The S2K Pandemic

[Astro]

Let me start this thread by prefacing that no individuals, groups, or factions are responsible for the constant fighting that the server has been subject to. This thread is not blaming anyone, but only the systems at play.

First, let us outline some objectives that this thread aims to accomplish and, hopefully, address.

1. Why do people "shotcop"? When is it too little, or too much?
   1. For Willard Networks V3, how can we design systems to disincentivize the prolific nature of shotcops on V2?
2. How can the resistance impact the server's narrative meaningfully WITHOUT engaging in S2K?

Currently, as it stands, the resistance has no real way of impacting the main server without performing a massive S2K operation. This has sorta been the case for two or more years.

I think, as @RedHotGinger outlined in the earlier discussion on this topic in the Rebel Discord, it is because of two reasons. One, any roleplay that they do in fact end up doing ends up sinking into the void, where it is not very noticeable. Two, because for better or for worse, S2King your way through a problem is rewarded far more than something done through roleplay.

In retrospect, this is largely true. In the most recent case with the assault on the SeCon meeting, players were "rewarded" with the death of multiple influential characters in the CCA, as well as the bounty of one of them. Then, they held out due to the oncoming swarm of Combine and further was rewarded with scripts from the death of that Combine. Perhaps this is not the best case. What about in the first cycle of Industrial 24? Too many to list and recall from those times. S2K is rewarded far too much. But, this is no fault of anyone. This is the product of the design of V2. For the future in V3, how can we learn from V2 so these same glaring problems are not rearing their ugly heads in?

In V2, to play as a resistance fighter who takes arms up against the Combine, you spawn in and grind. Then you use what you grind to kill cops on main. There, you either die and restart, or you keep grinding to repeat the cycle. The server is script-centric, and it always has been. Obviously, there is no way to completely revamp the core gameplay cycle of V2 without making it V3. The systems of Willard are too intertwined, unless someone is willing to pull out these systems. But I believe that there are some things that can be done to remedy this.

We could reimplement Willard's turn-based combat that V2 was built on. Not only does this make encounters significantly more deadly, but it also makes the skills of a character more important. The other upside is that this also equalizes encounters between people of different connections and weapon classes. However, reimplementing TBC is unrealistic because it requires significant tooling to make it functional again, and it is a band-aid solution.

Another solution is to incentivize pushing those who reached the "end-game" of Willard's gameplay loop off to the expo servers to do whatever they want to do. Not only does this give resistance groups a chance to impact the narrative away from the main server, but it also gives them things to shoot at that are not main server cops or administration. But the crux of this is that these expos CANNOT be S2K-centric. S2K-centric expos have a place, but should never take the forefront of a narrative, large or small. Perhaps this is also a band-aid solution.

One other solution that requires probably less effort than the other two I have listed is to simply reward and amplify the consequences that roleplay provides. Perhaps also lessen the impact of the consequences that S2K brings. Maybe Johnny Rebel sneaks into a meeting and roleplays out shooting the CA rather than whipping out a gun and blasting him immediately on the spot. Or, a group comes together and conducts projects in the slums to help out your average Joe Shmoe - attracting the attention of the local BMD group or Lambda (as an example). This seems like a no-brainer, but evidently, this has not happened.

Maybe you disagree with one or all of my potential solutions I have brought forth. If this is the case for you, then I implore you to reply to this thread to offer criticisms or bring up your own solutions. I want this discussion to remain civil and collegial, as no one is here with ill intent toward one side or another, but with mutual concern for the future of the server and our community.

 

[Eviction Notice]

Also the old OTA models would be cool as well.

hello, OTA Lead here: no.

 

[Marco]

Here's a video example of it (before it gets switched to S2K due to there being too many participants)

Back when we had the paraordanance, the MP5, and the SSU...

 

[Eviction Notice]

Here's a video example of it (before it gets switched to S2K due to there being too many participants)

Crazy how much more time there is to type/communicate/actually roleplay.

 

[Kappatalist]

Let me start this thread by prefacing that no individuals, groups, or factions are responsible for the constant fighting that the server has been subject to. This thread is not blaming anyone, but only the systems at play.

First, let us outline some objectives that this thread aims to accomplish and, hopefully, address.

1. Why do people "shotcop"? When is it too little, or too much?
   1. For Willard Networks V3, how can we design systems to disincentivize the prolific nature of shotcops on V2?
2. How can the resistance impact the server's narrative meaningfully WITHOUT engaging in S2K?

RebelRP was probably closest to what you want early on when groups struggled to piece together a communal scrap gun and bandana, and the only way you were doing that was by running a store or buying from one. The idea of fighting CPs on the main server was insane, you were going to get bodied doing it. That was the entire point behind expeditions, the main server can't have rebels and CPs duking it out constantly because either you end up with rebels steamrolling CPs, and the city just turns to chaos - Or CPs steamroll rebels, because they can't really disengage, and you end up with a quarter of the server being PK'd and potentially leaving.

