Enforce PK rules

[Rabid]

<:: 10-7 ::>

Or do the sweep and just ignore obvious rebel areas and report clear after sitting in slums apartments / CZ area out of sight of scanner. If a scanner doesn't see it it didn't happen.

Lots of ways around not sweeping but still "sweeping" in name.

We both know the mentality this can breed though - you've told me many times of what happens when a Resistance scene realises how whipped the Cops are under threat of death and what it emboldens them to do because they know the OOC limits. You start letting shotcoppers get away every time because your faction is afraid of running into an ambush and you'll quickly run into problems.

Nothing I've seen from WN suggests its the server to break that mould.

My feelings mostly come from situations where there are OTA/CP sweeps and they kill everyone in their path who had no affiliation or anything to do with it and they are pked, but if they had killed CPs in those sorts of altercations the CPs wouldn't have the same punishment.

Then why not advocate for change at the root?

NPC PK's are abysmally silly (didn't like 3 people get PK'd to a respawned barnacle after a server crash and it was called legit?) and there's no reason Cops or OTA need to slaughter everyone they find down there. Hunt for the aggressors, or failing that you can grab people.

Rebels and Cops both make the choice to do their respective RP, sure - but that's where the similarities end. Rebels have no expectations nor directives. They can't get forced into a PKable situation because Cops baited them to run into the city and attack. You can't convince me that simply slapping PK's on Cops and going "oh well" under these circumstances is fair.

 

[Sagsworth]

I can’t speak for all, but it genuinely does seem spiteful. From the dislike bombings on forums to the gloating in OOC, it seems to me like some of them think they have the moral high ground, even on an OOC level. I’ve heard from numerous people information that can corroborate this.

I can speak for me and my entire group (barring one person who has been mad at OTA a lot) that we have don't have any dislike to any individual CP/OTA characters or players, we used to when Spine was around and I didn't hide the fact that I thought his leadership and character was bad, but he's gone now. I have seen far more "cope" "haha lol get fucked" etc. in OOC when rebel sweeps have gone bad than when cops have gone down, in fact - there is no instance so far in which any cops have been PK'ed at all, so there hasn't been much of an opportunity for this gloating from the rebel side.

You are actively making the choice to go into the sewers and risk death. I don’t think that NPC deaths should be a PK, but sweeps as a result of shotcopping or blowing shit up certainly should if you were part of the insurgent party.

I agree, people who decide to be a rebel are signing up for a PK by signing up to doing illegal activities, especially when they're breaking the law in the moment. People who sign up to be a cop should do so understanding the benefits their character receives, as well as the immense risk it puts their character under - including that of a PK.

Since the introduction of PKs for cops, they have stopped doing retarded shit like running into the slums with only two cops online to try and kill a single vort, and are way more interested in self-preservation during sweeps rather than forgoing fear RP and running headfirst into rebels, content that there will be no consequence to their actions. The same is true for rebels, who are far more careful about going underground than ever before as they are aware that every death underground is a PK no matter what. Each side in a fight is more likely to attempt to retreat than to keep fighting, each side is aware of the risks and is comfortable in avoiding them.

Rebels and Cops both make the choice to do their respective RP, sure - but that's where the similarities end. Rebels have no expectations nor directives. They can't get forced into a PKable situation because Cops baited them to run into the city and attack. You can't convince me that simply slapping PK's on Cops and going "oh well" under these circumstances is fair.

I don't understand why it matters that a cop doesn't choose to get into any specific situation, they signed up for this when they joined the faction. You become a cop knowing that you put your character in danger by doing so, and that you don't get a choice in this - you have sacrificed your autonomy for some benefits. Deal with the consequences.

People have whined for YEARS that rebels don't know how to roleplay properly, that the reason they die isn't because of anything wrong with the server but because they're just not playing the correct way. For a very long time, OOC protection has allowed Civil Protection to ignore any requirements to play their characters intelligently and fearRP during conflict, now they can learn to play smart just like rebels on willard are expected to. This server doesn't coddle anyone, everyone is at a PK risk whether they chose to be in a situation or not - and it makes people play smarter or die.

 

[Rabid]

I don't understand why it matters that a cop doesn't choose to get into any specific situation, they signed up for this when they joined the faction. You become a cop knowing that you put your character in danger by doing so, and that you don't get a choice in this - you have sacrificed your autonomy for some benefits. Deal with the consequences.

