CivPro PK Update

[MazuzaM]

Hello, so just recently I viewed the Civil Protection discord showing a new announcement, stating a change on how the Civil Protection will work around PKs.



To put it in short, basically, when you are PKd (Permakilled) on your Civil Protection character you will be allowed to retain your rank and only have to create a new backstory and Sterilized Credit reset.

In my opinion this is absolutely not fit for a Serious Roleplay server, here's a few reasons why:

1. To start off, you are taking away a pretty important part of a Serious Roleplay server such as Willard, death is final and the consequences are dire, if we all retain our ranks and only have to make a new character backstory then many players who are only attached to their position will start disregarding their lives more.

2. How are players supposed to rank up? If even in death a Command unit for example retains their rank then how can other players be given the chance to reach that position? Is there going to be a point where the WHOLE platoon will be rank locked at intention 3? PKs and Rank resets are necessary to keep the faction going with diversity, this way we are acting like a Semi-Serious Roleplay server where the ranks are an Out of Character thing which cannot be changed by death.

3. This is also likely to cause major inactivity among Command units, I was an Intention one myself and I decided to give up my char by RPing suicide and restarting as an Intention 5, if I retained my rank with the current policy and didn't bother to fill in a resignation my spot would've been filled for I don't know how long because not even death can allow others to rise up in the ranks. Let's not put the faction stability in the hands of Command units as they are an IC position with no OOC responsabilities besides unit profiling.

I'm not trying to stir trouble or anything, I am just stating that this change seems absurd and will not be good for the health of the Faction.

@Tsunami @Eviction Notice

 

[MazuzaM]

Let's not take away the concept of Serious Roleplay, it's fine when a Rank Leader retains their rank because they are apart of Faction management, but Command units are supposed to be diversified, some rising up with corruption, other Combine loyalists and many other backstories, keeping the same players who will likely make copy paste copy paste of their character is lame.

 

[Tsunami]

1. To start off, you are taking away a pretty important part of a Serious Roleplay server such as Willard, death is final and the consequences are dire, if we all retain our ranks and only have to make a new character backstory then many players who are only attached to their position will start disregarding their lives more.

"You're taking away a pret-" I'm not taking ANYTHING away. Death is final. When you lose a character, you lose the character. Your transfer remains the same rank. You are MORE than welcome to avoid taking this for your own personal enjoyment. If we wanted to static on this logic we would make it so every person restarted as a RCT if they died.

Hmmm... Now you got me thinking.

2. How are players supposed to rank up? If even in death a Command unit for example retains their rank then how can other players be given the chance to reach that position? Is there going to be a point where the WHOLE platoon will be rank locked at intention 3? PKs and Rank resets are necessary to keep the faction going with diversity, this way we are acting like a Semi-Serious Roleplay server where the ranks are an Out of Character thing which cannot be changed by death.

- Players believe that there are limited slots for command unit. There are not. We can add or subtract any amount of command units we want to from the game.

- Players believe that if a command unit dies, or if they coax them into dying, this will open an opportunity for THEM to become a command unit. This is not the case. You earn being a command unit by working hard and providing faction value, maintaining the usual points of command but also stimulating roleplay. Whether or not someone is a command unit doesn't effect another persons ability to become a command unit.

3. This is also likely to cause major inactivity among Command units, I was an Intention one myself and I decided to give up my char by RPing suicide and restarting as an Intention 5, if I retained my rank with the current policy and didn't bother to fill in a resignation my spot would've been filled for I don't know how long because not even death can allow others to rise up in the ranks. Let's not put the faction stability in the hands of Command units as they are an IC position with no OOC responsabilities besides unit profiling.

Hey Maz - That's your choice and you have the ability to do what you want. Correlation is not causation, people stop playing at command because they find that they've played to their capacity, thus us is a natural cycle I've witnessed over years and years and years doing this. You haven't been logged into the game with heavy engagement for a while, and that's perfectly okay because I want people to play at their capacity.

I'm not trying to stir trouble or anything, I am just stating that this change seems absurd and will not be good for the health of the Faction.

I wouldn't aim to make an adjustment that would intentionally harm the faction, sometimes there are experiments, I appreciate you providing your opinion. All this change was put in place to do is simple reduce the amount of paperwork or hasty promotions that have to follow a line up of deaths. If we didn't put this system in place, essentially no one of graded standard would be in command and stay in command.

