Overhaul the Sewer PK rules entirely.

[Rabid]

So I've poked into Willard a few times, I've played and given things a fair shake. The one thing that repeatedly stands out to me is how absolutely overbearingly harsh the sewer PK rules are; something multiple people brought up long before launch. I've spoken to a good number of far more active rebel and cop players to make sure I wasn't walking into anything blind or missing the obvious.

There is a point where 'dangerous' becomes 'lethal and unfun' and the sewers are absolutely the latter.

For Cops, they're literally forced down there as part of the faction duties in responding to rebels and keeping things ticking - if they don't they're either threatened with a PK or OOC punishment (depending on how they do it). That's far different from deciding to go down there themselves. Victor-6 was PK'd just today for going down there as part of a ROLEPLAY scenario with a workshift and being wiped out by a Vort.

That was their first time in the sewer - something I was told just yesterday "couldn't happen".

Also see @Sagsworth's latest suggestion to where they can also be pushed to go down there because Scanners are going down and doing stuff to trigger sweeps. Its all incredibly silly.

Its even worse for rebels and vorts who can be killed by NPC's (I remember seeing two denied appeals that resulted from a server crash respawning a barnacle that killed them when they were running back to where they'd been. I don't even need to say it do I? lmao) and exist in a constantly PKable state even if they didn't cause the sweep or were doing nothing but trying to roleplay.

Vorts can get PK'd for existing down there even when they can't go anywhere else safely.

Tl;dr: The sewers are hyper-lethal to the point of parody and it is incredibly gruelling and unfair for both cops (who are forced to respond and go down there and die) and rebels/vorts (who can die even if they have no involvement or die to literal NPC's).

 

[Sagsworth]

For Cops, they're literally forced down there as part of the faction duties in responding to rebels and keeping things ticking - if they don't they're either threatened with a PK or OOC punishment (depending on how they do it). That's far different from deciding to go down there themselves. Victor-6 was PK'd just today for going down there as part of a ROLEPLAY scenario with a workshift and being wiped out by a Vort. That was their first time in the sewer - something I was told just yesterday "couldn't happen".

My understanding is that RLs lead sweeps, not dispatch - and RLs have the power to hold people back from sweeps if they want to, whether it's requested or not. Two vortigaunts randomly ran into cops underground, six were close enough to be relevant to the fight. One vortigaunt was surrounded and killed, the other vortigaunt ran and killed a single cop as they went, the cop in question positioned themself to pursue the vortigaunt and fire on it as it ran, so it got blasted and died. Those that did not do this were fine, even those that were knocked down and were helped back up by their cops and made it out of the sewers alive. To be clear, the cop who was killed was the same cop who killed the other vortigaunt - they were risking their life for those kills and they paid the price. It may have been their first sweep, but they weren't terrified and thrust into a situation with little understanding, they dived head first to get some kills and died in the process. This isn't an indictment of the player or the character, both are wonderful and it's the end of a tragic story that has brought them here.

Its even worse for rebels and vorts who can be killed by NPC's down there

I think the fact you lose every item on death is already punishing enough for NPC deaths, and NPC pks are silly - so this should probably be reduced/removed.

 

[swagile]

My understanding is that RLs lead sweeps, not dispatch - and RLs have the power to hold people back from sweeps if they want to, whether it's requested or not. Two vortigaunts randomly ran into cops underground, six were close enough to be relevant to the fight. One vortigaunt was surrounded and killed, the other vortigaunt ran and killed a single cop as they went, the cop in question positioned themself to pursue the vortigaunt and fire on it as it ran, so it got blasted and died. Those that did not do this were fine, even those that were knocked down and were helped back up by their cops and made it out of the sewers alive. To be clear, the cop who was killed was the same cop who killed the other vortigaunt - they were risking their life for those kills and they paid the price. It may have been their first sweep, but they weren't terrified and thrust into a situation with little understanding, they dived head first to get some kills and died in the process. This isn't an indictment of the player or the character, both are wonderful and it's the end of a tragic story that has brought them here.


I think the fact you lose every item on death is already punishing enough for NPC deaths, and NPC pks are silly - so this should probably be reduced/removed.

Don't forget that you lose skills that take OOC weeks to grind on death.

Omegalul.

