City 24 V4 balance concerns

[RedHotGinger]

First off, map does look good and 24 is still the prime series of maps when it comes to Half Life aesthetic. The new map itself is actually really nice and I like its more oldschool elements. Yet, I do have worries regarding gameplay and server functions despite its allure.

So, something that has caught my attention and maybe has caught some others who have looked into V4. This is that the portions of the map that would typically be considered 'rebel' vastly outnumber the space given to Loyalists/conformists. This isn't technically an absolute problem by itself. However, in the old version of the map, the Combine and CCA were very keen to basically lock loyalists (CMU/CWU are generally forbidden too I believe) out of any 'rebel' areas of the map fairly forcefully. In this new version though, so much of the map is overtaken by what could be considered the slums that I genuinely think a whole new line of thought will need to be drawn up to compensate for this.

See totally not shit drawings below...

Spoiler: Amazing drawings

Red marks the border between where the 'slums' technically begin.
Blue is combine stuff that no average citizen will see often.
Green is faction locked areas. (Didn't bother with CMU since bunch of stuff was on top of it)
It's also worth noting lots of rebel space runs below the plaza itself, and thus is not really seen.

Now, do bear in mind, its ultimately up to the CCA to determine ICly where the slums begins and ends. (Mostly. I mean, there is a pretty definitive line, but that's beside the point.) This choice is going to have a huge impact on how the server functions this time around. Where before the slums and rebel areas made up only a portion of the map, this time around its probably safe to say they take up roughly 50% of the entire space. (counting sewers, slums and new tunnels.) Adding this with Combine exclusive areas, and to a lesser extent, faction controlled areas, the general population has little space to maneuver about the city itself.

I suppose this worry extends to gameplay balance as a whole, so rather than ramble on I'll just bullet my main, personal concerns.


1. Where will loyalists be allowed to go, or not allowed to go in the new map? Where is the line drawn by the Combine in this new version? Especially given many paths intersect. Will the old style of slums vs city just be forgone and they both considered one in the same?

2. Given that our new rebel scene is mostly independent from the "City proper" and requires very little interaction with conformist elements, what will be done to make sure the slums does not just overtake the city as it has done on V3? Being a non-conformist, though not strictly a rebel, is easier than its loyalist counterpart. With a larger space, there is now going to be even more incentive to the general player base to become this.


Note: This all may be totally unfounded as plans may already be drawn up, or even presented that I just don't know about. I'm only asking this from my own perspective. Regardless, keep discussion civil and productive.

 

[Robert]

Quick comment, but I think the best form of balancing here would be pretty much allowing CPs into the slums freely unlike before where they will enter every now and then in squads patrolling the place to compensate for the fact that slums now eats 50% of the map. The fact that slums is so big alone should mean that the Combine will need to change up deployment rules and the ways they handle the slums. As for the tunnels/sewers, those can be left alone with the old rules given the fact not too much has changed with them I believe apart from the added places and a few extra spots to move around.

Not to mention, slums is pretty much become the main area for RP these days so CPs patrolling it should counteract some of the circle-jerking that goes on there and balance it back out since some people are so obsessed with becoming slum dwellers 24/7.

As for loyalists, I think CCA and Combine will need to find a place for them to go or create new rewards for them if nothing can be found for them and they will have to be pretty good rewards given the space & security they just lost I would assume.

Just all I have to say for now.

 

[Kamilisha Haijulikani]

Spoiler: off-topic rant about loyalists & rebels/slums

honestly, making the slums a defacto rebel abandoned zone has been one of the most detrimental cancers to loyalist rp while simultaneously benefiting rebel rp and making it a more fulfilling and enjoyable experience.

it has been a double-edged sword as it makes loyalist rp so much more restrictive in terms of location and its ability to engage with crime in general and the unique flavour it brings with its equally diverse and slum-exclusive characters (ultimately gauging out a ton of potentially interesting scenarios) while giving rebel rp and ghetto folks the freedom to pursue more rich and interesting roleplay in a safe environment.

loyalists definitely get the bitter end of the stick in their areas as well. the slums are much more archaic and dense compared to the plaza, and while people are naturally drawn to the plaza or the slums, compared to the huge street of victory st. with its multiple storefronts, the slums have a much smaller and more condensed area which allows people to be closer to each other and interact more as opposed to spreading out across a huge area or lumping in a single corner to have to rp with folks. rather than naturally engaging in their environment, it forces those who are trying to interact with each other to do it in an awkward and artificial manner not befitting of their environments.