I'd add what I said in this thread too and also others because it's relevant.

To disincentivise shotcops you either limit the weapons rebels have access to, or make it so that fighting on the main server constantly isn't worthwhile. Rebels are always going to want to get into combat because that's the appeal for a lot of people so you give them the option of being able to go on expeditions so those that want it can do it there. It's not that combat on main shouldn't happen, but if that's where it's expected to you'll run into those issues and I don't think it's something that's even possible to be balanced properly.

It doesn't help that Willard forces Rebels to go toe-to-toe with the Combine on the server in a weird wave defense so tries to balance it in a way where they can do that. Shotcops should be two guys dropping a CP or two and then leaving, but Willard stops them from being able to disengage due to the crime timer and the rules regarding that which is the whole point of guerrilla warfare.

Expeditions are an obvious way to impact the narrative, but on the main server that usually should be infiltration which just isn't a side of RebelRP that we see done often. Not many have done it, less have ever done it well. The biggest complaint I see is that it's not rewarding but that's just untrue - It's not really about stealing a medkit or two from the CMU, playing as a covert rebel is about influencing other people to meet your aims and doing some straight up CIA ops. It's just player creativity.

and then we can finally purge the willard rule bible wtf is that

 

[RedHotGinger]

but on the main server that usually should be infiltration which just isn't a side of RebelRP that we see done often. Not many have done it, less have ever done it well. The biggest complaint I see is that it's not rewarding but that's just untrue

It is pretty much an objective fact - agreed by almost everyone - infiltration is not remotely worth doing. In the current atmosphere of rebel RP, its actually more of a detriment to both yourself, and whoever you are working with. Its risky, with no potential payout. Even if you do get anything out of it, it'll take at least a month of work to accomplish, with tons of potential for getting interrupted both IC or OOC.

Even in rare cases where infiltrators could make use of information or circumstance, staff or even faction leads are usually close-by to remind them they're not allowed to in some way or another. As shown by recent events, nothing is more effective than blatant raiding parties which just kinda rule-lawyer their way into optimal position.

Infiltration is a novel-concept, but its just beaten out by every other form of action. The most effective rebel archetype is currently one who never goes to the city, save for occasional rations, and just grinds trash and crates until they have enough guns to passive and shotcop when needed.

 

[verTix]

infiltration is not remotely worth doing

i've said this numerous times but i think this is simply the result of 2 things

1. there's no relevant information to gather. troop movements, logistical lines, etc. none of that matters because there's no plot being pushed forward and nothing to gain by knowing it

2. when there is important information, it is typically disseminated through OOC means like discord or forums. if people started saying "find out IC" more often, as annoying as it is, it would make a world of difference. but systems have to be completely reworked in order for the server to actually be the place where things happen

 

[dubik15]

you know what will lower S2k

having to manually load bullets [or having to wait a while for a magazine to be loaded.


Either you bring a gazilion magazines or have to wait long times.

It will discourage S2K

 

[Ansty]

you know what will lower S2k

having to manually load bullets [or having to wait a while for a magazine to be loaded.


Either you bring a gazilion magazines or have to wait long times.

It will discourage S2K

The day you add manual bullet loading is the day shotguns become the indisputed meta.

 

[Bounter]

I agree with this as, frankly, something has to change.

However.

The solution to this is not just in the Rebellion, and it's a big mistake to think that.

The problem is that what we have fundamentally is a gigantic disconnect between the people on the server trying to roleplay (Everyone from Grey Slummers to CCA, Citizens to Loyalists, Workers, Researchers, etc.) and the "S2K Players" (Not just 'Rebels' plainly mind you, but anyone on the server who lives and breathes S2K shootouts as opposed to focusing on a singular character or faction. Whilst rebels might be big proponents of this, plenty of Overwatch and Civil Protection forces are also to blame for perpetuating this).

What I mean by this is that a lot of this Rebel S2K stuff is wholly encouraged by the fact that it just works. Why does it work? Simple. The Combine Faction lets them do it. They *have* to. They're the Main Characters of the server now after all.

This is a snippet from a reply I made on another (now locked) thread:


When you have a situation like this, standards will obviously degrade. What's the point in roleplaying when you're fighting faceless robots? Make no mistake: Overwatch is S2K faction. However it's the fact that it is not supported by the Citizen Faction, nor does it have anything at stake, means that Rebels simply have no reason to do anything but reciprocate.

What you have to do instead of give the Citizen faction's representatives (The Player Civil Administration) full, unadulterated, supreme decision-making authority over Overwatch, Conscript, and Civil Protection forces. Whilst this may sound power-grabby or unfair to some, this is *the* only way to fix CvR.

