Implemented Additional Vortigaunt Buffs

[Rabid]

Few problems that I can see in this:

1) Vorts are forced to stay in the sewers to survive - which puts them at the mercy of literally anything anyone does if cops come down and are at constant risk of PK no matter how 'safe' they try to be. I think that needs to change, personally.

2) Vorts vs OTA is a slanted debate in a way because you won't see OTA randomly. Cops can bump into Vorts pretty much anytime. What then? Do OTA get deployed simply because Vorts have been confirmed and tip the scales, or do Cops fight at a technical 'handicap'? That's why throwing OTA at Vorts ever is a weird choice.

3) Balancing Vorts is difficult as hell when you factor in TBC. In S2K they're "balanced" by the fact their massive damage is dealt in a beam and they're forced to try and be pinpoint to kill. How well does that translate to TBC? Do you turn Vorts into walking nukes because suddenly their enemy isn't ducking and dodging constantly?

I know nerfing the time seems viable and it is needed but I legitimately don't know how you'd make that balanced.

 

[HOKI]

2) Vorts vs OTA is a slanted debate in a way because you won't see OTA randomly. Cops can bump into Vorts pretty much anytime. What then? Do OTA get deployed simply because Vorts have been confirmed and tip the scales, or do Cops fight at a technical 'handicap'? That's why throwing OTA at Vorts ever is a weird choice.

OTA only deploys after 10 deaths (of cps) in 30 minutes, or so I have been told. CPs will always attempt to contain or kill any rebel presence/vortigaunt presence, and if they fail (say, a 10-man cp sweep gets dumpstered), OTA will deploy. How many deploy, I don't know.

 

[Robert]

1. A decrease in firing time for the vortibeam. I haven't measured the time of firing myself, but DeNuke has reported this to me; Currently, it takes three seconds to fire the vortibeam. This means in TBC, you have around 2 seconds to think / aim / position before firing, or else you lose your turn. This is on-top of our attack already costing 2 AP. In Episode 2, it takes vortigaunts one second fire the beam. Not only would decreasing the firing time give vortigaunts more time in TBC, it would make this faction that's abysmal in S2K possibly viable.

Tested it myself, found the shot to be slower but looking at the code, it is using the animation time provided by the framework of Helix which in turn comes from the Source Engine. So according to the animation provided, the beam is firing in line with the time the Source Engine itself provides for a Vort Firing Anim.

Requires further investigation

2. An inherent speed buff. As of now, I believe OTA are given a static boost to multiple stats (I think I saw +40? I'm not sure.) What I'd advocate for is a +20-+30 to Vortigaunts for speed. The most important reason for this change is that you are given a free movement token at level 30. With this, vortigaunts restrictions are lifted quite a bit, and they become much more viable than just a sentry-turret in combat. I wouldn't be pushing for this if leveling the speed skill wasn't incredibly difficult, and as such many vortigaunts are left being incredibly weaker than they should be, until they can get through the incredibly long grind.

This can be done. I can give a buff for Liberated and Free vort classes to have additional speed vs an enslaved Biotic.

But this does require quite a bit of consideration on the CP vs Rebels side. Since unlike OTA, Vorts have no limitations to stop them steamrolling CPs. So in that scenario... OTA may be deployed more often for vorts because of the sudden threat increase. Its a tough question, but I did speak to you earlier in regards to this that 1.3 vorts is roughly the estimate it requires to equal 1 OTA, meaning a Vort + Rebel or 2 vorts can easily take down a single OTA. And we may be changing how OTA works in the near future in regards to its deployments, which will further be explained after the Winter Break.

Lots of changes are on the way for the Winter break I believe so when you come back, lots would've changed.

 

[Deleted member 2330]

Tested it myself, found the shot to be slower but looking at the code, it is using the animation time provided by the framework of Helix which in turn comes from the Source Engine. So according to the animation provided, the beam is firing in line with the time the Source Engine itself provides for a Vort Firing Anim.

Requires further investigation


This can be done. I can give a buff for Liberated and Free vort classes to have additional speed vs an enslaved Biotic.

My man

 

[nightshade]

Tested it myself, found the shot to be slower but looking at the code, it is using the animation time provided by the framework of Helix which in turn comes from the Source Engine. So according to the animation provided, the beam is firing in line with the time the Source Engine itself provides for a Vort Firing Anim.

Requires further investigation


This can be done. I can give a buff for Liberated and Free vort classes to have additional speed vs an enslaved Biotic.

But this does require quite a bit of consideration on the CP vs Rebels side. Since unlike OTA, Vorts have no limitations to stop them steamrolling CPs. So in that scenario... OTA may be deployed more often for vorts because of the sudden threat increase. Its a tough question, but I did speak to you earlier in regards to this that 1.3 vorts is roughly the estimate it requires to equal 1 OTA, meaning a Vort + Rebel or 2 vorts can easily take down a single OTA. And we may be changing how OTA works in the near future in regards to its deployments, which will further be explained after the Winter Break.