imo it's gotten so bad as even reversing the policy of excluding loyalists from the slums wouldn't fix the problem in itself, as rather than making more flavourful text & engagements, it'll just lead to further victimization of loyalists, as with the new freedom the slum folks got, plus 10x the resources, pretty much anyone has a gun now, which makes all loyalists (t2+) prey to going in that area with their flashy armbands, which really fucking sucks for roleplay, as this has in my opinion permanently divided the two spheres of RP and made two separate camps of characters (one of which far more thrilling & fun to rp) who'll never even get to interact with each other for the most part.


really hope staff & CA can fix this.

i actually like the idea of cutting down space for the general population, as less space means more people will gravitate to certain areas and have more natural interactions in their environment.

 

[Kamilisha Haijulikani]

Not to mention, slums is pretty much become the main area for RP these days so CPs patrolling it should counteract some of the circle-jerking that goes on there and balance it back out since some people are so obsessed with becoming slum dwellers 24/7.

As for loyalists, I think CCA and Combine will need to find a place for them to go or create new rewards for them if nothing can be found for them and they will have to be pretty good rewards given the space & security they just lost I would assume.

Yeah, dividing the city into two has only made rebelrp thrive while being completely detrimental to loyalistrp imo.

ultimately, unlike from earlier willard, loyalist rp which was once the focus and thriving (largely in part due to events organized by denuke, merlin, & others), has completely lost any and all relevance with the bulk majority of attention shifting to rebelrp...

which I am not blaming. it wasn't even a huge shift to focus on slums over city IMO, just one that progressed naturally once forces like merlin, auspicious, and the parties stopped making city rp as interesting as they naturally waned in interest and stopped all resemblance of relevance.

restricting loyalists from slums for t2s+ has also given less flavourful interactions between loyalists & slum characters and has only divided the camp further, something further exacerbated by the fact that there are far more rebels than loyalist, and nearly all of them possessing one firearm or more, something like a 2:1 ratio lol, which would be hard to fix in future (if the server even wants to bother making these factions engage more)

 

[Asimo1234]

V3 and V4 always had a pretty clear zoning scheme to me.

Nexus Grounds: Combine
Willard + Victory: Mixed, leaning pro-combine
Triumph: Mixed, leaning anti-combine
Slums: mixed, almost fully anti-combine. Almost no Combine presence except with justification.
Sewers: No man's land, Vortigaunt hiding place.

This zoning scheme has more or less been thrown to shit with the banning of T2+ from the slums, effectively banning them from interacting with people who have anything to hide from the Combine. (Remember, a butterknife gets you killed)

I think before there was plenty of incentive for high ranking loyalists to not enter the slums, as they'd rightfully be targeted for being conformists. The banning is basically an IC hardlock from allowing people to be pro-union while still enjoying where most of the playerbase is.

The suggestion of allowing CPs to freely patrol the slums clashes with the vision of having the slums be a relative safe spot for rebels. Remember, the sewers are not a safe space. The Gas system is in place to force people to stay on the surface so they can interact with the rest of the playerbase instead of circlejerking around.
Besides the possible incompatibility with the slum philosophy, do not forget what would happen if CPs started to actively patrol the V4 slums, either they'd stack against rebels or get stacked against by rebels. This will either result in an army of i5s or no rebel being able to survive in C24 itself, as staying in the sewers 24/7 isn't possible and any chance of surviving in the slums has been crushed by daily 8 headcount patrols.
Basically, allowing CPs to patrol the slums will force rebels and CPs so close together that escalation is the only solutions. CPs will start patrolling in larger and larger numbers and rebels will be forced to be more and more brazen to defend their turf.

Now if ontop of this we add the possibility of a CP patrol in the slums being able to call in OTA because they got ambushed, yikes.
I'm not against CPs being in the slums, I just think that there is no realistic way it won't end in disaster.


