Make Rebels (slightly) Great Again

[ActuallyRakaesa]

Hey guys & gals. I know this is going to be a touchy subject due to recent rebel activities (I'm looking at you, random bombings) but I'd appreciate if you read this with an open mind.

Currently rebels & anticitizens are in a kind of weird spot. It's not too complicated to get equipment and supplies, as has been discussed recently in the discord (more than once, of course.) The big problem is that, currently, that's where it basically ends.

A combination of the state of the map itself (which is tricky due to Source Engine limitations) and sweep/CP rules are making it especially difficult, if not outright impossible, to establish an actually secure, stable group. I'd argue that this is why we've been seeing high-profile rebel activity like bombings--because it's very hard to do anything else. Allow me to explain a little further.

Protected bases were removed as a rule. What this means is that during sweeps CPs are allowed to break into any apartment or base, at any time, without needing an explicit reason to do so. This makes things very tough for anticitizens and rebels at all stages, whether they're just starting out or further down the line of character development, because it means we, literally, have nowhere to hide. Other than a couple of specific locked bases in the sewers, there is genuinely almost no safe places during a sweep. This means that even if you're someone who was completely unrelated to whatever sweep is going on, you're up shit's creek without a paddle. This, coupled with strict PK policies (though I hear that's being actively discussed with changes in the works), makes it highly improbable for any individual anticitizen to survive long enough to make any meaningful progression. This is why we don't see any true cohesive resistance group right now--they're more like sporadic gangs with no real goals, and that's because we lack any form of security.

Without some kind of safety to bases, even if it was only some designated areas being marked as 'protected', it's frustratingly difficult to make any real long term development. A month of character progress doesn't mean anything if we have nowhere to 'settle'--we're just guys carrying around guns.

Don't mistake me, I don't want being an anticitizen to be 'easier'--in fact, I'd advocate that it should be a bit tougher for characters to get started as an anticitizen, and harder to get your hands on anything beyond simple pipe weaponry. My problem isn't that being an anticitizen in general is tough, but that if you do manage to build yourself up, there's nothing waiting for you at the other side.

My Proposal:

My proposals to alleviate some of these issues would be one of two things, currently:

1. Physically add more base locations to the map, or at the very least, 'secret' hidey holes that can be fled to during sweeps. The problem with this solution, after extensive discussion with @Atle , is that the map is already, literally, at the absolute limits of complexity and size within the Source Engine and the Hammer editor. This makes this solution, unfortunately, infeasible.

So, #2:
Reform protected bases and add the policy back in some form. Something akin to CPs not being able to enter bases during sweeps unless they see somebody enter them--or perhaps have been given direct information that people are hiding inside. This will make resistance characters actually able to set up an established base and give themselves a real foothold to work out of.

Right now, through a combination of strict PK policies and zero security in our development, RP on my character has, personally, become purely stressful and no longer fun whatsoever. I'm just looking over my shoulder and frankly feeling like crap when I'm playing. I believe for myself, and for other anticitizens, that roleplay opportunities would be expanded substantially, and RP experience would be overall improved, if some form of change as mentioned above were implemented. My character and I personally have very long-term development opportunities that would rely heavily on having a decent base of operations--and I'm not talking terrorist activities.

Thank you for your time.

 

[Neonity]

Physically add more base locations to the map, or at the very least, 'secret' hidey holes that can be fled to during sweeps. The problem with this solution, after extensive discussion with @@Atle , is that the map is already, literally, at the absolute limits of complexity and size within the Source Engine and the Hammer editor. This makes this solution, unfortunately, infeasible.

This was already implemented in c24_v4. There's WAY more places to hide, and the slums is massive now. Sure, there still aren't as many bases, but this is slightly caused by some bases being owned by only one person and not a group. I can look into getting in touch with them and asking about their groups. Bases are meant for groups after all, not individuals.

Reform protected bases and add the policy back in some form. Something akin to CPs not being able to enter bases during sweeps unless they see somebody enter them--or perhaps have been given direct information that people are hiding inside.

NO. We've been through this, and this was a nightmare to work with. The rules were entirely reworked to favour rebels and give them a lot of room to work with, without the fear of a random raid or sweep ruining all sorts of progress they had.

Containers were made hidden by default, and required evidence of use beyond reasonable doubt or a PK request on the individual(s) in question. This made it so rebels could use bases without the risk of them losing all progress in minutes.

All hidden bases were removed and Combine forces are able to enter them by default, albeit without being able to immediately access containers or workbenches, the latter which was also protected under the rule which only allowed them to be destroyed if there was evidence of them being used.

This will make resistance characters actually able to set up an established base and give themselves a real foothold to work out of.

No, it proved the absolute opposite. Rebels resorted to killing everyone that even saw their base out of fear of them being a snitch because CPs jumped on the opportunity to sweep and ruin months of progress.

