Issues About Distribution

[RogueSynapse]

The Problem: How goods are able to get into the pockets of needed customers has been something that I and many others have started to take issue with as of lately. As of right now, the only method of obtaining goods is to visit a store which houses a licensed citizen who hopefully has the specific license you need. The issue right now is this isn't proving to be very effective due to OOC issues at the moment. Nearly every store, every kiosk, is occupied by a licensed citizen. This itself is not an issue, it's the fact that 3/4ths of these individuals are either not running their shops (either doing other things on the same character or another character) or they simply are not getting on the server at all. I tried to do a bit of data collection here but things get a little difficult when trying to source information as a normal player (See data for specifics).

The problem goes further in the fact that there is a reluctance to distribute more licenses to citizens due to the fact that there are already so many in circulation on paper. Citizens are not able to get the things they need due to this, and even in the off chance that a store owner does flag on and utilize their businesses, weather they have the specific license they need or not is hit or miss.

So what if you are having a hard time getting goods? The problem continues because a lack of access to goods means that other game mechanics fail to be utilized or do not reach maximum efficiency. Passive RP for chefs cannot occur because cooks do not have ingredients or supplies. Skill development through tinkering and construction cannot progress because citizens don't have components either. It's a lack of potential that needs an effective solution to get the blood of the economy and social engagement flowing.

Disclaimer: Simply replying with "Well I was on this day selling XYZ is not a synthesis to the problem. This has nothing to do with individual sellers but the broadband market and its reliability."

Data: Four days of evaluation:

Day 1: 5/13 Active Businesses: 38.46%
Day 2: 3/13 Active Businesses: 23.08%
Day 3 5/13 Active Businesses: 38.46%
Day 4: 2/13 Active Businesses: 15.39%

Out of the 23 players I questioned 6/23 of them felt confident that they could obtain a good they needed from a player ran store. (26.09% integrity.)

Solution: My solutions proposes the following.

Allow all citizens to buy any goods from the basic terminal like they would if they had a license, but charge them at a very elevated premium for the import.

This means that a citizen who really needs something but can't find a seller isn't doomed to AFK and wait for a seller to hop on for hours on end only to be disappointed when none show.

Have distribution permits instead allow sellers the ability to buy goods at a very high discount which means that buying from players will always be the better and cheaper option. That way player businesses still get priority selling action but when stores are in a dry spell because of activity, the rest of the player base doesn't suffer from an OOC issue.

 

[swagile]

This is a good suggestion honestly, and as CWU management I have noticed a lack of activity. I only know 3 stores that actively do stuff in my timezone and I am quite active. By that I mean The Pint, Bernards, and J&N Toolstore. The rest have pretty poor activity, or we just removed their owners and got new ones (like Triumph 1).

I don't know how a terminal would work because the NPC's we have right now work on chips, not credits, so this would require some development work I believe.

 

[RogueSynapse]

This is a good suggestion honestly, and as CWU management I have noticed a lack of activity. I only know 3 stores that actively do stuff in my timezone and I am quite active. By that I mean The Pint, Bernards, and J&N Toolstore. The rest have pretty poor activity, or we just removed their owners and got new ones (like Triumph 1).

I don't know how a terminal would work because the NPC's we have right now work on chips, not credits, so this would require some development work I believe.

I think some sort of variant of a check system would work. When a player brings up the barter menu in tab, there are two listed prices. One is a citizen premium and the other is a permit holder price.

Here's an example of how I think it could work.

Vinegar:
Permit Holder Price: 6 Credits
Citizen Premium Price: 11 Credits

*In this case the permit holder can buy it for 6, sell it for 9, and make a profit at a price better than the citizen premium.*

 

[Thriina]

This is needed. So badly. I too have noticed that store owners are excessively inactive or just don't open their shops.

As Swagile said, McBernard's, The Pint and the Toolstore are the most active currently.

The citizen import thing is a good idea but even just finding a way to resolve the crisis of goods not finding their ways into the hands of citizens without upending the entire system in place would be acceptable as well.

