing tight spaces, and forcing reposition is something grenades already do. I'll concede that my example prior may have been a once-off, but I think any rational player would get out of the way of the grenade if they can- and sometimes, they can't.
But.... I will agree that grenades seldom see use, due to their rather high crafting requirements, and general low-range. The only ones I consider using are Incendiary since I know that'll do the job.

To address Point 6- I like the idea of concealed pistols and such, with the concession for rifles and other 2x4 weapons to be concealed in a suitcase that you'd have to carry in hand. That would be very neat- but I think that's more of an RP thing, over mechanical. Do like this suggestion though, but if it were considered I would encourage testing of how it behaves in a mock-up of RP environments. It may prove to be an unnecessary addition, and potentially make inner-city rebel activity even harder to do.

To address Point 7- I'd be insane if I disagreed with that! Fixing performance would be wonderful... You have no idea how many times I've dumped a full magazine into NPCs and I saw two damage numbers. Evil, evil creatures... especially fast zombies and headcrabs.

To address Point 8- I believe that is an issue that should be brought up in a complaint against said staff member, or explained to them directly. I think the S2RP system is flawed anyways- like, come on. Civil Protection rations give how much of a stat boost? I can take a drug to have THIS much of a stat boost? Yeah, no thanks- I'll just S2K instead. I think that's just an extreme oversight mechanically, since if you're mugging a cop in S2RP you're likely already on the backfoot- not to mention that once that cop goes down, the entire city's force is coming down on you. On the other end of that, if a cop doesn't eat their greens and someone loaded on ever Strength enhancing drug in the world shows up, it's over for them. This is uninvolved to the discussion, so I'll leave it there.

Well, that's all from me. I've probably explained some stuff poorly, or talked on Point X in Point Y's section, but this should hopefully get across the majority of my opinions on the matter.
Oke, bye bye!

 

[Genny]

​

 

[dno]

Bring back Scar please

 

[Taliazure]

To go over Point 2:

I prefer long drawn out firefights, myself.
It allows those who aren't especially inclined for S2K to have an opportunity to actually assist, rather than go back to the days where you get melted for peaking for a singular second.
The TTK is fine where it is, to me. Even if you changed it to be more, or less, there would still be meta weapons. Why get an SMG when a pistol can tap fire quicker? Why get a rifle when an SMG dumps rounds quicker? It isn't fun, far from it. Plus- if you're in a more drawn out firefight, you get to RP more, which I am greatly a fan of.
To go over the comment, 'don't engage in a firefight unless you're ready to handle the consequences', I believe that is already a given. Making people die quicker isn't fun, it just makes them less inclined to engage in a firefight because they will have less of a chance. Imagine someone is on the run from the cops after whacking an officer with a pipe? It's already a death sentence in the making- the cops have guns and they're probably not very fast at running. The TTK would just make it suicidal further- hell, it makes anything rebel related suicidal since cops have a reliable source of MP7s and numbers in general.
Besides- TTK can be decreased by engaging in concentrated fire. Don't like that OTA soldier barreling down? Four guns all at once ought to do the trick.

Let me respond point-by-point as you did:

---

Point 2 – TTK and Combat Flow​

I don't totally get where you're coming from with preferring longer fights. That makes sense for people who enjoy a more RPG style of game. My issue isn't with drawn-out fights existing, it's that right now, they're the only kind of fights we really have and they're heavily dependant on Gear.


The current balance overly favors longevity and tankiness, to the point that the pacing becomes too slow, especially when you're using anything that is an SMG or pistol. You mentioned that changing TTK won’t fix metas, but that’s kind of the point. The meta exists because the current TTK is so slow that you’re forced into using fast-firing, forgiving weapons. Raising the damage floor or slightly lowering TTK wouldn’t remove skill expression or meta, but it would reward accuracy, positioning, and timing a lot more than it currently does.
Also, to your point that “making people die quicker isn’t fun”, I think that’s only true if the consequence outweighs the agency. If someone’s peeking carelessly or running around exposed, they should die quickly. If they want to play like that then i'm afraid they will learn the hard way. Saying “but then people will die in 0.5 seconds” is only a problem if you're expecting to play COD while also roleplaying a weak, underarmed rebel.