Right now, through a combination of strict PK policies and zero security in our development, RP on my character has, personally, become purely stressful and no longer fun whatsoever.

The staff team is already internally reworking the PK criteria to be more lenient towards people who get caught up in a sweep without actually causing the sweep, among other things. This makes NLRs way more frequent and makes it so you can't get PKed randomly out of the blue for something you weren't involved in.

The base changes have been bad for people on BOL, yes. But miles better for the 99.9% of players not on BOL. After all, if you're on BOL, it's because you fucked up at some point. We won't cater to the 0.01% that messed up and got marked. That only proved detrimental to the massive portion of the community that's not BOL.

 

[ActuallyRakaesa]

This was already implemented in c24_v4. There's WAY more places to hide, and the slums is massive now. Sure, there still aren't as many bases, but this is slightly caused by some bases being owned by only one person and not a group. I can look into getting in touch with them and asking about their groups. Bases are meant for groups after all, not individuals.

Beyond tiny apartments in the slums, there really aren't that many base locations. The existing bases are extremely cramped and give you little to no room to work with. I know of like, two vent-blocked bases that I would consider actually 'secure' in any manner, and they're indeed taken and seemingly inactive. Getting in touch with the people who own them would be a good start. Also, I wouldn't call the slums massive at all, they're much bigger on other maps. I can walk from one end of the slums to the other in 10 seconds flat. There's the apartment's, Cole's, and Little Italy. That's it.

NO. We've been through this, and this was a nightmare to work with. The rules were entirely reworked to favour rebels and give them a lot of room to work with, without the fear of a random raid or sweep ruining all sorts of progress they had.

Containers were made hidden by default, and required evidence of use beyond reasonable doubt or a PK request on the individual(s) in question. This made it so rebels could use bases without the risk of them losing all progress in minutes.

All hidden bases were removed and Combine forces are able to enter them by default, albeit without being able to immediately access containers or workbenches, the latter which was also protected under the rule which only allowed them to be destroyed if there was evidence of them being used.

The problem with this idea is that the supplies in our containers and our material wealth means nothing if we die. It's not just our shit that needs security, it's the characters that all that progress has been put into.

No, it proved the absolute opposite. Rebels resorted to killing everyone that even saw their base out of fear of them being a snitch because CPs jumped on the opportunity to sweep and ruin months of progress.

This sounds like something individual people or groups should have received some form of punishment for rather than changing the rules because of a few bad apples. Also, if PK policies were loosened, this wouldn't be an issue. I don't like it, but it wouldn't be as much of an issue.

The staff team is already internally reworking the PK criteria to be more lenient towards people who get caught up in a sweep without actually causing the sweep, among other things. This makes NLRs way more frequent and makes it so you can't get PKed randomly out of the blue for something you weren't involved in.

Atle mentioned this to me and I think it's a good start.

The base changes have been bad for people on BOL, yes. But miles better for the 99.9% of players not on BOL. After all, if you're on BOL, it's because you fucked up at some point. We won't cater to the 0.01% that messed up and got marked. That only proved detrimental to the massive portion of the community that's not BOL.

Some people become BOL without committing a single actual crime or act of violence towards a CP. Just running away from a CP gets you marked as BOL and then you can be PK'd, which I feel like doesn't need to be explained why it's absurd. And my point isn't that things should favor BOL's or 'cater' to them, but that a balance should be struck. You should strive to have the best experience for all the players on your server, assuming they're not breaking rules.

EDIT: I have zero idea how to properly multiquote so just going to @Neonity so you know I replied

 

[Cocohop]

I'm also BOL. I *can* say that my experience on that character has been worse than usual although I *did* roll with the punches best I can. I can't reasonably hang out in the slums with the risk of shadow sweeps looming overhead, but to be honest I wish there was *some* advantage or pro to being marked BOL/AC. Even though it *is* a consequence of something *I* did, it would be good to have an alternative form of RP that unlocks.

 

[RedHotGinger]

During the time I suffered as management I can say with 100% confidence, hidden bases were not only the worst thing introduced to Willard, but the worst thing to ever have occurred to mankind as a whole.

 

[ActuallyRakaesa]

During the time I suffered as management I can say with 100% confidence, hidden bases were not only the worst thing introduced to Willard, but the worst thing to ever have occurred to mankind as a whole.

I've been staff on numerous servers in the past and I've seen hidden bases handled well without any issues. I'm not sure why it was such a difficulty on Willard specifically.

 

[Neonity]

Beyond tiny apartments in the slums, there really aren't that many base locations.

True, there's only a few places to properly base in added in v4.

The existing bases are extremely cramped and give you little to no room to work with.

All you need is room for your containers and workbenches, and all bases have room for that.

know of like, two vent-blocked bases that I would consider actually 'secure' in any manner, and they're indeed taken and seemingly inactive.