 

[Rabid]

My understanding is that RLs lead sweeps, not dispatch - and RLs have the power to hold people back from sweeps if they want to, whether it's requested or not. Two vortigaunts randomly ran into cops underground, six were close enough to be relevant to the fight. One vortigaunt was surrounded and killed, the other vortigaunt ran and killed a single cop as they went, the cop in question positioned themself to pursue the vortigaunt and fire on it as it ran, so it got blasted and died. Those that did not do this were fine, even those that were knocked down and were helped back up by their cops and made it out of the sewers alive. To be clear, the cop who was killed was the same cop who killed the other vortigaunt - they were risking their life for those kills and they paid the price. It may have been their first sweep, but they weren't terrified and thrust into a situation with little understanding, they dived head first to get some kills and died in the process. This isn't an indictment of the player or the character, both are wonderful and it's the end of a tragic story that has brought them here.y be reduced/removed.

The other side of the equation is that there is no other way for any of these engagements to go. You are incentivized, if you can, to kill anyone you run into so long as you are capable of doing it - because that's how you keep your character alive. Sewer sweeps are a necessity but currently they're not about roleplay and cannot foster interesting encounters. Hell, they're not even structured to be about making sure there's retaliation for the action that caused them.

They're about doing everything you can to stay alive and if you have to mow down the other guys to do that then sorry lol.

Cops aren't going to risk stopping to capture people, or to roleplay in a tight spot. Why would they? Rebels are the same. They're either going to run, die, or try to wipe the sweep. If I was in that cops shoes and I was near two Vorts who could one-tap me and PK me you better believe I'd mow them down and try to make sure they ACTUALLY ran away and if I was those Vorts I'd PK whoever ran after me to kill my character.

In better circumstances those Vorts could have killed and PK'd several cops, while the cops could have wiped both Vorts.

Bearing in mind, again, they were all down there to roleplay with a workshift. Not kill rebels/cops.

Hell, if I wanted to be incredibly 'paranoid' I could point out that this setup is perfect for people who're feeling bitter to just go and kill characters. Its literally the ultimate 'S2K' (TBC) incentivize.

I think the fact you lose every item on death is already punishing enough for NPC deaths, and NPC pks are silly - so this should probably be reduced/removed.

I honestly thought NPC deaths being PKable was a joke at first until I saw the Barnacle appeals. NLR's are damaging enough.

 

[Bodger]

Oh No! People roleplaying sometimes lose! This is totally unfair in every way possible, we can't let this go on. If people aren't winning all the time what's the point in playing!?

 

[Sagsworth]

The other side of the equation is that there is no other way for any of these engagements to go. You are incentivized, if you can, to kill anyone you run into so long as you are capable of doing it - because that's how you keep your character alive. Sewer sweeps are a necessity but currently they're not about roleplay and cannot foster interesting encounters. They're about doing everything you can to stay alive and if you have to mow down the other guys to do that then sorry lol.

If willard used s2k, this would be the only way. But TBC seems to be designed to allow people to run, most damage is very low, you run way faster without your weapons out, and your enemy has to sacrifice their ability to fight if they pursue you. The idea that killing everyone is the only way to get out of a sweep is something that has come from servers that exclusively use S2K for these situations, and thank god we don't use it here.

Cops aren't going to risk stopping to capture people, or to roleplay in a tight spot. Why would they? Rebels are the same. They're either going to run, die, or try to wipe the sweep. If I was in that cops shoes and I was near two Vorts who could one-tap me and PK me you better believe I'd mow them down and try to make sure they ACTUALLY ran away and if I was those Vorts I'd PK whoever ran after me to kill my character.

You're able to roleplay between turns, during the previous two sweeps people stopped using their weapons to grab their fallen allies who were in bleedout mode to run away. This is simply not true, and the last situation proved it because people don't want to get PK'ed, they play smarter.

In better circumstances those Vorts could have killed and PK'd several cops, while the cops could have wiped both Vorts.

Yes, but because of the fear brought about by PK risk, neither side did this. If this was a situation where vortigaunts were NLR on death because they're in the sewers, and cops are NLR on death because it's a sweep - obviously both sides push as hard as possible to get a victory.

Bearing in mind, again, they were all down there to roleplay with a workshift. Not kill rebels/cops.