Pick one. Otherwise, don’t start a fight if you’re not ready to end it or get ended.


I think you nailed it when you said concentrated fire can still bring enemies down. That’s true. But that just further supports my point...there’s a huge difference between “burst damage from coordination” and “the fundamental damage values being too low for solo skill to matter.” I think both should exist.
I appreciate your reply. You definitely have the experience, and your perspective is valuable here, especially coming from both WN and Neb. I want to expand on the core point you raised about TTK because it's the most pressing concern from my view. But I also have experience and I also played Nebulous.


I understand the appeal of drawn-out firefights. On paper, they sound immersive, tactical, and more forgiving for people who aren’t as skilled at S2K. But the issue is this: it's already happening, and it's not a positive thing. You can get instantly melted if someone’s holding even a slightly better weapon. Junk weapons, for instance, are so underwhelming that a pipe deals more reliable damage. That’s not an exaggeration, just the other day I landed two point-blank shots to a CP’s chest with a junk rifle and did 2 and 7 damage. I would’ve been better off using a fire axe, which deals 37 per hit. That’s not okay.
Right now, it's suicidal to engage unless you’re holding the “correct” gear, which defeats the entire spirit of balanced combat. There won’t be a "meta" if things are done properly. Guns shouldn't be designed to outclass one another outright. They should be situational tools. That’s the goal of my suggestion: to flatten the power curve and place more weight on player decision, making and positioning rather than what gun they brought.


If four CPs rush you and you’re holding a pistol, even from the best cover, you’re already dead. Not because of poor decisions, but because your bullets don’t do enough to punish them for rushing. They can overwhelm with zero fear because they know you can’t output enough damage fast enough. That’s a huge problem. A higher TTK, meaning lower damage, just makes it worse. It encourages brainless rushes over tactics. Higher damage punishes poor aggression. It forces CPs and OTA to act smartly, not just W+M1 through a door.

I'm sorry but if you wish to play something like that, do us a favor... go play dark rp because that's how it is over there. You bunny hop left and right and dump 2 mags into a SWAT officer to kill them while rdming around the map. That's the TTK that fits you, then you can go RP there.


You mentioned enjoying RP during gunfights, and while I respect that, I’ve personally never seen it happen on WN, not in three years. Not once. I’ve played on Neb too, and even there, unless it was strictly S2RP, gunfights were just gunfights. The notion of squeezing RP into the middle of suppressing fire and grenade spam just doesn’t match the reality of how these fights go down..?

The problem is that the current system inherently puts players at a disadvantage unless they are geared up with meta equipment. It shouldn't take 80% of a mag to bring down one CP. It’s unrealistic, and worse, it actively discourages meaningful engagements. It rewards mindless pushing because there's little consequence to being reckless.


And the irony is, Willard already has a built-in bleedout system. You can go down and get revived. You get second chances. That’s a system that should encourage higher damage, because it’s not as punishing as Neb was, where one headshot meant character death. I played there. I know how brutal it was. But guess what? All guns could kill. A pistol could three-shot an OTA to the head, two-shot a CP, one-tap a human. Gunfights were intense, chaotic, terrifying, but fair. You could hold a position and actually fight. I killed 7 Cps with just a Mp4 by holding in a hallway and firing through the door when I heard them try to run in, I died because I ran out of ammo and they kept deploying. God it was amazing, the combat was Euphoric and fair.


Seeing a SPAS-12’s buckshot tear across a hallway and watching someone crumple felt real. That’s what I want to bring here. But here, if you're not using the “right” gun, it doesn’t matter how well you play. You lose because your bullets do nothing and god forbid your FPS is low and you can't tap fast enough to fire that pistol rapidly...


You should be able to punish poor play. The gear should not determine the outcome nearly as much as the player’s choices, positioning, and awareness. Right now, the system heavily favors those with numbers and meta loadouts. I want to shift that power back toward the player.


That’s the core of my suggestion.

