Enforce PK rules

[Sagsworth]

If cops run in all retard mode and all die in a sweep, then that's their fault. No conflict on Willard so far has resulted in a wipe for either side, the option to retreat has always been present and taken. Dispatch will force you to sweep, but your RL is in charge and can order a retreat, and have done in previous sweeps. PK risks make cops more careful about when they sweep, and more careful about how they sweep and this is good. For reference, not a single cop has been PK'ed to this date relating to a sweep or going underground. You choose to become a cop, whitelists comes with advantages and disadvantages for your character - same as almost every other faction. As people have been screaming at rebels for years, play smart and you survive.

 

[Stinky Rags]

Deranks to RCT is a stupid idea, since if CPs get absolutely dumpster'd in a sweep, you will have like 10 recruits and the faction will be fucked because of that.
PK & a possible derank to a lower rank (e.g, i3 to i4).

Yes, RCT was an extreme example of my point. I think losing a rank per PK makes sense since your CP literally died but you're also not removed to the basic level again.

You choose to free your vort. You choose to stay in the sewers as a rebel. You are literally threatened with a PK if you do not walk your ass into a possible ambush as a cop. If this sort of thing existed for rebels people would absolutely flip.

You choose to join the CP faction. You choose to chase the anti-citizen into the CZ zone against better judgement. Having no punishments for dying for any faction is very silly; there should be threat from all opposing factions. CPs threaten Rebels, Rebels threaten CPs. Etc.

 

[Rabid]

You choose to join the CP faction. You choose to chase the anti-citizen into the CZ zone against better judgement. Having no punishments for dying for any faction is very silly; there should be threat from all opposing factions. CPs threaten Rebels, Rebels threaten CPs. Etc.

One of those factions is also directly responsible for countering the other though. It is a necessity that they be willing and able to respond for the sake of balance, and they are literally threatened with PK's for not sweeping when ordered to for said balance.

I mean it with sincerity when I say if you start to operate on the idea that "well maybe cops will be more inclined to bail or not sweep" you are setting yourself up for an absolute disaster. You will breed an environment where the Resistance knows that the threat of every report or sweep ending in death will push cops to barely so much as tickle their nutsack and from there things sway far out of whack.

There is no equivalent situation for rebels at all. A rebel is fully capable of never engaging with cops and therefore never risking a PK, even if they are armed or engaging in that side of roleplay.

 

[HOKI]

One of those factions is also directly responsible for countering the other though. It is a necessity that they be willing and able to respond for the sake of balance, and they are literally threatened with PK's for not sweeping when ordered to for said balance.

I mean it with sincerity when I say if you start to operate on the idea that "well maybe cops will be more inclined to bail or not sweep" you are setting yourself up for an absolute disaster. You will breed an environment where the Resistance knows that the threat of every report or sweep ending in death will push cops to barely so much as tickle their nutsack and from there things sway far out of whack.

There is no equivalent situation for rebels at all. A rebel is fully capable of never engaging with cops and therefore never risking a PK, even if they are armed or engaging in that side of roleplay.

As someone who plays CP practically 24/7, I think you are coping.
PKs for CPs greatly increase the intensity of every altercation and sweep, adding to the fun. If CPs refuse to complete their duties (ICly or OOCly), they should be appropriately punished.
ICly it's death of their families and themselves, OOCly a strike or removal from the faction. I don't like how you push for PK immunity for CPs. In my opinion it should be fair for everyone. Your sole point is that CPs won't respond to crimes because they're under the constant threat of death, and I think that's good.
You chose to be a CP officer, you should reap what you sow. Same goes for everyone; citizen/rebel & vortigaunt. It's just a game, and everyone should be under the same rules.

 

[Rabid]

As someone who plays CP practically 24/7, I think you are coping.
PKs for CPs greatly increase the intensity of every altercation and sweep, adding to the fun. If CPs refuse to complete their duties (ICly or OOCly), they should be appropriately punished.
ICly it's death of their families and themselves, OOCly a strike or removal from the faction. I don't like how you push for PK immunity for CPs. In my opinion it should be fair for everyone. Your sole point is that CPs won't respond to crimes because they're under the constant threat of death, and I think that's good.
You chose to be a CP officer, you should reap what you sow. Same goes for everyone; citizen/rebel & vortigaunt. It's just a game, and everyone should be under the same rules.