Lots of changes are on the way for the Winter break I believe so when you come back, lots would've changed.

Part of the issue in terms of the swep the beam doesn’t really hit where you’re aiming once the animation is through, it looks to be hitting some spot you were aiming at before the animation was finished.
Vorts might be a bit more viable in S2K if this was fixed somehow. Videos of this are in the discord but I can’t post them here right now.


Do agree with the 1.3 vorts = one OTA for sure.

 

[Aspect™]

@Aspect™ Should probably see this as well, being the one who works on our SWEP.

I'm not working on any Vortigaunt SWEP.

 

[Rabid]

OTA only deploys after 10 deaths (of cps) in 30 minutes, or so I have been told. CPs will always attempt to contain or kill any rebel presence/vortigaunt presence, and if they fail (say, a 10-man cp sweep gets dumpstered), OTA will deploy. How many deploy, I don't know.

Yeah that's fair then, I was more just saying that the comparison that "Vorts are Rebel OTA" even when it doesn't work like that.

But in general balancing the beam with TBC is difficult because you also need to account for S2K and unlike S2K you have a massively powerful beam and your targets aren't moving.

 

[Raptorian]

I'm not working on any Vortigaunt SWEP.

I was told by Robert that you were in charge of this weapon stuff, so I figure you should see it anyways.

 

[Raptorian]

Tested it myself, found the shot to be slower but looking at the code, it is using the animation time provided by the framework of Helix which in turn comes from the Source Engine. So according to the animation provided, the beam is firing in line with the time the Source Engine itself provides for a Vort Firing Anim.

Requires further investigation

Could it be a difference between HL2 vorts and Ep. 2 vorts?

 

[Robert]

I was told by Robert that you were in charge of this weapon stuff, so I figure you should see it anyways.

No I said that since Aspect is lead dev, he may know what dev to chase up about it. Oh well, I can look into now since I have my other works on pause until the christmas break starts.

 

[Raptorian]

No I said that since Aspect is lead dev, he may know what dev to chase up about it. Oh well, I can look into now since I have my other works on pause until the christmas break starts.

Your first mistake was thinking I'm capable of basic communication.

 

[Raptorian]

On the other hand, i could see vorts having their HP nerfed to, like, 125 if not just 100. They arent exactly more durable than humans in lore.

Kind of a late reply but our HP should remain high due to the nature of our attack costing 2 AP. That means sometimes we have to leave ourself slightly exposed if we even want to get a shot off, and I think our HP should accommodate that. Also if we were to put some sort of limit on how fast free vortigaunts can come back like booile suggested, they should be hard to kill anyways.

 

[TheDeNuke]

Honestly the best solution to this endless Vortigaunt Balance debate would be to actually invest in adding the features that I've suggested in the past regarding a limited pool of Vortal Energy and additional ablities apart from just the Vortigaunt Beam and the Vortigaunt Shock.

A lot of these debates ultimately come from the fact that Vortigaunts are highly inflexible at the moment and their entire combat is centered around that dammed beam with no Shockwave, Melee or other ablities to be seen (beyond healing of course). Additionally, there is the factor that the Vortessence Skill is practically non-existant currently and all Vortigaunts might as well just be at 50 skill all the time due to having no limitations to the usage of the Vortigaunt Beam.

Until then I expect this endless debate to not end as implementing too many buffs may result in a OTA massacre and that will result in debuffs.

 

[Raptorian]

Honestly the best solution to this endless Vortigaunt Balance debate would be to actually invest in adding the features that I've suggested in the past regarding a limited pool of Vortal Energy and additional ablities apart from just the Vortigaunt Beam and the Vortigaunt Shock.

A lot of these debates ultimately come from the fact that Vortigaunts are highly inflexible at the moment and their entire combat is centered around that dammed beam with no Shockwave, Melee or other ablities to be seen (beyond healing of course). Additionally, there is the factor that the Vortessence Skill is practically non-existant currently and all Vortigaunts might as well just be at 50 skill all the time due to having no limitations to the usage of the Vortigaunt Beam.

Until then I expect this endless debate to not end as implementing too many buffs may result in a OTA massacre and that will result in debuffs.

Supposedly, the overhaul is to come out after the Christmas break. Until then I want to implement buffs that let vortigaunts stand as they are now while also complementing the overhaul in the future. I don't expect any other buffs after these two, if they're implemented, other than tweaking damage and the like to be lower if needed.

 

[Rabid]

A lot of these debates ultimately come from the fact that Vortigaunts are highly inflexible at the moment and their entire combat is centered around that dammed beam with no Shockwave, Melee or other ablities to be seen (beyond healing of course).

See but the other issue you have is the Shockwave and Melee and whatever else Vorts get in this idea need to be actually viable in TBC/S2K. You need an actual reason to risk running yourself into CQC and possibly set yourself up to take fire or dying before your next turn.