---

Point 1 – Gear Hoarding & Use​

You said, “people earned their stuff, they won’t give it away,” and I agree that’s part of the problem. The issue isn’t people using their gear—it’s that the system encourages hoarding it because TTK is so low-impact and consequences are so high. Why bring a rare weapon into a fight that takes three minutes to kill someone, when you might die anyway and lose it for nothing?


PvP gear being hoarded is a symptom of poor mechanical reward loops. If fights were a little riskier and faster-paced, then people might start using better tools more often, not less. Scarcity makes people play safe. But if TTK were faster and the loop was tighter, the incentive to use what you’ve got would go up because it might actually matter.

---

Point 3 – Gun Skill & Handling​

I agree with you on a lot of this, especially regarding junk weapons and pistols. You're right: they should be viable early-game tools, and the skill curve on them makes some sense.


But here’s the issue: the system pretends to allow newbies to engage, but then mechanically punishes them with bloated recoil, inconsistent damage, and no reliability unless you grind skill first. That’s why I think the floor needs tweaking. I’m not saying a fresh character should laser someone at 30 meters. I am saying that someone with “okay” stats who hits a good shot should be rewarded with a kill, if they take the risk to use that weapon and they do it well they should be rewarded not displayed with a 7 dmg from a headshot... and be instantly mowed down by a spas 12 dealing 12 damage per pellet from a Rank Leader.


You also said that increasing SMG recoil would be “baleful.” I get that. But right now, SMGs are straight-up better than most rifles and pistols, the mp7 is the current meta, it's incredibly op. You can laser people across the map and with it's fire rate? God almighty you can mow down enemies. You don’t sacrifice range, accuracy, or even recoil at all. So either we adjust the TTK upward and increase risk/reward for SMGs, or we reduce their accuracy a little to stop them from being the obvious meta.


You’re right that junk weapons are kind of trash, though. I think we agree more here than not.

​

---

Point 5 – Grenades​

Glad we agree that grenades do do their job when they land. But I still think their use is too rare wand that’s not because they’re weak, but because the system makes them clunky and punishing to use.


You called out the bugs (floaty arc, weird bounce, etc), and I’m right there with you. Even with a perfect throw, they feel inconsistent. But more importantly, their cost is too high for what’s effectively a “maybe it works” tool.

Incendiaries are great, yeah, but everything else feels more like a meme or a hail mary. If you’re going to die anyway, sure pull the pin. But if you actually want to win, you’d never waste one.

---

Point 6 – Concealment​

Glad you like this idea! I agree, it’s more of an RP idea than a mechanical one, but I think the utility of a system like this could be huge. Especially with more mixed settings like City RP with embedded rebels or undercover CPs.

---

Point 7 – Performance & Net Lag​

Massive agreement here. Half my complaints would go away if bullet registry and hit detection worked 100% of the time. That’s more of a backend fix, but I still think it’s relevant when we’re talking about perceived TTK and how reliable weapons feel.


Nothing like emptying a mag into a zombie and getting two numbers back.

---

Point 8 – S2RP vs S2K & Stat Disparity​

You’re totally right, this veers off-topic, but it’s very relevant to the underlying discussion. When people say “just RP it,” but then the system lets cops inject all together and overwhelm you and close down exits, it kind of forces people into S2K just to have a fair shot. We’ve all seen the S2RP scenes where the cop wins purely because the numbers favor them from the jump.


We had this with TBC, we been there before...this is well known.

---

Final Thoughts​

I don’t think we’re fully on opposite sides of this. You like long fights; I want those to exist alongside shorter, more intense bursts. You want gear to be used and feel meaningful; I’m saying it won’t feel that way until the pacing gives it a chance to matter. You don’t want to punish newer players with fast TTK—I agree, which is why I suggest raising the skill floor slightly too, a good new player should not be punished for having a shit weapon... but rewarded for knowing how to use it. Sadly right now, it's not possible.


Thanks again for writing this out. Solid feedback across the board. Let’s hope the team takes all our angles into account.