Knowing who owns those personally, I can confirm they are far from inactive. Their timezone most likely doesn't match, coupled with the fact that they use their bases for just storage and crafting, and are out of them at any other time.

Also, I wouldn't call the slums massive at all, they're much bigger on other maps. I can walk from one end of the slums to the other in 10 seconds flat. There's the apartment's, Cole's, and Little Italy. That's it.

Run C24_V3 in singleplayer and you will know what I'm talking about. V4 is so much more massive, and has tons of entrances and exits into the slums, giving you much room to manoeuvre. You have loads of freedom to do whatever you want outside the bases.

The problem with this idea is that the supplies in our containers and our material wealth means nothing if we die. It's not just our shit that needs security, it's the characters that all that progress has been put into.

Literally all I can say to this is to simply not wear your gear around for no reason unless you're BOL in which case it doesn't really matter. Even then, odds are you won't be randomly searched in the slums even if they do come across you (if they don't recognize you). Simply wear your rebel gear only if you need to, it's really not that hard yet I see countless people dressed up like they're part of al qaeda when they're going to collect leeches for food. That's entirely on you.

This sounds like something individual people or groups should have received some form of punishment for rather than changing the rules because of a few bad apples. Also, if PK policies were loosened, this wouldn't be an issue. I don't like it, but it wouldn't be as much of an issue.

IC issue entirely, though I can safely say hidden bases are terrible and everyone in staff and people who have played on Willard when they were around is glad to have them gone. And yes, loosened PK policies are coming but they still won't prevent you from dying because you were lazy or reckless.

Some people become BOL without committing a single actual crime or act of violence towards a CP.

PK Policy dictates nobody (including Combine Forces) can PK your character if you did not actually do the action you were accused of.

BOL stands for Be-On-Lookout, it's a mark on your character to have them brought in for interrogation for suspicion, or for other mundane things such as returning work-related items because they were fired or otherwise. I will also mention getting marked as BOL in itself is extremely dificult and very easy to prevent, by simply wearing a mask. If you're BOL it's on you, and there's still ways to get it removed or play around it.

Yes, you are limited once your character is marked BOL, but we won't cater to that tiny percentage of unlucky players.

Just running away from a CP gets you marked as BOL and then you can be PK'd, which I feel like doesn't need to be explained why it's absurd.

... I think you forgot the universe we're in. No comment.

You should strive to have the best experience for all the players on your server, assuming they're not breaking rules.

Frankly, this is impossible. BOL/AC players still have plenty of RP opportunities for them in the slums or sewers, and the map is large enough to easily evade any sweep with minimal effort. If you do have suggestions to improve gameplay for BOL/AC players, you're free to make a suggestion for that.

I can't reasonably hang out in the slums with the risk of shadow sweeps looming overhead

Those don't happen anymore. Haven't been in months.

I wish there was *some* advantage or pro to being marked BOL/AC. Even though it *is* a consequence of something *I* did, it would be good to have an alternative form of RP that unlocks.

I can think of one thing, but this up to player/staff BMDs in the end, which is giving some sort of discount for BMD prices for BOL/AC individuals, but this is an IC issue.

Another thing I can mention which WILL happen, is BOL/AC individuals being given positive reputation to several bandit groups on Expeditions, should they do them.

During the time I suffered as management, I can say with 100% confidence, hidden bases were not only the worst thing introduced to Willard, but the worst thing to ever have occurred to mankind as a whole.

True.

 

[ActuallyRakaesa]

All you need is room for your containers and workbenches, and all bases have room for that.

I need more room for this for what I have in mind, which I've discussed at lengths with Atle, but I wont go into detail here to avoid meta about long-term plans. Also, other than my own needs, I wouldn't consider something a 'base' just because it can fit a workbench and some storage lockers. That's more like a shed.

Knowing who owns those personally, I can confirm they are far from inactive. Their timezone most likely doesn't match, coupled with the fact that they use their bases for just storage and crafting, and are out of them at any other time.

This makes it essentially impossible for anybody with plans beyond storage and crafting to get a base.

Run C24_V3 in singleplayer and you will know what I'm talking about. V4 is so much more massive, and has tons of entrances and exits into the slums, giving you much room to manoeuvre. You have loads of freedom to do whatever you want outside the bases.

V4 being massive relative to V3 doesn't mean it's actually massive, that just means it was tiny in V3.

Literally all I can say to this is to simply not wear your gear around for no reason

I don't.

Even then, odds are you won't be randomly searched in the slums even if they do come across you

I can state with full certainty that this is objectively false. I have been randomly searched during every single sweep that has occurred. They will sweep any person they come across without any reason. This is what lead to the character Juno's recent PK and PK Appeal.

PK Policy dictates nobody (including Combine Forces) can PK your character if you did not actually do the action you were accused of.