They were there to roleplay with a workshift, and then some of them pursued a vortigaunt - and one of those that did died. They chose to chase them down and continue to fight that final vort rather than enjoy the fact they already beat one.

The situation was sad, someone died on each side - the rebels came off way worse, permanently losing a free vortigaunt. In this situation, Var'Nagh abandoned one of his few kin left to save his own skin, that's character development, and sometimes it comes from death, and the choices our characters make in life and death moments. To remove that risk means there is no problem with everyone just murdering eachother, and the only development comes from whoever won and took the gear / vortigaunt boots as a meme.

 

[The Milkman]

We just wanted to go down to fix the elevator...........

 

[Sagsworth]

We just wanted to go down to fix the elevator...........

No elevator for you, stay out of sewers - my house.
We blew it up for a reason

 

[Rabid]

Oh No! People roleplaying sometimes lose! This is totally unfair in every way possible, we can't let this go on. If people aren't winning all the time what's the point in playing!?

If this was aimed at my suggestion I really don't know what to say lol

This 'progressive community' denied two PK appeals because the server crashed and two rebels got grabbed and killed by a respawned NPC that'd previously been killed before the crash. If you can seriously sit there and tell me that is not only valid but an acceptable situation to 'lose' in then priorities are well and truly fucked.

If willard used s2k, this would be the only way. But TBC seems to be designed to allow people to run, most damage is very low, you run way faster without your weapons out, and your enemy has to sacrifice their ability to fight if they pursue you. The idea that killing everyone is the only way to get out of a sweep is something that has come from servers that exclusively use S2K for these situations, and thank god we don't use it here.

And yet one of the most common complaints I've seen are that sweeps happen for precious little and steamroll everything they see. If things weren't as lethal as you claim and more people survived than died, why would anyone have an issue with how they worked? This strikes me more as the classic "well it didn't happen to me" syndrome. Not necessarily from you, but from the people who haven't been PK'd or otherwise had issue.

As I've said before, eventually a sweep or encounter is going to go far more south than was planned for and there's going to be a lot of PK appeals or a lot of disgruntled people. It's better to address this now before it does.

The intricacies of TBC aside, the sewers are still far too lethal.

 

[RedHotGinger]

Honestly not that many people die in the sewers at all. Death only typically comes to those that think its a good idea to continue lurking about in dangerous areas with half-health or coughing their lungs up. But honestly, not many actual full deaths occur down there. I am not kidding when I say more people have probably been killed on the surface than in the sewers. A few that have were voluntary. The reason cops are PK'ed is to ensure that the experience is fair for rebels and anti-citizens. As well as giving them a degree of incentive to actually resist.

As for PK's in general? They are inevitable, and frankly a positive thing for a servers lifetime. We are all just playing characters in a story and the death of characters is a way to keep it moving. Yes, it sucks. But much RP can rise from where characters lie. The story carries on with those who knew them doing the same.

Also see @Sagsworth's latest suggestion to where they can also be pushed to go down there because Scanners are going down and doing stuff to trigger sweeps. Its all incredibly silly.

I have never seen scanners go down without a large patrol of CP's to accompany them. So this is just false, which is not a big surprise since you dont even seem to play the server much at all judging by your post.

For Cops, they're literally forced down there as part of the faction duties in responding to rebels and keeping things ticking

Yes, being a CP isn't actually just about blowing the heads off of unarmed citizens. Sometimes you are called to deal with actual threats - and these threats can sometimes do harm to you. This is a poor argument as it implies CP's should have full autonomy to PK half the server, but be immune to such a fate themselves. While also ignoring the fact that anyone who brings a character under the mantle of Civil Protection knows full well what can happen. Its not a danger-free position. Cops can attempt to avoid it ICly however they choose regardless. Whether it works, isnt up to us.

 

[Das]

PKs cause of NPCs is stupid in my opinion but dying in a valid roleplay scenario is not.

 

[Sagsworth]

And yet one of the most common complaints I've seen are that sweeps happen for precious little and steamroll everything they see.