– Talia

 

[Taliazure]

Bring back Scar please

prime example of GEAR > SKILL.
PLayer gets on a high place with a meta weapon. YOu wana know what happened to this gun after THIS shotocp? It got removed... the scar was REMOVED because it was too op.. it's THE EXACT POINT I MAKE. The system is flawed...

 

[NanCi_]

There are three different pistols m1911, USP and the beretta all basically do the same damage but for some reason have different ammo counts. Why is a gun with 7-11 rounds doing the same amount as the USP. Some weapons are stupidly made especially when the mp7 can out damage the SHOTGUN at close ranges...



Also ur forgetting the fact that an axe when crit can do 95-105 damage. Out damaging all weapons so like... if you run a bs min max build 5 strength 3-4 agility with steak and drugs. You can just bs being a tank because anything is better than fighting with junk rifles when you can spend 40 credits on a steak that lasts 6 hours and drugs that will 2 turn anyone if not out right kill them.

Talias basically saying the obvious.

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[Taliazure]

exhibit A of guns are fucked and even Melee can be better:
1 hit of a melee weapon 105 dmg
one shot of a mp5: 20 dmg.
Yeah no... don't try to argue, this shit is literally exhibit A

 

[VaherNitsen]

Well, the back and forth of iterating points begins.
Please note that I am considering all points from a teamfight aspect, rather than a solo engagement. It is my personal conviction almost all engagements should be considered as such- we all know the cops and rebels prefer to have numbers in fights.

I'll pluck out the main things I want to bring to light, starting with....

I'm sorry but if you wish to play something like that, do us a favor... go play dark rp because that's how it is over there. You bunny hop left and right and dump 2 mags into a SWAT officer to kill them while rdming around the map. That's the TTK that fits you, then you can go RP there.

That's just being needlessly rude and isn't constructive to anything. Wanted to address that first, since it irked me from a discussion stand point.

Now, onto addresses of importance:

My issue isn't with drawn-out fights existing, it's that right now, they're the only kind of fights we really have and they're heavily dependant on Gear.

This is not true and you contradict yourself. Fights can start and end quick or slow, in any TTK- such as when neither side wants to aggress, or both sides are holding defensively, or when one side knows they have the numbers to go for it regardless. The latter would occur anyways- perhaps with a note of hesitation.
Plus..... didn't you say initially that...

The current model promotes long, spongy shootouts where skill barely matters, and everyone survives too long unless they’re instantly one-burst-tapped by a broken gun. That’s not tactical or immersive, it’s frustrating.

I was allowed to use a shotgun for the second attack and then I was able to cause some damage and even then [the four] Cps were able to all push in, I put 2 shots into one's face at close quarters they lived, able to unload a mere pistol on me and kill me.

You stated very negatively against drawn out combat entirely, and given the lack of full details in the second one I'm inclined to believe you had minimal armour, or none at all. Please correct this, if I am guessing wrongly.
You also state that fights are only drawn out. From what I can tell, this isn't true, based on your prior comment regarding the shotgun, and I do feel that does seem a bit unfair if it was one officer magdumping you, but I am operating on the idea that you were engaged with several.

Pulling from an example of my own for a longer fight and a shorter one, we were engaged with bandits in a house and had to advance. Using tactical reasoning, suppressing fire, and communication, we were able to advance within the building with zero losses on our side, and once within we dispatched of all the bandits extremely quickly- due to concentrated fire from two or more members of our squad.
In another bandit assault mission, we entered the building, and cleared out the forces inside rather quickly- due to concentrated fire from two or more members of our team, such as when a bandit was holding the stairwell with an SMG and peeked out momentarily.

I feel these examples also show that people do play reasonably, and smart, already- to go over something else you said you wanted to encourage people to do.
It is my honest opinion that people won't play smarter, they'll just play dumber- something you should full well be aware of as well. There's a reason the P90 rush is a common tactic for newer players in CS- because it's a lot of bullets, very fast, that do a lot of damage, very fast.

Fights will be heavily dependent on gear regardless. Hipfiring an MP7 point blank is just gonna become better. This point is null, and if you meant something different, it isn't able to be drawn from this comment.