Though you are upset about this change, there are many who aren't. We're going to continue feedback but the overall reason for doing this was to reduce the amount of shuffling pieces.

 

[MazuzaM]

Hey if you want to derank you're more than welcome to.

If I want a derank it won't change the fact that 90% of the people will likely not want to be deranked and keep their role, keeping the whole faction Rank Locked basically and there's no real consequences to death.

I'd like you to take this complaint seriously rather than handing off these kind of replies as it may harm the faction in the long run.

 

[Tsunami]

If I want a derank it won't change the fact that 90% of the people will likely not want to be deranked and keep their role, keeping the whole faction Rank Locked basically and there's no real consequences to death.

I updated my stances

 

[Tsunami]

basically and there's no real consequences to death.

They lose the following:

- Their social standing
- All the STC they've accumulated on that character
- The characters story
- all the connections made
- any items or arrangements procured.

They lose the things they actually care about. Rank in all this compares nothing to the story.

 

[MazuzaM]

They lose the following:

- Their social standing
- All the STC they've accumulated on that character
- The characters story
- all the connections made
- any items or arrangements procured.

They lose the things they actually care about. Rank in all this compares nothing to the story.

Then why not keep the demotion? If the rank is not cared about, then restart the cycle, or will we get to a point where 90% of units are i3s i2s and i1s because of rank locks?

 

[Tsunami]

Then why not keep the demotion? If the rank is not cared about, then restart the cycle, or will we get to a point where 90% of units are i3s i2s and i1s because of rank locks?

Right now, as we have it, there's no over-rank accumulation. But, let's imagine their was. What's the difference between i3 and i4? Essentially nothing.

The i3 is simply the median reach of what most players will achieve when they play Civil Protection. IT's right in the pocket, you have just enough freedom but not too much responsibility. The RP that transpires from both the i3 and the i4 are not difference.

I feel the main concern from this post comes from: How will new command units be appointed if none of them ever die.

I want to restate:

- There is no such thing as "Command Slots" we pick good players, specifically good roleplayers who can handle the task.

- A command unit dying does not increase the chance of someone else entering command.

- Demotions will be hand delivered on an as-is basis following punishment. Not just delivered automatically with NO RP in the face of failure.

- This is one change, and globally, it's necessary for management more so than the player. But fear not, it'll all come together and if you take ALL the recent changes, over time, I'm sure you will find that we've not taken away anything from the experience, only enriching it.

If we perceive this to be a real problem after an extended period of testing, we of course, are willing to change it. But we need to run the cycle and see how things go.

 

[MazuzaM]

The i3 is simply the median reach of what most players will achieve when they play Civil Protection. IT's right in the pocket, you have just enough freedom but not too much responsibility. The RP that transpires from both the i3 and the i4 are not difference.

It's about balancing, there would be no diversity if all units were the same rank.

- There is no such thing as "Command Slots" we pick good players, specifically good roleplayers who can handle the task.

Same thing as before, if there's too many then there would be little diversity and it'd be less fun imo.

 

[MazuzaM]

- Demotions will be hand delivered on an as-is basis following punishment. Not just delivered automatically with NO RP in the face of failure.

Also this doesn't make any sense, if a Command unit gets PKd in a sweep how can you demote him for failure with RP if the player makes a new character?

 

[Tsunami]

Let's see how the change goes, again, if we go through the run and interpret the system to be overall bad or impacting player enjoyment, we will revert it.

 

[Rabid]

1. To start off, you are taking away a pretty important part of a Serious Roleplay server such as Willard, death is final and the consequences are dire, if we all retain our ranks and only have to make a new character backstory then many players who are only attached to their position will start disregarding their lives more.

Sure, but cops also get forced into doing things like sweeps and dangerous patrols they can't opt out of.

Being punished on top of dying even an NLR feels like a pointless slap and a good way to demotivate cops. You weren't around in the first year or two afiak but trust me, people will powergame or pull every cheesy tactic they can to survive if their character is on the line.

At one point when PK's were extremely severe there were constant complaints about cops (and rebels) pulling incredibly scumfuck tactics to win during retaliation sweeps rather than losing their character.

 

[MazuzaM]

Sure, but cops also get forced into doing things like sweeps and dangerous patrols they can't opt out of.