Because they're literally being forced into a PKable situation where the threat of not doing it (other than just flagging off every single time) is a PK anyway. Its a literal necessity for server balance that they respond to the shit rebels do. Even if it isn't too much of an issue now it is rapidly going to become one as WN continues and the Resistance gets bigger and even better armed.

You can't argue that Cops make a choice like Rebels do when Rebels literally don't have anything comparable to being forced to run into the sewers to hunt rebels.

I can guarantee you that when the hammer starts dropping on Cop PK's (and I'm surprised it hasn't yet honestly) that it isn't going to breed actual characters, because what's the point if you can get wiped for doing your faction role? It'll breed (exactly as has happened many times before) people half-arsing characters, remaking their old ones or just becoming 'robocops'. I wouldn't blame them either with how things currently are.

Rebels can pick every battle they have to fight short of being in the underground and hitting a sweep. The most common complaint is "well rebels can lose months of work in an instant" - key word being months, because how you pick the battle is entirely up to you. If you're unlucky enough as a cop you can become a TAG unit then get PK'd because John Rebel shotcopped and you got walked into an ambush day one.

Totally fair, right? Sure, it could happen to Rebels but it won't, unless you plugwalk around the Sewers 24/7.

It'd be different if cops make a stupid choice off their own back. Not when the server is designed around "hey, rebels did bad thing so we've gotta throw you into the grinder to make sure stuff stays stable. Sorry lol!".

This server doesn't coddle anyone, everyone is at a PK risk whether they chose to be in a situation or not - and it makes people play smarter or die.

Yeah true, this is the same community where the server crashed and the two rebels who walked back to their RP spot got eaten by a respawned barnacle and subsequently PK'd for it - and that was entirely valid apparently!

There is so much more that should have been done to make the Underground fairer for Rebels before the response that was decided upon was "Make Cops PKable too!".

 

[Black Flag]

In my opinion. It’s not about one faction not having PKs, it’s about one having PKs that matter. Combine factions are the representation of an unlimited supply chain of troops and equipment. Rebels and vortiguants are few in number. The whole story is David vs Goliath.

Back to my first point, combine deaths mean nothing(even though they might be one of the best on the server giving the greatest RP), they are replaceable. A rebel isn’t. Like Lazlo, the greatest mind off his generation killed by Antlions on some god forsaken beach.

I think that CPs should be PK’d and restart as at least I5’s no matter the rank i5-RL. God knows CPs complain of nepotism in the faction, this would be an easy fix. Think of it as prestiging in cod.

 

[Rabid]

I think that CPs should be PK’d and restart as at least I5’s no matter the rank i5-RL. God knows CPs complain of nepotism in the faction, this would be an easy fix. Think of it as prestiging in cod.

This is a one-way ticket to breeding a faction that doesn't bother with character development because they could get wiped the second Johnny Rebel forces them to run into the sewers and its easier to just not get attached while fulfilling the role.

 

[Black Flag]

This is a one-way ticket to breeding a faction that doesn't bother with character development because they could get wiped the second Johnny Rebel forces them to run into the sewers and its easier to just not get attached while fulfilling the role.

Easy solution. De-whitelist those who are not up to the standard. I don't know why the leads would put up with it.

 

[Sagsworth]

Because they're literally being forced into a PKable situation where the threat of not doing it (other than just flagging off every single time) is a PK anyway.

There is nothing forced about this situation, you signed up for it when you became a cop - everything afterwards is managing consequences. I don't care if you were forced into a sweep after signing away your autonomy, this is the trade you made as a character. If cops keep getting fucked, then they should sweep in strength or not sweep at all to maximize their chances of success. The idea is with this system, cop sweeps don't wipe because no one overextends so much that they cannot withdraw, and rebels don't wipe because even if cops are in the lead, they won't foolishly press their advantage and get killed.

 

[Rabid]

Easy solution. De-whitelist those who are not up to the standard. I don't know why the leads would put up with it.

You sort of missed my point there. You are asking people to pour hours and hours of roleplay into a character that could get arbitrarily forced to walk into a zone where if they die, they are PK'd.