Part of the problem is that basically every anti-combine character becomes a "Rebel" in about 2 hours. It's not hard to get a knife, and having a knife already forces you into the gameplay of having to hide from the CPs. Which slowly forces you to be forced to get better and better gear to survive better.
Simply put, there is no rebel "Lower class". There are no refugees unless the player wants to be a refugee and not advance to a mid tier rebel with a basic weapon.
The gradient should be:
CP/CCA - Loyalist - Combine Supporter - True Neutral - Dissident - Resistance Member - Freedom Fighter (High tier gear)
Sadly in the current state of the server the Dissident is mostly or even completely lacking. Thus the Slums aren't just a forgotten district.
This means that allowing the CPs to patrol the slums essentially means you are allowing them to patrol "the rebel base". As that's what the slums essentially are. Only full scale warfare will come of it.

tl;dr
Loyalists should be allowed in the slums, to protect them having an armband should never be considered a valid PK reason (If it even is)
CPs patrolling slums in the current meta will escalate into open warfare resulting in OTA destroying the slums or Rebels getting crushed by CPs.

 

[Kamilisha Haijulikani]

V3 and V4 always had a pretty clear zoning scheme to me.

Nexus Grounds: Combine
Willard + Victory: Mixed, leaning pro-combine
Triumph: Mixed, leaning anti-combine
Slums: mixed, almost fully anti-combine. Almost no Combine presence except with justification.
Sewers: No man's land, Vortigaunt hiding place.

This zoning scheme has more or less been thrown to shit with the banning of T2+ from the slums, effectively banning them from interacting with people who have anything to hide from the Combine. (Remember, a butterknife gets you killed)

I think before there was plenty of incentive for high ranking loyalists to not enter the slums, as they'd rightfully be targeted for being conformists. The banning is basically an IC hardlock from allowing people to be pro-union while still enjoying where most of the playerbase is.

The suggestion of allowing CPs to freely patrol the slums clashes with the vision of having the slums be a relative safe spot for rebels. Remember, the sewers are not a safe space. The Gas system is in place to force people to stay on the surface so they can interact with the rest of the playerbase instead of circlejerking around.
Besides the possible incompatibility with the slum philosophy, do not forget what would happen if CPs started to actively patrol the V4 slums, either they'd stack against rebels or get stacked against by rebels. This will either result in an army of i5s or no rebel being able to survive in C24 itself, as staying in the sewers 24/7 isn't possible and any chance of surviving in the slums has been crushed by daily 8 headcount patrols.
Basically, allowing CPs to patrol the slums will force rebels and CPs so close together that escalation is the only solutions. CPs will start patrolling in larger and larger numbers and rebels will be forced to be more and more brazen to defend their turf.

Now if ontop of this we add the possibility of a CP patrol in the slums being able to call in OTA because they got ambushed, yikes.
I'm not against CPs being in the slums, I just think that there is no realistic way it won't end in disaster.


Part of the problem is that basically every anti-combine character becomes a "Rebel" in about 2 hours. It's not hard to get a knife, and having a knife already forces you into the gameplay of having to hide from the CPs. Which slowly forces you to be forced to get better and better gear to survive better.
Simply put, there is no rebel "Lower class". There are no refugees unless the player wants to be a refugee and not advance to a mid tier rebel with a basic weapon.
The gradient should be:
CP/CCA - Loyalist - Combine Supporter - True Neutral - Dissident - Resistance Member - Freedom Fighter (High tier gear)
Sadly in the current state of the server the Dissident is mostly or even completely lacking. Thus the Slums aren't just a forgotten district.
This means that allowing the CPs to patrol the slums essentially means you are allowing them to patrol "the rebel base". As that's what the slums essentially are. Only full scale warfare will come of it.

tl;dr
Loyalists should be allowed in the slums, to protect them having an armband should never be considered a valid PK reason (If it even is)
CPs patrolling slums in the current meta will escalate into open warfare resulting in OTA destroying the slums or Rebels getting crushed by CPs.

Honestly, I enjoyed rebelrp more when resources were significantly scarcer, where even acquiring a sharpened knife within a couple of hours was considered difficult. Indigent used to be dominated by the "Lower class" refugees, in that they were primarily only equipped with melees at most, but now anyone can easily become a rebel with a gun. It isn't as challenging, and the grind isn't as fulfilling. The whole concept of an underclass system was just poorly implemented without much consideration. Maybe it would've worked before the availability of more resources for rebel rp when most people had melees, but now it only serves to empower rebel rp even further at loyalist RP's detriment, which is retarded balance-wise.