The meta exists because the current TTK is so slow that you’re forced into using fast-firing, forgiving weapons. Raising the damage floor or slightly lowering TTK wouldn’t remove skill expression or meta, but it would reward accuracy, positioning, and timing a lot more than it currently does.

And the meta would stay the same. Again- faster TTK would just mean the faster gun is better. I don't disagree that the consequence of good positioning would be felt more, but it isn't able to balance out the fact that it would also reward 'bumrushing' with high DPS weapons, if your opponent can't dish out the same damage- or has fewer numbers(for example 5 Aggressors vs. 2 Defenders). In that case- well, the same would happen even in lower TTK to be fair. All forms of TTK have an eb and flow to them, and a lot of it has to do with how much fire you can get on one target in a given time.

To choose an example that might happen on any given day, a CP at 100/50 with an MP7 engages two rebels at 100/25 with USPs. They have semi-effective cover and are all at an equal skill level, fighting in a small closed environment like an apartment.
Higher TTK: The two rebels plug the cop with holes as there are two of them, taking out his armour and bringing him to 52/0. One of them got tagged badly, being brought to 72/0, the other getting scratched and taken to 98/12. Both parties re-engage, and the CP knocks out the lower HP rebel, being dropped himself just after. The remaining rebel is at 22/0, having barely won against the odds- with more cops soon to follow.
Lower TTK: The two rebels plug the cop, but alas, the MP7 spits rounds faster than any pistol, and takes down one of the rebels immediately. The CP at 68/0, the other rebel at 92/0 as he had taken cover. The CP rushes the remaining rebel, strafing around him and killing him.

Granted- the second scenario is something that could happen, and likely would happen in scenario one as well. See what I mean?
It's the same outcome. Sure, the fight will go quicker- but it doesn't encourage anything in terms of smart play or practical combat skill. People should be considering that already anyways, to be honest- but I digress. This has been a minimally helpful rant.

Also, to your point that “making people die quicker isn’t fun”, I think that’s only true if the consequence outweighs the agency. If someone’s peeking carelessly or running around exposed, they should die quickly.

If someone wants to engage in firefights, they need to accept the consequences of realistic combat. If you don’t want to risk dying fast, don’t play a fighter. Play something else.

You didn't really convey such with the tone in your initial comment, given its rather 'absolute' nature.
I will state again- people already risk dying fast by entering combat. That's how combat functions. If someone peeks carelessly, or runs around exposed and they get lit up- they already are on the backfoot. If you peek and take a shotgun shell to the face, you're already on a lower footing, and will probably die faster. On the other hand- if you peek quick and get behind cover in time, they might not even hit you at all. One of the more 'what-if' examples, but I don't mind it.
In any case- being stupid will get you punished more often than not already. If you're charging a Spikewall with a rusty club, I don't think a lower or higher TTK will affect the outcome.

You mentioned enjoying RP during gunfights, and while I respect that, I’ve personally never seen it happen on WN, not in three years. Not once.

To be fair, it's minimal RP. We're not talking like, '/me applies a bandage to the cauterised area of skin, bringing the IV down and inserting it into the arm'. It's more like '/r CPs pushing left hall.' or '/me takes a moment from the fighting, slotting out damaged kevlar inserts and replacing them with fresh ones' and '/me takes a moment from the fighting, yelling "Packing mags!" as they start loading rounds.'. Stuff like that. In events we get more time to do stuff, depending- but when you're on a time limit you don't really do as much as you would like. Medics pop off though, freeloaders...

Right now, the system heavily favors those with numbers and meta loadouts. I want to shift that power back toward the player

Forgive my crass wording, but I must-
THE PLAYER IS GONNA GET SMOKED TALIA. HE'S DEAD! FOUR COPS RUSHED IN AND WHAMMIED HIM.
Now, to iterate with some level of... not that.
It will anyways. I see where you're coming from, but it will anyways.