And I've played just about every faction - including CP - across damn near every large serious community for the past eight years. I've ran several too.

I'm not saying that because I want a pissing contest, I'm saying that because I'm approaching this from the direction of thinking about the server as a whole and what sort of problems that skewed idea of "fairness" brings up time after time. WN isn't some magic exception to what almost every other community has gone through before it and from everything I've seen while playing and being on the forums there's certainly not a different attitude about how to approach it from the perspective of a regular player.

You cannot maintain a server dynamic where your main peacekeeping force - even on an OOC level - can be cowed into inaction even when a necessary response is needed under threat of a PK or removal. I'm sorry that just is not how it works and it is a nonsensical angle to take.

There is no 'fun' in knowing you can be baited into a sweep and PK'd and if you refuse to partake you die anyway. That's not a choice, like rebels get. If that was how rebels worked there would be a shitstorm.

So either make it so rebels are forced to attack under the same circumstances as cops, or don't suggest cop PK's make things equal. They don't.

 

[Sagsworth]

don't suggest PK's make things equal. They don't.

I don't care whether it's equal or not, it's about whether it makes a better server. And so far, it has done - the time of PK immune cops is HL2RP history, we've moved on.

 

[Stinky Rags]

Bear in mind that if a cop is baited into the slums and killed under the current NLR rules of this server that does not constitute a PK as the motive is to steal and not to murder that specific character (even if death is the result). PK rules applying for CPs though should start to apply during sweeps and other such things, as the CPs are actively trying to murder another character-- that's my take on it.

 

[Rabid]

Bear in mind that if a cop is baited into the slums and killed under the current NLR rules of this server that does not constitute a PK as the motive is to steal and not to murder that specific character (even if death is the result). PK rules applying for CPs though should start to apply during sweeps and other such things, as the CPs are actively trying to murder another character-- that's my take on it.

I'm not talking about a solo cop being baited for the record (if a lone cop goes there and dies they SHOULD get PK'd though lol).

I'm talking about baiting an entire sweep to ambush and kill them by doing something that knowingly constitutes a sweep. I know this has been done at least a few times from seeing the footage and talking to both people who play cops and rebels.

Cops are often forced to sweep. I think that has to be repeated. They cannot opt out. They cannot say "no thanks" (and if they could it'd be terrible for balance anyway). The only way to avoid this is to play a basically unarmed cop forever. Rebels don't have this issue. You can get a gun and store it - there you go, you now have the full choice to use it or not to use it.

I don't know why people keep dismissing this very key difference but then going "ah yes its totally fine that cops, a necessity to balance the server against rebels, are forced to risk their characters on sweeps they cannot opt out of without risk of a PK or removal. This totally makes the server better and will not cause any issues".

There is a difference between cops going "Man, we got a report of a rebel lets go see!" by themselves and "OH SHIT REBELS JUST SHOT TWO COPS/BOMBED A PLACE WE GOTTA RESPOND". The former very well should merit a PK. The latter should not.

 

[Stinky Rags]

I'm not talking about a solo cop being baited for the record (if a lone cop goes there and dies they SHOULD get PK'd though lol).

I'm talking about baiting an entire sweep to ambush and kill them by doing something that knowingly constitutes a sweep. I know this has been done at least a few times from seeing the footage and talking to both people who play cops and rebels.

Cops are often forced to sweep. I think that has to be repeated. They cannot opt out. They cannot say "no thanks" (and if they could it'd be terrible for balance anyway). The only way to avoid this is to play a basically unarmed cop forever. Rebels don't have this issue. You can get a gun and store it - there you go, you now have the full choice to use it or not to use it.

I don't know why people keep dismissing this very key difference but then going "ah yes its totally fine that cops, a necessity to balance the server against rebels, are forced to risk their characters on sweeps they cannot opt out of without risk of a PK or removal. This totally makes the server better and will not cause any issues".