The problem we've had with sweeps is this, there are currently three reasons that OTA will sweep:
1. Two cop patrols die
2. A camera is destroyed
3. A vortigaunt is spotted

What we think is silly is that OTA are called when rebels destroy cameras that the Combine places underground, and if a free vortigaunt is spotted under any circumstnaces. The changes introduced have made this less likely, with Civil Protection being the first port of call in these situations, and talks between rebel reps, OTA leads and CP leads have been productive in coming to what hopefully will soon be some better rules for these kinds of sweeps.

 

[Rabid]

As well as giving them a degree of incentive to actually resist.

This justification has always bugged the hell out of me.

Your reason for roleplaying a rebel and resisting shouldn't be off of the idea that "well if I die I might be able to kill their character too teehee!" - that's not something the server should be promoting. If cops weren't forced to respond to keep the OOC balance and IC retribution, how many of them would willingly run after armed rebels? Probably not many.

But you need them to, so rebels can't bomb shit and kill cops unopposed. That's not an IC reason, that's an OOC one. This is city roleplay and things can't go too far. You can't literally have the faction refuse to respond, so they get strongarmed into it. As a result, they risk a PK because they're doing their faction job for the health of the server.

And because of that - and the lethality of the sewers - everyone gets PK'd. Rebels who aren't involved get shot, so to make that fair Cops have to be at risk of a PK as well.

A better system for EVERYONE would be to only PK those that actually caused the sweep to begin with. Not give them carte-blanche to mow anyone down in the sewers to push 'lethality'.

This is mainly a cop-centric post because the rebel issues are another kettle of fish but still related and I don't find forcing PK's on people for something they're made to do palatable.

 

[Bodger]

But you need them to, so rebels can't bomb shit and kill cops unopposed. That's not an IC reason, that's an OOC one. This is city roleplay and things can't go too far. You can't literally have the faction refuse to respond, so they get strongarmed into it. As a result, they risk a PK because they're doing their faction job for the health of the server.

"Oh no, something I volunteered to do has endangered my characters life! Unlike rebel PK's, I'll only lose the character and get demoted a single rank, this is completely unfair!"

 

[Stinky Rags]

Please remove PKs by NPCs that’s all I ask.

 

[Rabid]

"Oh no, something I volunteered to do has endangered my characters life! Unlike rebel PK's, I'll only lose the character and get demoted a single rank, this is completely unfair!"

So the true issue with rebels dying is not the loss of character in your eyes, its the loss of items and gear? LOL

If you bothered to read my post I'm against the fact that uninvolved rebels and vorts die from shit they didn't cause as much as I am that cops can get PK'd for being forced to go in with no way out other than literally going off duty every time.

Also cops don't volunteer to go into the underground because a rebel decided to bomb something or shoot other cops I'm sorry. That isn't how your civil protection faction works.

 

[Bodger]

So the true issue with rebels dying is not the loss of character in your eyes, its the loss of items and gear? LOL

If you bothered to read my post I'm against the fact that uninvolved rebels and vorts die from shit they didn't cause as much as I am that cops can get PK'd for being forced to go in with no way out other than literally going off duty every time.

Also cops don't volunteer to go into the underground because a rebel decided to bomb something or shoot other cops I'm sorry

Oh, personally I believe CP whitelist should be a one life thing, if you die and get PK'ed you should have to make a new char and re-apply, but that's beside the point.

Also, you're misinterpreting what I'm saying. I'm saying that this is RP, a simulation of life in the HL universe. In this life in the HL universe, anyone is able to die for any reason, just like real life. If people fear character deaths for whatever reason, be it loss of a developed character, items, gear, whatever, there will be more quality RP because they can't just complain and get the situation reversed or re-done.

It doesn't matter if you're a cop or a rebel, you can lose a character in any way, be it stupid, not your fault, meaningful, or quick and unnoticed. Death should actually mean something in RP, not just an OOC hurdle to jump through to continue a story that's worse off from you ripping up RP and character development so you don't have to make a new char.

 

[Rabid]

Oh, personally I believe CP whitelist should be a one life thing, if you die and get PK'ed you should have to make a new char and re-apply, but that's beside the point.

No offence but thank god it isn't like this. That's one hell of a way to kill activity stone dead in the faction, especially given you are - again - literally forced into PKable situations unlike every other faction (even rebels).