The one thing I wished they kept from Merlinclaw's original proposal for the underclass system is to treat lower weapons like hammers & knives as insignificant, with CPs either ignoring or confiscating them, which would've raised the bar as to what an underclass or lower class system would've looked, and behaved as, without just categorizing everyone below tier-1.

on a more personal note; loyalistrp is so shitty that my interest has either waned or dried up faster than a pond in the middle of the sahara.

 

[Maroon]

Cops will probably freely patrol a lot of the 'slums' area with higher risks.

 

[Asimo1234]

Cops will probably freely patrol a lot of the 'slums' area with higher risks.

As long as restrictions are in place.
- Limit on the amount of CPs in the slums (No 6 man sweep-at-will groups)
- Limit on escalation (Sending in 2 CPs over and over till they get ambushed so you can rush in with the other 10 you have waiting at the entrance)

The slum's role as being a semi-safe haven still needs to exist in one way or another. Simply annexing the slums into the city by way of "patrolling" (sweeping) it till everyone is dead is probably not great.

But like you said; "a lot of the slums".
Since the slums are so big, patrolling only the shallow parts of the slums still leaves rebels with their safe haven so it doesn't fuck with balance too much. Call it a contested ground.

 

[Appetite Ruining Kebab]

Besides the possible incompatibility with the slum philosophy, do not forget what would happen if CPs started to actively patrol the V4 slums, either they'd stack against rebels or get stacked against by rebels. This will either result in an army of i5s or no rebel being able to survive in C24 itself, as staying in the sewers 24/7 isn't possible and any chance of surviving in the slums has been crushed by daily 8 headcount patrols.
Basically, allowing CPs to patrol the slums will force rebels and CPs so close together that escalation is the only solutions. CPs will start patrolling in larger and larger numbers and rebels will be forced to be more and more brazen to defend their turf.

Now if ontop of this we add the possibility of a CP patrol in the slums being able to call in OTA because they got ambushed, yikes.
I'm not against CPs being in the slums, I just think that there is no realistic way it won't end in disaster.


Part of the problem is that basically every anti-combine character becomes a "Rebel" in about 2 hours. It's not hard to get a knife, and having a knife already forces you into the gameplay of having to hide from the CPs. Which slowly forces you to be forced to get better and better gear to survive better.
Simply put, there is no rebel "Lower class". There are no refugees unless the player wants to be a refugee and not advance to a mid tier rebel with a basic weapon.
The gradient should be:
CP/CCA - Loyalist - Combine Supporter - True Neutral - Dissident - Resistance Member - Freedom Fighter (High tier gear)
Sadly in the current state of the server the Dissident is mostly or even completely lacking. Thus the Slums aren't just a forgotten district.
This means that allowing the CPs to patrol the slums essentially means you are allowing them to patrol "the rebel base". As that's what the slums essentially are. Only full scale warfare will come of it.

This part so incredibly well put that I want to emphasize it again

You need people who are rebel aligned but willing to walk around without gear, the so called 'dissidents', because these are the types of people who can easily do rebel activities within the city, which is the ideal form of interaction between the two parts of the server. As things are now, the city is rarely impacted by the rebels, except when they gather up and do 30 man raids with the best gear they have, which leads to Combine side's response being equally as armed, which culminates in a constant stream of back-and-forths and admin events that are catered to people with high-end gear, which at the end of the day restricts rebelRP into a monoculture of hogging up guns and constantly edging to the highest point of escalation, and everyone has to conform to it or else they'll be left out of the action.


Ultimately it takes away from more nuanced forms of 'rebelling' (think stuff like spreading forbidden literature, creating dissident citizen cliques, beating up loyalists, planning heists etc.) because why do anything that needs an ounce of subtlety or secrecy when you can easily gather up a guerilla squad and bulldoze through the map?

Something needs to be done about the gear proliferation or this is all the server's going to be about come v4

 

[Neonity]

As long as restrictions are in place.

The idea I had for this (and proposed when v4 was first available to testing) was allowing CP's to patrol in limited group as they already do in the city, but only allow them to patrol the lower level of the slums unless it's a sweep. This essentially makes it so that rebels are forced to do their illegal business right aboves CP's, and encourages them to be subtle. If they don't provoke CP's, they're fine.