Being punished on top of dying even an NLR feels like a pointless slap and a good way to demotivate cops. You weren't around in the first year or two afiak but trust me, people will powergame or pull every cheesy tactic they can to survive if their character is on the line.

At one point when PK's were extremely severe there were constant complaints about cops (and rebels) pulling incredibly scumfuck tactics to win during retaliation sweeps rather than losing their character.

Roleplay standards drastically improved compared to the first years, I've never pulled any cheesy powergamey tactic to save my char, if people do, that's what the staff team is for

 

[Divine]

Roleplay standards drastically improved compared to the first years

Not really… We like to look at ourselves as improving or falling, but we’ve always sort of been tidally locked. The quality hasn’t changed — there’s a few really good, and a few really bad, and the many many neutrals in between waiting to be radicalized (to good or bad roleplay). It’s not what has changed, but who does the good and the bad. Then we stick the finger at those who aren’t on our side.

Oh right, this is about CivPro rank losses. I’m kinda with @Tsunami on this one, people need to stop looking at cops as free do-overs. I used to think cops should lose their ranks too, kill them all! However, losing a character is not always about items or ranks, it’s about an unfinished story that you put heart and effort into that you can never continue again. You’re the author of a half-finished book that was burned to ash before your very eyes, right before you got to your own story's climax. It’s unsatisfying, and worsening the fall by kicking them while they’re down is not something that supports retention.

But, what if the poor souls who don’t die get rank-locked? Well, we (you) can hope the faction leader and management (rank leaders, MCP at times) keep things flowing. At least i4 and i3 really don’t matter in the long run, they’re meant to be filler roles.

 

[Tsunami]

Not really… We like to look at ourselves as improving or falling, but we’ve always sort of been tidally locked. The quality hasn’t changed — there’s a few really good, and a few really bad, and the many many neutrals in between waiting to be radicalized (to good or bad roleplay). It’s not what has changed, but who does the good and the bad. Then we stick the finger at those who aren’t on our side.

Oh right, this is about CivPro rank losses. I’m kinda with @Tsunami on this one, people need to stop looking at cops as free do-overs. I used to think cops should lose their ranks too, kill them all! However, losing a character is not always about items or ranks, it’s about an unfinished story that you put heart and effort into that you can never continue again. You’re the author of a half-finished book that was burned to ash before your very eyes, right before you got to your own story's climax. It’s unsatisfying, and worsening the fall by kicking them while they’re down is not something that supports retention.

But, what if the poor souls who don’t die get rank-locked? Well, we (you) can hope the faction leader and management (rank leaders, MCP at times) keep things flowing. At least i4 and i3 really don’t matter in the long run, they’re meant to be filler roles.

 

[Lab]

i agree with

 

[Bounter]

Sure, but cops also get forced into doing things like sweeps and dangerous patrols they can't opt out of.

Being punished on top of dying even an NLR feels like a pointless slap and a good way to demotivate cops. You weren't around in the first year or two afiak but trust me, people will powergame or pull every cheesy tactic they can to survive if their character is on the line.

At one point when PK's were extremely severe there were constant complaints about cops (and rebels) pulling incredibly scumfuck tactics to win during retaliation sweeps rather than losing their character.

I never played on Cop side, but why the HELL should Cops be Punished even LESS on PKs than us.

They already had it better, even with a demotion, since Cop by default is way better off (Better rations, authority IC and in RP, armour by default, weapons, many tools etc.) Than a starting off Rebel.

Considering other things retaining like the CP armour buff, it either feels very Combine sided recently, or Cops are so incompetent they need buffs.

 

[toby]

god I hate the local police force

 

[Elsida]

So CivPro loses:

STC
Relations
Weapons?

Rebels loses:

Weapons
Armor
Relations
Chips


Also let's not forget that the rebels are conditioned on the map loot so sometimes (Like on T7) it takes months to even get a weapon. Yes with the new game+ of the rebels is "easier" to get started but for that you need the Rebel leads to decide.

I hope this change gets reverted bc it feels unjust.

 

[MazuzaM]

Cops are so incompetent they need buffs.

It's not about cops being less skilled in S2K, Civil Protection revolves around Roleplay, the majority of the characters don't want to get into S2K both ICly and OOCly.

However I do think it is unjust for the rebel side and will also cause overflooding, I don't like to see every cop with the same rank and Command units, recently opening tab has every damn character having an i3 rank, idk if its just me really disliking this detail.