 

[Conundrum]

The "buy items for a premium from a terminal" idea was an old one considered long ago.

Concerns:

People will buy items from whatever method is convenient for them, regardless of the premium costs. This is just an inevitability and would harm stores more than anything. It may be convenient for players, but it has a ripple effect of further invalidating the systems in place.​

Anyone and their mother can buy an item, thus making it an impossibility to curate who can buy what. We'll start seeing cases of rampant abuse of stock and the Ministry of Commerce will need to begin setting laws in place and viewing the financial logs of every player on the server.​

Stores will grow further inactive as fewer people actually visit them to get the necessary goods. Thus just perpetuating and reinforcing our current problems.​

​

---

I understand the frustrations with stores and I'd love nothing more than for stores to be active. But seeing as this is a game and real life comes first, that'll always be very difficult to achieve and most often end in failure 90% of the time. All stores will burn out, most just tend to do it far quicker than others.

I'm not entirely against terminals or vending machines, but I believe with stores as they are now the introduction of this suggestion will just make matters worse than before.

 

[BUSH WOOKIE]

IRS RP when?

 

[RogueSynapse]

People will buy items from whatever method is convenient for them, regardless of the premium costs. This is just an inevitability and would harm stores more than anything. It may be convenient for players, but it has a ripple effect of further invalidating the systems in place.

With the way that the economy is set up right now, people are not going to get all their shopping done in one day. Especially at this new elevated citizen premium, if citizens buy from just the terminals alone, they may get away with buying only a small handful of items at the most. Big purchases are going to take even longer to make.

"This is just an inevitability and would harm stores more than anything. It may be convenient for players, but it has a ripple effect of further invalidating the systems in place."

This is what is referred to as a false dilemma/false dichotomy, meaning that there is an assumption made without any sort of history or evidence to back this up. Just because there are multiple options of acquiring goods does not mean businesses will suffer because of this. Right now you can buy soda cans from vending machines at a premium similar to the methods mentioned in my solution but people consistently prefer to buy them from player ran shops when they can because they are cheaper and they are not about to spend hours of ration farming on a can of water if they can help it.

Anyone and their mother can buy an item, thus making it an impossibility to curate who can buy what. We'll start seeing cases of rampant abuse of stock and the Ministry of Commerce will need to begin setting laws in place and viewing the financial logs of every player on the server.

That's a good thing. Creates RP in an attempt to establish regulation. That thing we can't do right now because no stores are open.

Stores will grow further inactive as fewer people actually visit them to get the necessary goods. Thus just perpetuating and reinforcing our current problems.

Again, false dilemma/false dichotomy. This just means they have a better window in the open market to appeal to sellers. They now become the cheapest option of getting goods. Their preference as an option actually increases because of this. If a store opens regardless of the profit threshold, they will now have that bonus of "Hey, at least we are cheaper than the citizen premium. Get em' while they are hot."

 

[Conundrum]

Again, false dilemma/false dichotomy.

Every time someone buys from a terminal that is one less time they will visit a store, which is one less customer that store has, which further adds to their view that no one wants to buy from their store, which further demotivates them into not signing on as the common theme is "standing behind a counter is boring", which perpetuates the complaints that a store is not active.

Rinse and repeat.

It's not a false dichotomy, it is a fact born from complaints on both sides of the river.

If automation like this was to be added I'd honestly suggest not allowing anyone to buy anything at will, but for Stores to have vending machines they can manually stock so people can buy goods while they are offline.

 

[RogueSynapse]

Every time someone buys from a terminal that is one less time they will visit a store, which is one less customer that store has, which further adds to their view that no one wants to buy from their store, which further demotivates them into not signing on as the common theme is "standing behind a counter is boring", which perpetuates the complaints that a store is not active.

Rinse and repeat.

It's not a false dichotomy, it is a fact born from complaints on both sides of the river.