For example; Instead of letting unseen members of the Event Team or Faction Leads plan events solely for their cliques to fight NPCs with little to no impact, you let the *Loyalist Faction* decide for themselves how to proceed. Have Chairmen and CA's (real characters) plan around bureaucracy in order to fight back against the Rebellion. Plan expeditions. Plan strategically. Turn the MAIN CONFLICT of the server from mere close-quarters firefights between nameless rebels and civil protection to something akin to a grand game of chess (I see something like this working perfectly in tandem to @Goulashnikov 's above proposal as, player-led Combine interference on the World Map will always beckon a response if the conditions are made right).

Again, that's just an example. What we really want here to 'Up the Stakes'. Prop up the Overwatch Factions with actual *Characters* behind them in order to properly change the dynamic to something more player-atuned and therefore, creates more roleplay.


Sorry if this seems unordered and hard to read, I'm quite tired

From my little experience as OTA in a short story where our faculties got brought back... I like the idea of OTA having normal characters.

Not getting their faculties back, but just being able to do things and RP outside of being a Sweep and JW cannon fodder.

Let them participate more often, let them do things...

 

[Curbalas]

From my little experience as OTA in a short story where our faculties got brought back... I like the idea of OTA having normal characters.

Not getting their faculties back, but just being able to do things and RP outside of being a Sweep and JW cannon fodder.

Let them participate more often, let them do things...

OTA is not a roleplay faction. They are event characters, if someone wants to RP as a Combine character they should play a cop, not OTA. OTA are supposed to be robots.

 

[Bounter]

OTA is not a roleplay faction. They are event characters, if someone wants to RP as a Combine character they should play a cop, not OTA. OTA are supposed to be robots.

But many people would want to RP as OTA and not COPS.

We all loved both soldiers and cops when playing HL2. Even mods where you play as Combine it is usually one of the two or BOTH for a reason.

OTA being relegated into a event faction is what makes people not show up on guard duties or events... It is boring to show up once a year. If they could patrol sewers or outlands more often, or just be allowed to do things like training ala kill-rooms etc.

The fact only REAL way to RP as Combine is Cops... Kinda blows.

 

[Curbalas]

But many people would want to RP as OTA and not COPS.

Well they shouldn't. It is not a roleplay faction.

OTA being relegated into a event faction is what makes people not show up on guard duties or events... It is boring to show up once a year. If they could patrol sewers or outlands more often, or just be allowed to do things like training ala kill-rooms etc.

They applied for it. Knowing the faction is an event faction. They weren't forced to apply.

We all loved both soldiers and cops when playing HL2. Even mods where you play as Combine it is usually one of the two or BOTH for a reason.

OTA have always been robots.

 

[Goulashnikov]

or just be allowed to do things like training ala kill-rooms etc.

If they're not doing IC training then real shit they should be. Not just for the obvious S2K practice reason but because thats what they'd be doing anyways when not either in stasis or on mission.

 

[Ansty]

things like training ala kill-rooms etc.

Are you telling me OTA do not do training like ever on Willard networks?

 

[Elsida]

Are you telling me OTA do not do training like ever on Willard networks?

nope, they don't.

 

[Kappatalist]

But many people would want to RP as OTA and not COPS.

 

[Lord Beckett]

not sure what makes you all think OTA can't roleplay... just because they're not cracking jokes doesn't mean they can't write a /me that contributes to world building or the general atmosphere. emotionless doesn't mean they can't roleplay

 

[Bounter]

not sure what makes you all think OTA can't roleplay... just because they're not cracking jokes doesn't mean they can't write a /me that contributes to world building or the general atmosphere. emotionless doesn't mean they can't roleplay

TRVTH

 

[Bounter]

Well they shouldn't. It is not a roleplay faction.


They applied for it. Knowing the faction is an event faction. They weren't forced to apply.


OTA have always been robots.

OTA being an event faction is a mistake then, if them not showing up or not getting on is of any indication of anything.

One of the most iconic aspects of HL2 being turned into a once upon a blood moon kind of deal... Sucks.

And like Beckett said, just because they lack EMOTIONS (Not fully even), does not mean they cannot provide Roleplay in anyway.

 

[Kappatalist]

not sure what makes you all think OTA can't roleplay... just because they're not cracking jokes doesn't mean they can't write a /me that contributes to world building or the general atmosphere. emotionless doesn't mean they can't roleplay

because other than doing rebel killing and larping as a lampost they contribute nothing to the server unlike CPs who actually interact with people and are characters, you can't have a faction on a roleplay server that doesn't RP with anyone, the few interactions they can have with the majority of the server are very limited.

Hence, event faction.

And it's not that they're bad RPers, and can't RP, they just can't do so in a meaningful way to be a full faction