I'm saying that this is RP, a simulation of life in the HL universe. In this life in the HL universe, anyone is able to die for any reason, just like real life. If people fear character deaths for whatever reason, be it loss of a developed character, items, gear, whatever, there will be more quality RP because they can't just complain and get the situation reversed or re-done.

You are right to a degree, and I used to prescribe to that mentality myself.

But over the long years I've been roleplaying on Gmod I've realised that eventually it passes a point of being fun and death does not inherently enhance any roleplay experience simply because you died. Unlike real life, those emotional bonds aren't real. Those people you lost aren't real.

If you lose someone important to you in real life, you feel it. That grief or rage or whatever sticks with you and shapes you as a person - you lose someone in this one life we all have. In roleplay? Its a character. You'll get maybe a few passing mentions and those people who didn't die will move on as if you never existed. In a week or so you'll be lucky if your character is ever mentioned again.

Is that really worth arbitrarily making the server HYPER LETHAL as if we're in 2013 until it is realised that eventually people would rather keep their characters alive to enjoy them by only playing at certain times, in certain 100% safe locations or by just not playing at all? If it hasn't happened yet (and to a degree it has), it will do eventually.

Hyper lethality only goes that one way and it isn't player retention. Quality RP isn't dictated by how many ways you can get PK'd.

It doesn't matter if you're a cop or a rebel, you can lose a character in any way, be it stupid, not your fault, meaningful, or quick and unnoticed. Death should actually mean something in RP, not just an OOC hurdle to jump through to continue a story that's worse off from you ripping up RP and character development so you don't have to make a new char.

What RP was gained by the deaths of those two rebels who died to a server-respawned NPC after a crash? None. But they remained PK'd anyway because the rule is the rule and it was valid by said rule, regardless of the very sensible objections to such a thing.

A rule should never be so absolute that it gets in the way of the actual reasons people are here - to roleplay in the setting.

Yes, death should happen. Yes, things should have risk. But they should be fair and proportional. Not just "well if you die here in any way bro, your story is done. Better make the best of it".

That's more important now than ever that the Resistance has been forced to live in the one place they were never meant to because the slums are a death trap.

 

[HOKI]

No offence but thank god it isn't like this. That's one hell of a way to kill activity stone dead in the faction, especially given you are - again - literally forced into PKable situations unlike every other faction (even rebels).



You are right to a degree, and I used to prescribe to that mentality myself.

But over the long years I've been roleplaying on Gmod I've realised that eventually it passes a point of being fun and death does not inherently enhance any roleplay experience simply because you died. Unlike real life, those emotional bonds aren't real. Those people you lost aren't real.

If you lose someone important to you in real life, you feel it. That grief or rage or whatever sticks with you and shapes you as a person - you lose someone in this one life we all have. In roleplay? Its a character. You'll get maybe a few passing mentions and those people who didn't die will move on as if you never existed. In a week or so you'll be lucky if your character is ever mentioned again.

Is that really worth arbitrarily making the server HYPER LETHAL as if we're in 2013 until it is realised that eventually people would rather keep their characters alive to enjoy them by only playing at certain times, in certain 100% safe locations or by just not playing at all? If it hasn't happened yet (and to a degree it has), it will do eventually.

Hyper lethality only goes that one way and it isn't player retention. Quality RP isn't dictated by how many ways you can get PK'd.



What RP was gained by the deaths of those two rebels who died to a server-respawned NPC after a crash? None. But they remained PK'd anyway because the rule is the rule and it was valid by said rule, regardless of the very sensible objections to such a thing.

A rule should never be so absolute that it gets in the way of the actual reasons people are here - to roleplay in the setting.

Yes, death should happen. Yes, things should have risk. But they should be fair and proportional. Not just "well if you die here in any way bro, your story is done. Better make the best of it".

That's more important now than ever that the Resistance has been forced to live in the one place they were never meant to because the slums are a death trap.

PK from npcs is a great thing unironically. Instead of them being annoying, they are genuinely dangerous

 

[Conundrum]

No offence but thank god it isn't like this. That's one hell of a way to kill activity stone dead in the faction, especially given you are - again - literally forced into PKable situations unlike every other faction (even rebels).

CWU being dragged into both a Priority and a Mandatory Workshift in the Sewers by Civil Protection would like to have some recognition too you know...