The only reason they WOULD buy from a terminal is because no businesses are on or active. It will ALWAYS be cheaper to buy from a player run store. Nobody is going to pay an extra 7-40 credits for a good they can get cheaper elsewhere, it's how it is in the real world too. Terminals are a last resort measure for people who really need something but the OOC limitations are holding back from them being able to do anything about it.

 

[Conundrum]

The only reason they WOULD buy from a terminal is because no businesses are on or active. It will ALWAYS be cheaper to buy from a player run store. Nobody is going to pay an extra 7-40 credits for a good they can get cheaper elsewhere, it's how it is in the real world too. Terminals are a last resort measure for people who really need something but the OOC limitations are holding back from them being able to do anything about it.

If automation like this was to be added I'd honestly suggest not allowing anyone to buy anything at will, but for Stores to have vending machines they can manually stock so people can buy goods while they are offline.

What a nice compromise this would be and would alleviate your concerns while also preventing blatant abuse of the permit system.

 

[RogueSynapse]

If automation like this was to be added I'd honestly suggest not allowing anyone to buy anything at will, but for Stores to have vending machines they can manually stock so people can buy goods while they are offline.

Again, this requires players to be active in order to restock/set up the machine. There's nothing stopping someone from buying all the goods and forcing players to wait another several days before they get back on to collect credits and restock. Actually one could argue that that could in fact have the opposite effect on businesses as well.

"My vending machine is stocked so it's okay if I actually don't get on today."

Vs.

"There are a lot of people on needing goods, I should hop on before they decide to use the citizen premium and wow them with my lower prices."

 

[albertossic]

I think an easier solution to this would just be to change the ways stores function. Increase the amount of work running a store actually involves that isn't just standing behind a counter so people feel encouraged to do it and jack up rent and other obligations so inactive owners are quickly driven out of business.
Also, I think it would help if some of the licenses were compounded and focused a bit more on raw material than finished goods, which store employees could then craft, increasing involvement in the store & possibly widening their range of goods

If overhauls like these lead to stores running more frequently, then your problem might solve itself

But if you really really want a store-independent way to buy goods, I think it should be from the warehouses, not an automated vending machine. Something like a grant application - the drawback is not just a higher price but a higher scrutiny on what you use those items for

 

[Conundrum]

Again, this requires players to be active in order to restock/set up the machine. There's nothing stopping someone from buying all the goods and forcing players to wait another several days before they get back on to collect credits and restock. Actually one could argue that that could in fact have the opposite effect on businesses as well.

"My vending machine is stocked so it's okay if I actually don't get on today."

Vs.

"There are a lot of people on needing goods, I should hop on before they decide to use the citizen premium and wow them with my lower prices."

Maybe it could have an adverse effect. But as you said, all you care about is items being available to buy when you need them. This would solve that, while also ensuring money exchanges hands and remains within the economy. Vending machines can have a price modifier as well. Base price +25% or more to make it more appealing to walk in and talk to the person at the counter to get what you want.

I'm entirely against using spawn-in terminals when a more player-focused alternative can exist.

 

[Robert]

Devs are looking into a solution to this. A few concepts are in mind, please continue discussing in the meantime if you so wish.

 

[Merlinsclaw]

Maybe we should just kick people out of inactive stores and up the cash in rations

 

[Tengu]

I gave this a bit of a read, still reading as new messages get posted while I write this, and I wanted to mention at least from my perspective as a business owner..
I try to be active most if not every day, even if its only for an hour. Due to my timezone and increase activity with work/life balance I can usually keep somewhat active, but ultimately I tend to rely on employees within the roster to be active as well, which isn't always possible.

If automation like this was to be added I'd honestly suggest not allowing anyone to buy anything at will, but for Stores to have vending machines they can manually stock so people can buy goods while they are offline.