The Shockwave is the best example; if it does not do massive damage/kill whomever is in the radius there's very few situations it would be ever worth it to use it over the beam. You're not going to charge into a cop sweep when none of them will die and you'll get mown down in return. Same with Melee; is there ever a good situation to run up and start throwing hands at a cop if you don't do massive damage?

Extra abilities are great but you are also setting yourself up for a lot more work in regards to balancing Vorts by adding them.

 

[TheDeNuke]

See but the other issue you have is the Shockwave and Melee and whatever else Vorts get in this idea need to be actually viable in TBC/S2K. You need an actual reason to risk running yourself into CQC and possibly set yourself up to take fire or dying before your next turn.

The Shockwave is the best example; if it does not do massive damage/kill whomever is in the radius there's very few situations it would be ever worth it to use it over the beam. You're not going to charge into a cop sweep when none of them will die and you'll get mown down in return. Same with Melee; is there ever a good situation to run up and start throwing hands at a cop if you don't do massive damage?

Extra abilities are great but you are also setting yourself up for a lot more work in regards to balancing Vorts by adding them.

What I forgot to mention is the fact that I would not recommend the addition of these abilities without my initial statement (Vortal Energy pool) as they could not even be easily balanced in the first place without a limited Vortal Energy pool (and thus a way to limit the growth of Vortessence Skill thus locking off advanced abilities behind specific skill levels). Balance becomes less of a concern when the abilities have a limited "ammo" supply. So to speak.

Also, its cool for the Vortigaunts to have full access all of their canon abilities regardless of the utility of these abilities. Skimping out on their abilities because of balance concerns is obnoxious to say the least.

 

[Rabid]

Also, its cool for the Vortigaunts to have full access all of their canon abilities regardless of the utility of these abilities. Skimping out on their abilities because of balance concerns is obnoxious to say the least.

Oh I totally agree, I'm just saying TBC makes balance much harder for Vorts than if you were just factoring in S2K. It doesn't matter how powerful those extra abilities are when everyone is constantly moving and shooting and you can do something as simple as making the AOE root you to the spot when you use it (so people have time to gtfo).

But in TBC, when everyone but you on your turn is unable to move? That's where the abilities have to either be so damaging as to be useful enough to use (and thus will probably necessitate OTA being used as counters more which sucks for everyone else) or they're balanced in damage and so not worth charging in and risking death to use.

That being said the idea of locking these attacks behind skills would inherently balance them better for usre.

 

[RedHotGinger]

In my opinion Vorts need to be left where they are so we can at least feel out how they perform in combat. Vortigaunts are currently desiring to be the 'OTA' of rebels, and as a result, balanced to resist OTA itself. Problem is of course, they don't fight OTA. Not often at all. CP's will be the ones being fought most often. Of course, they also have no rules regarding deployment which means they can just steamroll CP's whenever. It doesn't help that Free vorts are not rare anymore either, since the position is handed out OOC quite often.

Frankly, Vorts should be human support, not the other way around. Thus far, Vorts have held up well in combat and seem entirely capable. At this point, further buffs are just indulgent as far as I can tell. I've only messed with Vorts in testing though, so maybe I'm missing something.

 

[Raptorian]

In my opinion Vorts need to be left where they are so we can at least feel out how they perform in combat. Vortigaunts are currently desiring to be the 'OTA' of rebels, and as a result, balanced to resist OTA itself. Problem is of course, they don't fight OTA. Not often at all. CP's will be the ones being fought most often. Of course, they also have no rules regarding deployment which means they can just steamroll CP's whenever. It doesn't help that Free vorts are not rare anymore either, since the position is handed out OOC quite often.

Frankly, Vorts should be human support, not the other way around. Thus far, Vorts have held up well in combat and seem entirely capable. At this point, further buffs are just indulgent as far as I can tell. I've only messed with Vorts in testing though, so maybe I'm missing something.

The position was handed out OOC once because the faction was completely dead. I don't know where you're getting the impression it happens often.

Also these buffs aren't going to make vortigaunts the OTA-killer-men, really. What I'm really asking for is this: A free movement token for vorts, and for their beam to be sped up.

 

[HOKI]

In my opinion Vorts need to be left where they are so we can at least feel out how they perform in combat. Vortigaunts are currently desiring to be the 'OTA' of rebels, and as a result, balanced to resist OTA itself. Problem is of course, they don't fight OTA. Not often at all. CP's will be the ones being fought most often. Of course, they also have no rules regarding deployment which means they can just steamroll CP's whenever. It doesn't help that Free vorts are not rare anymore either, since the position is handed out OOC quite often.

Frankly, Vorts should be human support, not the other way around. Thus far, Vorts have held up well in combat and seem entirely capable. At this point, further buffs are just indulgent as far as I can tell. I've only messed with Vorts in testing though, so maybe I'm missing something.

As someone who mains Civil Protection, I think its very unfair for vortigaunts to have to charge up their vortbeam for 3 seconds. It makes them useless in S2K, and leaves them with only 2 seconds to aim and whatnot.

I do agree that vorts should be more support than attack, but still, they should be dangerous on their own.