I killed 7 Cps [on Nebulous] with just a [MP5] by holding in a hallway and firing through the door when I heard them try to run in

To be fair, if all 7 stacked in at once I think at least one would have made it and gotten to you. MP5s were ridiculous, but there's still a limit on how many bullets kill so many people.
I will say that the MP5 is just a... not awesome gun on WN, though. The pen and low value for damage makes it on par with like, a Handmade AK. I'll come back to this in a later point.

If four CPs rush you and you’re holding a pistol, even from the best cover, you’re already dead.

Also wanted to say to this you'd die anyway unless you're hitting headshots like it's high noon. The netcode probably would nullify at least four of them but you get the idea.

They can overwhelm with zero fear because they know you can’t output enough damage fast enough. That’s a huge problem.

I agree. I know I was yapping on it earlier, but I do want you to know that I do agree. Same goes for rebels, of course. I don't think a faster TTK would solve the issue, but it could assist it. Then again- if you're holding a doorway with another lad and there's something in the way, you can probably even the odds.

It shouldn't take 80% of a mag to bring down one CP. It’s unrealistic, and worse, it actively discourages meaningful engagements.

To be fair- and call me insane for it- I think it discourages shotcops. I think that's good for both parties.
As for meaningful engagements, I know I'm not gonna go in the street to shoot John Cop. I'd rather do that in an expo because I know that's more meaningful.
Now- as for the amount of bullets to take down a cop, it can be ludicrous, but I'm pretty sure bullet counts are made to mimic Half-Life 2's damage, at least partially. After playing through it on Hard again, that's how it seems to me.
I personally jive with it, but that's my preference

Why bring a rare weapon into a fight that takes three minutes to kill someone, when you might die anyway and lose it for nothing?

I fail to understand your point. What do you mean here? Forgive me- but this is more evocative of games like Rust or Escape from Tarkov, not WN. If I'm going into a fight, I'm bringing the best I can muster because it may very well be my last. Gear fear doesn't exist when you're on one life- it's use it or lose it, as one could say.
Except when OOC exceptions apply, then it's a matter of OOC exceptions.

“people earned their stuff, they won’t give it away,” and I agree that’s part of the problem.

People keeping stuff they earned is fine if it's being used, rather than if they are just hoarding it. Besides, as stated prior, people like seeing numbers go up. The issue won't fix with a faster TTK. I feel that this may be a matter of personal perspective on how gear is used, though, so forgive me.

But if TTK were faster and the loop was tighter, the incentive to use what you’ve got would go up because it might actually matter.

I feel this can go either way, as some people will send it all in, and others won't. It isn't a catch-all effect, surprisingly. This is something that could only be gleaned with testing.

the system pretends to allow newbies to engage, but then mechanically punishes them with bloated recoil, inconsistent damage, and no reliability unless you grind skill first.

To be fair, it's like one event with a bunch of Zombies or Antlions to reach 30 in Guns, and I think that encourages good RP through going on 'training' excursions- at least, when people ask to do so. This is something that should be encouraged more in my opinion, but I don't really have a strong opinion either way.

the mp7 is the current meta, it's incredibly op. You can laser people across the map and with it's fire rate? God almighty you can mow down enemies. You don’t sacrifice range, accuracy, or even recoil at all.

I was actually unaware of this, given my perception of the MP7. I've only been using the MP5 thus far, and greatly prefer it. I used the MP7 in a combat mock-up, and preferred the MP5 to it, myself- but if what you say is true, then the MP7 should have higher spread the further the target is away.
Speaking on the MP5, it should be boosted somewhat damage-wise to compare with the MP7 in some amount. I feel that we should have a look at weapons that are deemed ineffective and give them a once-over, rather than a faster TTK catch-all for everything.

You called out the bugs (floaty arc, weird bounce, etc), and I’m right there with you. Even with a perfect throw, they feel inconsistent. But more importantly, their cost is too high for what’s effectively a “maybe it works” tool.

