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We don't need Devwork and more shiny features, we need in game system reform.

  • Thread starter Thread starter RogueSynapse
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RogueSynapse

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Ever since the failed launch, the bulk of changes have come in the form of new updates to the schema and changes to the MMORPG systems that Willard offers. This wasn't the main issue that needed changing, it was the awful IC systems that were held together with the equivalent of scotch tape and super glue. Factions were in chaos and had no order, operational quality of Overwatch factions was inconsistent and terrible, and the experience of it all made the process of partaking in the server a chore. Since then there have been no major changes to faction leaders, faction policies, or any sort of modification to put these fears at ease. What @Merlinsclaw brought up about the contraband system just proved that aspects such as CP operational standards have hardly even been touched means that the next launch could just be a repeat where we have all new shiny UI and leveling systems but just as garbage faction operation systems.
 
Ever since the failed launch, the bulk of changes have come in the form of new updates to the schema and changes to the MMORPG systems that Willard offers. This wasn't the main issue that needed changing, it was the awful IC systems that were held together with the equivalent of scotch tape and super glue. Factions were in chaos and had no order, operational quality of Overwatch factions was inconsistent and terrible, and the experience of it all made the process of partaking in the server a chore. Since then there have been no major changes to faction leaders, faction policies, or any sort of modification to put these fears at ease. What @Merlinsclaw brought up about the contraband system just proved that aspects such as CP operational standards have hardly even been touched means that the next launch could just be a repeat where we have all new shiny UI and leveling systems but just as garbage faction operation systems.
In case you didn't notice:
  1. CP/OTA was reworked
  2. CCA has a new faction leader and directors that won't quit on us one hour after launch
  3. CWU was gone over as well, CRU merged into CWU
  4. Plans in the work for some new rebel stuff as well
So is there anything new/specific in this complaint or is this just a complaint to complain?
 
In case you didn't notice:
  1. CP/OTA was reworked
  2. CCA has a new faction leader and directors that won't quit on us one hour after launch
  3. CWU was gone over as well, CRU merged into CWU
  4. Plans in the work for some new rebel stuff as well
So is there anything new/specific in this complaint or is this just a complaint to complain?
1. Problem CP Leads and (interim) Co-Leads. Current guides are still unnecessarily dystopian. Yet to see how cops will act on the 2nd launch.
2. C.C.A still has the problem of being a closed up faction. B.O.I / 'HR Department' still exists and is likely to be a problem. Conformist System is a grind.
3. C.W.U seems to be unnecessarily top-down when lower positions in the faction should have some authority. Problems with how workshifts are ran.
4. Can't say anything for rebels, but I've heard concerns about the map expressed to me-- Primarily the fact that rebels don't have much of a place to escape to.
 
In case you didn't notice:
  1. CP/OTA was reworked
  2. CCA has a new faction leader and directors that won't quit on us one hour after launch
  3. CWU was gone over as well, CRU merged into CWU
  4. Plans in the work for some new rebel stuff as well
So is there anything new/specific in this complaint or is this just a complaint to complain?

Gone over, reworked, plans, these are just PR words. They lack meaning in any updates we have seen.
 
Gone over, reworked, plans, these are just PR words. They lack meaning in any updates we have seen.
1. Problem CP Leads and (interim) Co-Leads. Current guides are still unnecessarily dystopian. Yet to see how cops will act on the 2nd launch.
2. C.C.A still has the problem of being a closed up faction. B.O.I / 'HR Department' still exists and is likely to be a problem. Conformist System is a grind.
3. C.W.U seems to be unnecessarily top-down when lower positions in the faction should have some authority. Problems with how workshifts are ran.
4. Can't say anything for rebels, but I've heard concerns about the map expressed to me-- Primarily the fact that rebels don't have much of a place to escape to.

1. CP's have gone from no training and lore-based structure to now having structured trainings and a division system with ranks.
1a. Not exactly sure on the OTA changes myself but there were overhauls.
2. What do you expect the CCA to be? They're not exactly Libertarian Purists. The B.O.I aren't the "HR department" they're like the gestapo. Secret Police basically. Not just for the CCA but everyone.
3. CWU is no longer split between CRU, CIU and whatnot, now they're unified under CWU with specializations, there's a new system for workshifts as shown in the devblogs, stores are now being properly monitored for activity checks, taxes and so on.
4. The problem with previous C24 versions and most other HL2RP maps is that rebels all gather in the sewers and drain the city pop till its empty. C24_V3 attempts to fix this by making the sewers a dark maze-like place that on WN will be filled with spores. Rebels will have plenty of places to hide both within the city and within the sewers, except they can't just camp in the sewers like before. Not to mention, it takes two real time hours till you start dying from the spores and that's without a mask of any sort, so it's not exactly like you can't go into the sewers. Rebels are supposed to be focused more on the refugee RP within the city, and soon enough there'll be an outlands/canals server for those rebels that don't contribute to cityRP by sitting in the sewers like on other servers. That being said, the canals are really only going to be used for rebel supply chains, etc.
 
a division system with ranks.
Which should still be removed, namely a division system and all non-command ranks. : )

The B.O.I aren't the "HR department" they're like the gestapo. Secret Police basically. Not just for the CCA but everyone.
A fucking gestapo faction which was generally considered anti-RP early in the first server iteration. Not to mention being a concept that just begs for edgelords to shoot for it.