They are not choosing to go in there, mind you, they are doing so because (for the sake of server balance) they have to. Such a thing wouldn't fly in reverse, and doesn't. There is nothing like it for rebels and probably never will be.

I don't agree with shit like NPC PK's either, but it is what it is.

There is nothing forced about this situation, you signed up for it when you became a cop - everything afterwards is managing consequences. I don't care if you were forced into a sweep after signing away your autonomy, this is the trade you made as a character.

And yet, again, there is no direct comparison to Rebels. Rebels get to pick and choose their avenue of attack (if at all), how they approach a situation and how much they put themselves at risk unless they decide to camp in the sewers. That's why people measure their characters in months rather than weeks. Not to mention the various (justified!) concessions to try and give Rebels as much of a chance as possible.

There is a vast difference between cops making the choice to go in and investigate something and getting killed or mugged or whatever and having to do something that literally keeps the server ticking over. One I 100% agree with and is justified, the other is something I have seen time after time burn the faction out.

To that end too I don't agree with Cops slaughtering everything in the sewers either on WN. I think the system is archaic as hell for several reasons and both sides suffer because of it. Cops are forced into it to possibly eat PK's and Rebels are literally constantly living in a PKable state for existing.

I'm sure you'll agree - you used to play LP so I know you know - what happens when you embolden certain types of (rebel) players through them knowing the limits and loopholes OOC. Cops plug those gaps - someone wants to get their jollies off and shotcops for no reason, they should expect a knock and they shouldn't be able to scare it away. This system encourages the Resistance to shelter everyone to get the best chance at surviving the massacre and thus emboldening these people to do it again and again.

Cop PK's feel necessary because Rebels are playing on an obscene level of hard mode right now.

 

[Black Flag]

You sort of missed my point there. You are asking people to pour hours and hours of roleplay into a character that could get arbitrarily forced to walk into a zone where if they die, they are PK'd.

People put hours into their wageslave jobs and walk into their parking lot to be hit and killed by a distracted driver. That's life.

 

[Black Flag]

Playing a CP character means you know what you signed up for. Do your job or Dispatch threatens you will killing your family or you.

 

[Kamilisha Haijulikani]

Wow, what a fantastic fucking thread. Give yourselves an applaud on the back.

 

[verTix]

Wow, what a fantastic fucking thread. Give yourselves an applaud on the back.

Fuck you

 

[Mercury]

There is no equivalent situation for rebels at all. A rebel is fully capable of never engaging with cops and therefore never risking a PK, even if they are armed or engaging in that side of roleplay.

This is simply not true. Practically all things rebel carry a risk of death. Literally every time I do something, I am thinking "Is the fact that I'm more likely to die from this worth it". If you go in the sewers, you might die from NPCs or an OTA sweep someone provoked. If I trade to get better gear, I might die from a snitch. If I carry gear, I might die due to a sweep of no fault of my own. If I do any rebel activities, I might die. In short, being a rebel does necessarily mean that you are constantly taking the risk of PK. The only difference I that dispatch tells you how to be a CP, but the fact that you have to generally resist and rebel or at least get something beyond credits and a flashlight to be a resistance/rebel member dictates that you might get a PK.

You guys make the argument that OTA don’t show up in HL2 until the uprising. That may be true, but in HL2 there are also literally hundreds of cops that come after you in waves of 10 or more. Do you want that instead?

That is preferable for me, yes.

It’s not an even playing field. There are countless protections in place to keep rebels from being wiped, such as meta base rules, 30 minute sweep reaction times, 15 minute NLR, etc. If this was authentic to HL2, the sewers would be flooded with man hacks and cops until every single one of the rebels was killed and their equipment destroyed.

This system in my eyes reflects the fact that in a realistic universe and setting there would be a huge amount of slums and a huge amount of sewers, subways, and just unknown areas. However, it is impossible for the map to contain all of those areas and prevent meta without these rules.

Rebels can pick every battle they have to fight short of being in the underground and hitting a sweep. The most common complaint is "well rebels can lose months of work in an instant" - key word being months, because how you pick the battle is entirely up to you. If you're unlucky enough as a cop you can become a TAG unit then get PK'd because John Rebel shotcopped and you got walked into an ambush day one.