There is a difference between cops going "Man, we got a report of a rebel lets go see!" by themselves and "OH SHIT REBELS JUST SHOT TWO COPS/BOMBED A PLACE WE GOTTA RESPOND". The former very well should merit a PK. The latter should not.

So you'd rather rebels never used their guns and never fought the Combine out of fear of PKs? If Rebels know that CPs are also able to die during firefights you'll see much more of a resistance than what you have now. A 6v6 combine v rebel shootout, even if Rebels win, it achieves nothing as the CPs can go back over for round two after 15 minutes.

If you RP a Free Vort or a Rebel you have to combat the Combine to survive, you're in scenarios where a headcrab can one hit you and you're pked if you're in the wrong place. You could have a server with zero resistance, but that's plain boring.

 

[Rabid]

So you'd rather rebels never used their guns and never fought the Combine out of fear of PKs? If Rebels know that CPs are also able to die during firefights you'll see much more of a resistance than what you have now.

You are literally saying "If rebels know they could potentially PK someone's character (even by something like baiting) they'd be more inclined to resist" and that's such a horrible mentality to have, dude.

A 6v6 combine v rebel shootout, even if Rebels win, it achieves nothing as the CPs can go back over for round two after 15 minutes.

You make it sound like it comes from a place of spite, that "If I'm gonna die I sure hope I can PK some of them too so I feel validated!".

Also you get gear if you win, so you don't get "nothing". In fact even in-verse you wouldn't stick around for a round two anyway so this feels somewhat redundant.

If you RP a Free Vort or a Rebel you have to combat the Combine to survive, you're in scenarios where a headcrab can one hit you and you're pked if you're in the wrong place. You could have a server with zero resistance, but that's plain boring.

Why is the solution to this to PK cops even when they're forced to sweep and not (for example):

1. Re-evaluate the risk of the sewers so rebels can't get PK'd by literal NPC's who can demolish you in TBC.
2. Make it so if rebels beat a sweep they don't get a second round unless absolutely necessary.

Either of those would fix a lot of the issues that shouldn't even fall on the cop faction to have to take the brunt for even when they're outright being told "even if you get baited into a PK its valid".

I say again; rebels do not have a comparison to this. No other faction on the server does.

 

[Gyrann]

You are literally saying "If rebels know they could potentially PK someone's character (even by something like baiting) they'd be more inclined to resist" and that's such a horrible mentality to have, dude.

No, it's the human mentality and it makes sense.

 

[Rabid]

No, it's the human mentality and it makes sense.

Doesn't mean it should be played into though does it? That's such a shit reason to end a character for a choice they literally don't even get to make.

I can't go on my cop and go "no thanks I'm happy doing this passiverp" if there's a need to sweep.

 

[swagile]

Doesn't mean it should be played into though does it? That's such a shit reason to end a character for a choice they literally don't even get to make.

I can't go on my cop and go "no thanks I'm happy doing this passiverp" if there's a need to sweep.

<:: 10-7 ::>

Or do the sweep and just ignore obvious rebel areas and report clear after sitting in slums apartments / CZ area out of sight of scanner. If a scanner doesn't see it it didn't happen.

Lots of ways around not sweeping but still "sweeping" in name.

 

[Stinky Rags]

You are literally saying "If rebels know they could potentially PK someone's character (even by something like baiting) they'd be more inclined to resist" and that's such a horrible mentality to have, dude.

I am saying that, I'm also saying that if CPs know they can potentially PK someone's character with no threat to their own character, they're more inclined to do that too. You might hold yourself to a high standard of Roleplay and accept PKs as they come, but not everyone is- not everyone abides by the same standards that others do, and rules should be in place to make sure things are equal.