Don't have anything to say on the grenades. They behave oddly and cost too much in general for anyone reasonable to consider. I'd rather just make an Incen.

exhibit A of guns are fucked and even Melee can be better:
1 hit of a melee weapon 105 dmg
one shot of a mp5: 20 dmg.
Yeah no... don't try to argue, this shit is literally exhibit A

I don't even know what to say to that guy. Or the people who whacked him. He wasn't even shooting half the time- wagering that if he actually started shooting as soon as he saw them it would have gone differently.
The damage is insane though, that much can be said. This isn't a normal combat scenario, one must also note.
In other words- what feels like a cherry-picked scenario to get the point across, still shows damage is busted for melee. Failed upwards, one could say.


Now.... to get to the root of the points I've made- I think we just prefer different gameplay.
I like to get into firefights, but I also like their length of time. I also like that I'm not gonna get iced instantly, but I'm not gonna rush down an enemy position like I'm a P90 Silver 1. You seem to prefer quicker skirmishes with fast hammer-downs, and also don't want to rush down an enemy position like a fool.
I prefer coordinated efforts with my allies- we're not Gordon Freeman, after all. You seem to prefer lone players with an exceptional knack for S2K lining them up and knocking them down. I don't think that's particularly helpful to a healthy server environment, but being the guy everyone wants on their squad could be cool.
It's just a matter of perspective, and from my perspective- where I have mostly been considering engagements that I would personally partake in- a higher TTK seems preferable. Most of my considerations have been for expos, events, or maps that aren't City 24.... so, hopefully that should elaborate my points better.

But- enough yapping from me. I think the majority of issues listed will remain present regardless of TTK. It's just how players play. And- regardless- I think a higher TTK is better for the server overall. Despite being John Rebel with my big bad guns, I'm simply not all in on the whole lower TTK. Playing slow is more fun to me.
That's all. If I've mis-iterated any points on my end I am not reviewing because I cannot be bothered. Please forgive this.

 

[Sushi082]

I'm not a fan of the idea of faster TTK because I really don't think it's fun for anyone but certain people that are good at shooting but I mostly want to post in regards to the MP7 comment, I got (in good meaning) made fun of for trying to spray Zombies at a distance in the E24 outland event. It very much did not nail them from...not even that far away. I'm not sure how people would be using it to laser people across the map.

It also got proven when we went up against some event rebs, we couldn't really do much since they had rifles and our SMG's couldn't accurately hit that far. So the MP7 is probably great at close range, def not long range. I dunno where that idea came from. That's all really.

 

[Lokstercoolwhip]

If people don’t want that, they shouldn’t queue up for combat-heavy characters. Play a civilian, a loyalist, or something else. But the people who opt into combat roles should understand that lethal stakes are part of what makes it fun and rewarding.

I think the issue with that is that alot of people who are currently playing WN quite regularly prefer it this way( Just looking at battle metrics and seeing who agrees and who opposes), so really the opposing side can make that argument for you if you don't like the TTK this slow?

 

[boots]

I don't even know what to say to that guy. Or the people who whacked him. He wasn't even shooting half the time- wagering that if he actually started shooting as soon as he saw them it would have gone differently.
The damage is insane though, that much can be said. This isn't a normal combat scenario, one must also note.
In other words- what feels like a cherry-picked scenario to get the point across, still shows damage is busted for melee. Failed upwards, one could say.

I do appreciate the points made in your post by a large margin. But I do have to say that in melee vs guns, melee S2K somehow always triumphs.

I don't know if anyone has the video of Xiao Chen-Ning's @Divine PK (I think the one that was later appealed)

 

[NanCi_]

I do appreciate the points made in your post by a large margin. But I do have to say that in melee vs guns, melee S2K somehow always triumphs.

I don't know if anyone has the video of Xiao Chen-Ning's @Divine PK (I think the one that was later appealed)

Shame you cant s2k with melee... imagine two homeless people wielding hatchets dragging the corpse of a bleeding CP

 

[boots]

Shame you cant s2k with melee... imagine two homeless people wielding hatchets dragging the corpse of a bleeding CP

If they shoot first, melee can S2K all they want

 

[NanCi_]

If they shoot first, melee can S2K all they want

eh hope the person ur fighting has terrible aim or the hit reg fucks up while you strafe around them