Oh, and the Core Administration, which holds actual administrative power and the ability to act as a vehicle for change, is completely dominated by community staff/staff held positions. Please change that. Somehow.
 
Here is my quick reply:

Check the updates spread around the site... they help. May sound hostile here but lots of this stuff that we have done is in the public domain and if you want to see it as just "PR talk" then its just your view in the end. Overhauls have been and gone for pretty much all the factions with lots of work has been done.

Civil Protection has gone through a massive reform with the introduction of new protocols, overhaul of Dispatch-CP interactions, changes to how citizens and CPs interact (If you read the guide, you will actually find that Cps are 'nicer' to civs than before, even being allowed to be a bit generous towards them), divisions and ranks added, contraband is being slightly updated again... and no you do not get killed over it like the other post I saw earlier claims, etc...

CCA has been through its rework with DOP gone, CWU separated, BOI updated to make sure it functions as it is supposed to this time, not its previous failure which was due to 2 members deciding to attack their own forces among some other changes you can find on their updates. The conformist system by the way... is not a grind... all you need to do for t1 to t3 is the old point system, beyond that, the rest of the tiers is pretty much RP your way up. It is not that hard to advance and doesn't take long either. It only takes 1-2 weeks for some people to reach T4 to T5 rankings.

Rebels have their own updates with them being given more dangers to work around, being given the smuggling system and hidden stashes and the map changed to make sure they do not all stay or sit in a single area. It is pretty much sorted.

OTA had its reforms, mostly minor ones since it didn't have many issues apart from being on too often and in plain public view, to which they have been given new models, Ordinal rank, charger and suppressor, new weapons, balances to their skills, change in how to handle escorting, guarding, etc. And so on. They will mostly only show up during Code red now.

Ah, a new post to respond to:

Which should still be removed, namely a division system and all non-command ranks. : )
Specialisations... that is what they are. Default, Defending or Assault specialization for CPs who want to head down that route. Just a quality of life thing more than anything else. Already explained this many times before though in discord DMs. Ranks also most likely staying because it keeps things organised which has already been explained to you many times before, if you want to keep ignoring what we tell you, go ahead. But anyway, ranks keep new members in a position to continue learning with limited privileges and the better they do and improve overtime, the higher up the ranks they go. New members should never be placed in the same rank as someone who has knows the faction inside out, that is my view and in all past instances I know of 2010 all the way to the modern-day, the system works.

A fucking gestapo faction which was generally considered anti-RP early in the first server iteration. Not to mention being a concept that just begs for edgelords to shoot for it.
They have been changed massively since that point. Just wait for the server to see how they are now.

Oh, and the Core Administration, which holds actual administrative power and the ability to act as a vehicle for change, is completely dominated by community staff/staff held positions. Please change that. Somehow.
CCA management is currently made up of 3 staff, 2 players. It is not completely dominated by staff since the majority of CCA members outside of its management is players. And completely would infer that staff fill pretty much all slots... which they do not otherwise it would be 5 staff playing as directors/city admins... to which is not the case. 1 of those staff members in management isn't actually part of CCA operations at all, just the faction oversight who needs to view all documents and channels relating to it all.

So it is split between the 2 and not staff dominant.
 
Which should still be removed, namely a division system and all non-command ranks. : )


A fucking gestapo faction which was generally considered anti-RP early in the first server iteration. Not to mention being a concept that just begs for edgelords to shoot for it.

Oh, and the Core Administration, which holds actual administrative power and the ability to act as a vehicle for change, is completely dominated by community staff/staff held positions. Please change that. Somehow.
I mean I have suggested that CCA have some form of elections but the management don't want that 🤷
 
So it is split between the 2 and not staff dominant.
I'm going out on a limb and assuming they were directly selected by staff and had no player input on getting their position in the Core Administration. Or even a proper application.

It's still weird that the CCA is completely filled with faction leaders and CCA management staff. Not a single position that doesn't require to lead a specific faction. Or the CCA as a whole.
1 of those staff members in management isn't actually part of CCA operations at all, just the faction oversight who needs to view all documents and channels relating to it all.
Have that as an entirely OOC role then! Don't need to give them an IC position of power for the role of OOC oversight.

Also, I'm obviously referring to the core administration here. Not any 'subfactions'.
 