This should give rebels and slum dwellers some breathing room, and still force them to be careful.

 

[The Milkman]

Honestly I think CPs being able to head into the slums more freely will encourage rebels to not be retards, as well as make more rebel/CP encounters that aren’t just an S2K bind followed by one of the sides getting wiped out in a CS:GO match… or at least it should, but knowing the mentality of most people right now, who knows

 

[Gr4Ss]

The idea I had for this (and proposed when v4 was first available to testing) was allowing CP's to patrol in limited group as they already do in the city, but only allow them to patrol the lower level of the slums unless it's a sweep. This essentially makes it so that rebels are forced to do their illegal business right aboves CP's, and encourages them to be subtle. If they don't provoke CP's, they're fine.

This should give rebels and slum dwellers some breathing room, and still force them to be careful.

Essentially this.

There's plenty above- and below-ground routes to go basically anywhere, or just moving through the buildings. If you don't obviously wear all your gear as a rebel you would be safe from any close encounters by cops, they might see you through a window at most.

Just got to keep CP's out on the streets and not in the buildings.

 

[Maroon]

Honestly I think CPs being able to head into the slums more freely will encourage rebels to not be retards,

That's gonna be the goal of it, yeah. And it'll always be the CP's choice, and seeing how death criteria for them will be harsher in V4, it'll have an actual risk factor for them too.

 

[vilhjalmrf]

I feel like it's extremely dumb for rebels to think that they're even consider safe outside in slums. To openly carrying weapons and wear their gear. It just doesn't make sense. There is an extreme lack of Combine presence in there, but it shouldn't mean you're safe or even semi-safe. It's a dangerous grey area for both CPs and rebels alike. The only time it's safe to come out wearing all your gear in slums is when there's a lack of CPs (server downtime or not enough for a sweep/ranking officer to authorize sweep).

Rebels should be more secretive about their dealings or just mostly hide their red tier contraband they have. And recently, not many have been secretive about it. The really dumb rebels thought it's a great idea to bring guns into Triumph and even Victory street. I can understand maybe a concealed sidearm or SMG in slums, and a concealed melee weapon in the main city.

Edit: And the average dumb rebels wear their gear openly outside in slums then get reported and cause a sweep.

 

[The Milkman]

I just remembered that I am a vort main and casual slum patrols will mean virtually no way of going to the slums to actually roleplay.

 

[Kappatalist]

I just remembered that I am a vort main and casual slum patrols will mean virtually no way of going to the slums to actually roleplay.

I don't have much sympathy for people who casually walk around like rambo in Indigent, but like, this is a bit of a worry for freed vorts..

 

[The Milkman]

I don't have much sympathy for people who casually walk around like rambo in Indigent, but like, this is a bit of a worry for freed vorts..

fake shackles simply will not work because cops will immediately be like "uhm dispatch scan this guys balls!" as soon as they see you

 

[Raptorian]

fake shackles simply will not work because cops will immediately be like "uhm dispatch scan this guys balls!" as soon as they see you

not to mention the elder is retarded and made everyone destroy their IDs

 

[AlexD]

After playing the map in singleplayer, it is pretty obvious the line between the "normal" city and INDIGENT has been completely blurred. I was going to suggest CPs being able to patrol past what used to be the forcefield marking INDIGENT but I'm glad it has already been suggested and thought out. I just hope it doesn't cause certain RP hubs like what has until now been the campfire to be harassed all the time by patrols.

 

[Rabid]

The problem you have is that if cops can come to the slums more often, the majority of rebels won't simply accept that - they'll probably just move to the sewers again to stay uninterrupted. The map not catering to that didn't stop people from doing it last time, after all.

Not to mention if the risks of going to the slums are harsher for cops (who really don't need it harsher imo) then what incentive is there to even go there to make RP or be a danger? Why would I risk going there for a random reason and getting murdered by a trigger-happy rebel and losing my character?

because why do anything that needs an ounce of subtlety or secrecy when you can easily gather up a guerilla squad and bulldoze through the map?

Something needs to be done about the gear proliferation or this is all the server's going to be about come v4

ARK said it best here. V4's balance is going to make V3's situation so much worse if things as-is simply get put there with a map change.