And yet, again, there is no direct comparison to Rebels. Rebels get to pick and choose their avenue of attack (if at all), how they approach a situation and how much they put themselves at risk unless they decide to camp in the sewers. That's why people measure their characters in months rather than weeks. Not to mention the various (justified!) concessions to try and give Rebels as much of a chance as possible.

Again, just about every rebel action requires risk of death and we don't choose when CPs sweep sewers and slums become some other person decided to do something dumb. We don't choose when someone snitches on us.

For instance, someone died just because they talked on a frequency at the wrong time. We don't choose when someone on the same frequency gets caught.

 

[Mercury]

This system in my eyes reflects the fact that in a realistic universe and setting there would be a huge amount of slums and a huge amount of sewers, subways, and just unknown areas. However, it is impossible for the map to contain all of those areas and prevent meta without these rules.

To further elaborate on this, there is a finite number of CPs and OTA in one spot. It would take time to get CPs to run all the way from other parts of the city that are all doing their own thing to a singular unified spot. Same thing for OTA. This is even reflected when it is literally said that the Combine are slow to wake.

And it is quite evident that there should be hidden areas and hidden bases. In HL2, you can see that there are many underground areas that seem to have been in service before Freeman lead the combine to them. For just two instances, Kleiner's lab and the underground railroad (of course before Freeman lead the Combine to it).

 

[Black Flag]

To further elaborate on this, there is a finite number of CPs and OTA in one spot. It would take time to get CPs to run all the way from other parts of the city that are all doing their own thing to a singular unified spot. Same thing for OTA. This is even reflected when it is literally said that the Combine are slow to wake.

And it is quite evident that there should be hidden areas and hidden bases. In HL2, you can see that there are many underground areas that seem to have been in service before Freeman lead the combine to them. For just two instances, Kleiner's lab and the underground railroad (of course before Freeman lead the Combine to it).

They are slow to wake for major attacks because they didn't exist. The Lambda movement was a covert underground railroad focusing on helping citizens escape and developing research to eventually be able to fight. If lambda did bombings, attacks on CP's and OTA they would have been attacked long ago. But they didn't cause to much of a problem.

 

[araskes]

They are slow to wake for major attacks because they didn't exist. The Lambda movement was a covert underground railroad focusing on helping citizens escape and developing research to eventually be able to fight. If lambda did bombings, attacks on CP's and OTA they would have been attacked long ago. But they didn't cause to much of a problem.

let's not forget the time they freed multiple vortigaunts in a day and took down a floating vault.

 

[verTix]

let's not forget the time they freed multiple vortigaunts in a day and took down a floating vault.

let’s also not forget that that wouldn’t have happened without the direct involvement of a character with plot armor effectively equivalent to freeman himself

 

[Rabid]

Playing a CP character means you know what you signed up for. Do your job or Dispatch threatens you will killing your family or you.

Yes but one part of that job is literally for the sake of server balance.

This is simply not true. Practically all things rebel carry a risk of death. Literally every time I do something, I am thinking "Is the fact that I'm more likely to die from this worth it". If you go in the sewers, you might die from NPCs or an OTA sweep someone provoked. If I trade to get better gear, I might die from a snitch. If I carry gear, I might die due to a sweep of no fault of my own. If I do any rebel activities, I might die. In short, being a rebel does necessarily mean that you are constantly taking the risk of PK. The only difference I that dispatch tells you how to be a CP, but the fact that you have to generally resist and rebel or at least get something beyond credits and a flashlight to be a resistance/rebel member dictates that you might get a PK.

Yes but in most of those cases that is you choosing to engage in those things (the sewers being so lethal is silly, I do want to say I agree there. Being PK'd by hyper-lethal NPC's is worse than dying in a sweep lol).

If you trade to get better gear, that is a choice to do so - and a choice whether or not you do so openly.

If you carry gear you are choosing to carry it on you, etc.

For the record I am not saying cops should never get PK'd. But being PK'd after being forced in a PKable situation is really dumb.

 

[Black Flag]

let's not forget the time they freed multiple vortigaunts in a day and took down a floating vault.

Let's not forget the beginning when Overwatch sent a team to take Eli for maybe possibly seeing something he shouldn't have. We can argue all day, you are just nit-picking at this point.

 

[araskes]

let’s also not forget that that wouldn’t have happened without the direct involvement of a character with plot armor effectively equivalent to freeman himself

WRONG! ur mom! get off my thread kiddo.