I dont have anything to add not already addressed above. I will remark though, I'm not sure why some people hold an insistence that little has been done. Announcements, changelogs; roadmap and devblogs alone would show the contrary. Some stuff is still in progress while others are just difficult to show...but its pretty clear to anyone willing to see - alot has changed. Feedback is good, not trying to dissuade it, but I would recommend checking such things out if you feel not much has been addressed. I think you would have your mind changed.

There are going to be kinks, sure. But this is why the beta is coming before the full launch, so we can address them directly and comfortably. Any problems will be made clear then.
 
I dont have anything to add not already addressed above. I will remark though, I'm not sure why some people hold an insistence that little has been done. Announcements, changelogs; roadmap and devblogs alone would show the contrary. Some stuff is still in progress while others are just difficult to show...but its pretty clear to anyone willing to see - alot has changed. Feedback is good, not trying to dissuade it, but I would recommend checking such things out if you feel not much has been addressed. I think you would have your mind changed.

There are going to be kinks, sure. But this is why the beta is coming before the full launch, so we can address them directly and comfortably. Any problems will be made clear then.
monkey see monkey do
 
3. C.W.U seems to be unnecessarily top-down when lower positions in the faction should have some authority. Problems with how workshifts are ran.
I'm only going to keep to the CWU, as that's what I'm responsible for:

There was a lot of unnecessary faction bloat in Willard v1, which lead to a lot of bottlenecking and loose ends. This shouldn't be the case anymore. The CRU, CEC, DOP etc. etc. have now all been merged into the CWU, so that members can be much more generalized and it isn't a nightmare to track down relevant faction leads/managers for faction-related questions.

The basic member (after they've been trained) are allowed to run their own work shifts, freely assist with training new members, and take part in Civil-Restoration-based events (along with other maintenance, labour and reactionary roleplay that takes place as the server goes on). The labour sect also has very few actual OOC restrictions on rogue behaviour too, so you're not signing a character away if you want to join the CWU.

The purpose of the managerial sect is to ensure that this remains organized, oversee new-member training, update rosters and perform general quality control for the faction (alongside top-end business management) - I'm sure you can understand that I wouldn't want these permissions given out to anyone. After launch, I'll be keen to promote some more members to supervisory roles, so we're not bottlenecked like some factions were previously.

As for how workshifts are run, there are some workshift-related developments happening before launch. There should be terminals that make signing up to and receiving rewards for workshifts far simpler than it was before.

Hope this clears up some confusion - if you've got any more complaints or queries, feel free to reply/DM me on discord. The CWU Handbook is definitely a work in progress, and should receive some more touch-ups/clarity before launch; I just wanted to get one out so the community could see proposed changes, and managers could get an idea of what they'll be expected to do.

- Pineapple
 
I agree that no amount of fancy mechanics or scripts is going to sway me if I feel like the server doesn't properly accommodate roleplay or if the CPs are as shitty as before, but why is this a complaint? this is the kind of thread you make after you get to play on the server, not before we even get a launch date.
 
I agree that no amount of fancy mechanics or scripts is going to sway me if I feel like the server doesn't properly accommodate roleplay or if the CPs are as shitty as before, but why is this a complaint? this is the kind of thread you make after you get to play on the server, not before we even get a launch date.
People who don't follow non-development related updates are scared the server is gonna be the same even though what they're complaining about has been changed or is being changed already. If they actually followed faction updates and whatnot which are public, just not in a shiny devblog they'd see their concerns have already been seen to
 
Since it is a bit odd that this exists without a server around to actually show how the factions have changed, I am going to have to close and lock this thread with moving it to accepted.

The reason I am putting it in accepted rather than denied is simply that most of the issues here have actually already been addressed through the faction reforms which took place the whole of the last 2 months. CPs, OTA, CCA, Dispatch and even vorts have had their changes. All the updates are public for you to find and you will actually find the update logs for factions are at times, almost as big as the dev changes we make.

Not to mention the dev changes we are making is to add missing features which were in fact, causing issues for roleplay and causing issues for all factions including that of rebels. Dev work is actually just as important as changes to factions and IC systems. One does not take priority over the other.. hence why you always have different teams working on different things. Keep in mind this is also done as a hobby.

The leads have also been changed around quite a bit. Pineapple leads CWU. Redhot and Nick lead CMU. Ron, Spine and Gr4Ss lead CPs. Me and Rad lead OTA. Vort leads are pretty much the same except with Bort replaced by Chrono. Out of all of those leads... only 3 leaders are still the same as previously, all other leaders are new and different.

Overall, this complaint is not up to date with the current changes and still references V1 changes which everyone had a chance to give feedback to a while ago. The feedback forum thread closed at the end of Feb going into march. So it was open for a whole 5 weeks before closing which we got plenty of feedback from and used for our reforms.

Thread moved and locked.
 
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