Willard isn't a 'Combine must always win' server, things are fluid, and circumstances of the server and the RP influence that. If CPs can not be pked under any circumstances (Since I obviously think pks by npcs are dumb, which leaves very few possibilities unlike rebels and vortigaunts at the moment), you'll either have entire squads filled with i1s. Or you'll have people unable to go up and down the rank structure. Having PKs where they're logically applicable to literally everyone else ensures that things progress

You can call it a horrible mentality to have but it's true. Knowing you're rping on an even playing field makes it fair for everyone. If your character is getting murdered by someone, but you win out the fight and kill that character that tried to PK you, and an admin tells you it's NLR for them because their char is important, it's very annoying. Your character development and months and months of OOC grinding could have ended, and the other guy swans off with nothing bad happening to them. Bare in mind during sweeps the CPs are aggressors, I don't care if it's dispatch ordering it, you belong to that faction. If I storm a rebel base with my buddies on my cp I fully accept I might die in that circumstance, and not just come back a few hours later while everyone else loses their characters.

 

[verTix]

Knowing you're rping on an even playing field makes it fair for everyone.

It’s not an even playing field. There are countless protections in place to keep rebels from being wiped, such as meta base rules, 30 minute sweep reaction times, 15 minute NLR, etc. If this was authentic to HL2, the sewers would be flooded with man hacks and cops until every single one of the rebels was killed and their equipment destroyed.

You guys make the argument that OTA don’t show up in HL2 until the uprising. That may be true, but in HL2 there are also literally hundreds of cops that come after you in waves of 10 or more. Do you want that instead?

Bare in mind during sweeps the CPs are aggressors

The mental gymnastics you have to perform in order to come to this conclusion is astounding. If there is a sweep in retaliation to a shotcop or a bombing, that is most certainly not an act of unprovoked aggression. If it’s an unprovoked sweep, sure. But cops exist to uphold the atmosphere and keep the server from ending prematurely.

 

[verTix]

You make it sound like it comes from a place of spite, that "If I'm gonna die I sure hope I can PK some of them too so I feel validated!".

I can’t speak for all, but it genuinely does seem spiteful. From the dislike bombings on forums to the gloating in OOC, it seems to me like some of them think they have the moral high ground, even on an OOC level. I’ve heard from numerous people information that can corroborate this.

It’s a writing game. Nobody is better than the others. I know there are a lot of rebel players that don’t do this, but a hell of a lot more than 1 do.

 

[Stinky Rags]

I can’t speak for all, but it genuinely does seem spiteful. From the dislike bombings on forums to the gloating in OOC, it seems to me like some of them think they have the moral high ground, even on an OOC level. I’ve heard from numerous people information that can corroborate this.

When one faction is immune to PKs while everyone else isn't, of course people are upset. From my end It's certainly not spite, it doesn't affect me much regardless as I roleplay a Civil Protection officer and I can enjoy that luxury. Having 9 people dislike your post isn't spite to me, it's many people clearly not agreeing with you, if that's 'spite' then I don't know what to say. It's indeed a writing game, but being forced to stop writing a character you enjoy when other people can write freely can annoy players on the server, big shocker.

 

[Stinky Rags]

Although as a quick FYI. Instigators of conflict regardless of faction should accept the PK risk. Of course if you blow up the RDT and then CPs sweep and kill you in CZ, the rebels ought to be pked. I think that goes without saying.

 

[verTix]

When one faction is immune to PKs while everyone else isn't, of course people are upset.

You are actively making the choice to go into the sewers and risk death. I don’t think that NPC deaths should be a PK, but sweeps as a result of shotcopping or blowing shit up certainly should if you were part of the insurgent party.

 

[Stinky Rags]

You are actively making the choice to go into the sewers and risk death. I don’t think that NPC deaths should be a PK, but sweeps as a result of shotcopping or blowing shit up certainly should if you were part of the insurgent party.

I fully agree that if you are the reason the CPs are sweeping and you die (or you assist them when they go down and sweep, or by other means involve yourself) then you are allowing yourself to be pked since you're involving yourself in that conflict. My feelings mostly come from situations where there are OTA/CP sweeps and they kill everyone in their path who had no affiliation or anything to do with it and they are pked, but if they had killed CPs in those sorts of altercations the CPs wouldn't have the same punishment.

And yes no NPC PK deaths.