I love the idea of this, zero question it would assist in the ability for citizens to purchase goods, be it from there favorite store or the cheapest option. Perhaps with some kind of convenience fee set by the owner, suchandsuch% or something.
If it were possible to make, perhaps a vending machine that acts similar to the dropbox where you(The shopkeeper) purchase goods from the barter menu (POS Terminal), and can choose to send them to either the vending machine or to the dropbox to sell? This keeps it somewhat in shop, in a manner of speaking

Also, I know I say I love the idea of vending machines and access to goods for citizens, but I'd be a fool to not point out the downside I keep seeing come to my mind.
Tbh, I'm partially against the idea of citizen premium/ vending machines as well. Forgive me if I'm wrong as I'm not intimate with the lore of Willard just yet, but in a Union society it wouldn't necessarily make sense to have all the needs of the daily citizen, certainly Non-loyalist ones, readily available to appease them.. right? I would imagine that having shops open to buy goods in itself is a sort of luxury for the average citizens. But that's just my thought on it, maybe it's the lack of coffee this morning

 

[swagile]

I think an easier solution to this would just be to change the ways stores function. Increase the amount of work running a store actually involves that isn't just standing behind a counter so people feel encouraged to do it and jack up rent and other obligations so inactive owners are quickly driven out of business.
Also, I think it would help if some of the licenses were compounded and focused a bit more on raw material than finished goods, which store employees could then craft, increasing involvement in the store & possibly widening their range of goods

If overhauls like these lead to stores running more frequently, then your problem might solve itself

But if you really really want a store-independent way to buy goods, I think it should be from the warehouses, not an automated vending machine. Something like a grant application - the drawback is not just a higher price but a higher scrutiny on what you use those items for

I like this idea more tbh; store inactivity is a thing because its really not interactive nor is there anything you can do besides sit behind a counter.

Having stores actually have to craft their stuff would be kinda nice; could open up the component permit (and also helps surface RP a bit more :troll: ), since there is a legitimate reason why workers are skilled now; they work in stores or make stuff with / for stores to sell.

Cause right now being a shop owner is boring; you have almost no way to differentiate so your job is to be a literal NPC that sells stuff and occasionally RPs with people. Not a good way to keep people interested in keeping a store.

 

[Tengu]

I like this idea more tbh; store inactivity is a thing because its really not interactive nor is there anything you can do besides sit behind a counter.

Having stores actually have to craft their stuff would be kinda nice; could open up the component permit (and also helps surface RP a bit more :troll: ), since there is a legitimate reason why workers are skilled now; they work in stores or make stuff with / for stores to sell.

Cause right now being a shop owner is boring; you have almost no way to differentiate so your job is to be a literal NPC that sells stuff and occasionally RPs with people. Not a good way to keep people interested in keeping a store.

Crafting stuff to sell would most certainly be a fun idea but also need to keep in mind that, at least from my end, goods are bought in the moment for customers and not always just one thing.. meaning that we'd need to buy all of the needed components, retrieve them, and craft them. This would take up far more time, not only in the menu but having to do more math for component cost(ew..) and if multiple ppl are in line, it will take an absurd amount of time, especially for larger quantity orders.
Edit: Most goods, I would imagine components as well, have a limit to how many you can buy before they restock.. This could hinder availability of certain goods unintentionally unless you give it either a faster restock time or a higher limit of purchase.

 

[swagile]

Crafting stuff to sell would most certainly be a fun idea but also need to keep in mind that, at least from my end, goods are bought in the moment for customers and not always just one thing.. meaning that we'd need to buy all of the needed components, retrieve them, and craft them. This would take up far more time, not only in the menu but having to do more math for component cost(ew..) and if multiple ppl are in line, it will take an absurd amount of time, especially for larger quantity orders.
Edit: Most goods, I would imagine components as well, have a limit to how many you can buy before they restock.. This could hinder availability of certain goods unintentionally unless you give it either a faster restock time or a higher limit of purchase.

Yeah thats another issue, a lot of the good stores keep running into limits; Bernard has hit his stock limit like 5 times in a row now because people buy from him all the time.

We really need to de-limit that for active stores as it actively punishes stores that do good.

 

[Tengu]

Yeah thats another issue, a lot of the good stores keep running into limits;

How I feel about audiobooks ;-; (Which I understand but still..)