When the action is 'you ran' I don't think a PK is valid whether you did it or not.

I will also mention getting marked as BOL in itself is extremely dificult and very easy to prevent, by simply wearing a mask. If you're BOL it's on you, and there's still ways to get it removed or play around it.

Again, not difficult at all, literally running from a CP will get you marked as BOL, and I've been informed that it's irreversible.

... I think you forgot the universe we're in. No comment.

I'm fully aware of the universe we're in. I don't think we ever see a citizen get marked as an anticitizen for simply running in lore. Either way, being extremely hardcore for the sake of immersion instead of having some flexibility to make sure everyone's having a good time is, frankly, nothing short of silly. Quality of RP and enjoyment should come before anything else.

Frankly, this is impossible. BOL/AC players still have plenty of RP opportunities for them in the slums or sewers, and the map is large enough to easily evade any sweep with minimal effort. If you do have suggestions to improve gameplay for BOL/AC players, you're free to make a suggestion for that.

This post is one of those suggestions. Also, I have no idea what you're talking about when you say evading sweeps requires minimal effort. I don't think this is true whatsoever from personal experience. It's harrowing at best.

Those don't happen anymore. Haven't been in months.

I'm 99% certain that they are and Atle mentioned them to me as well. I've seen numerous seemingly unprovoked sweeps recently. There's several a day.

EDIT: One more thing I can say about being stuck in the sewers as a BOL is that there's no spots in the sewers that don't have spores which means we're permanently slowly suffocating to death, and we can't safely stay topside long enough to let the toxins tick down.

 

[Neonity]

I need more room for this for what I have in mind, which I've discussed at lengths with Atle, but I wont go into detail here to avoid meta about long-term plans. Also, other than my own needs, I wouldn't consider something a 'base' just because it can fit a workbench and some storage lockers. That's more like a shed.

Pretty much all base spots have enough room to plan like that. Maybe a few edge cases don't. The biggest rebel attacks were planned in one of those ''tiny'' apartments.

This makes it essentially impossible for anybody with plans beyond storage and crafting to get a base.

Such is the nature of a shared map, not everyone will have a spot unless they join a group. Can confirm the groups in questions have roughly 8 members each.

V4 being massive relative to V3 doesn't mean it's actually massive, that just means it was tiny in V3.

It is still large and flexible enough to give you enough room to do whatever you want. Keep in mind you don't NEED to do everything inside a base, and this is intended. Sitting inside a base all day creates a bad circlejerk. We've had an incident during v3 times where 10/30 people online on the server were sitting in a meta-protected rebel base, isolated from any sort of RP. That's why the bunker was closed down on v3.

I can state with full certainty that this is objectively false. I have been randomly searched during every single sweep that has occurred. They will sweep any person they come across without any reason. This is what lead to the character Juno's recent PK and PK Appeal.

Should correct myself and mention I meant it more as being identified as BOL, as most CPs do not actually look at the CIDs of people they search, judging from experience in the faction.

When the action is 'you ran' I don't think a PK is valid whether you did it or not.

Don't run...? If you're running, you are evading, and you have something to hide. Resisting arrest is a crime

Again, not difficult at all, literally running from a CP will get you marked as BOL, and I've been informed that it's irreversible.

Don't run...? If you're running, you are evading, and you have something to hide.

I don't think we ever see a citizen get marked as an anticitizen for simply running in lore.

You see them all forced to wear bluesuits, they're banned from talking to each other on the streets, and the entire apartment block gets killed if even one anti-citizen gets spotted in them. Bad argument.

I've seen numerous seemingly unprovoked sweeps recently. There's several a day.

All sweeps are logged and I can confirm with 100% certainty that NONE of them were shadow sweeps.

Also, I have no idea what you're talking about when you say evading sweeps requires minimal effort. I don't think this is true whatsoever from personal experience. It's harrowing at best.

See a sweep coming, run into the sewers or just stay on top of the slums. I've "evaded" several sweeps myself by simply sitting on a bench on a higher floor of the slums. That's how simple it was.

One more thing I can say about being stuck in the sewers as a BOL is that there's no spots in the sewers that don't have spores which means we're permanently slowly suffocating to death, and we can't safely stay topside long enough to let the toxins tick down.

In every iteration of Willard, we've tried spots in the sewers with no gas in them. Trust me. They all resulted in the same thing, becoming the only place rebels sit in, again and again. The sewers aren't intended to base in, they're intended to be a high-risk, high-reward resource farm filled with dangerous enemies. Though with that being said, filters give you a VERY long time to stay in the gas.

 

[ActuallyRakaesa]

Don't run...? If you're running, you are evading, and you have something to hide. Resisting arrest is a crime

The thing you have to hide could literally just be some chips and junk in your inventory for all the CPs know. This is the first server I've played on where just running gets you marked as an anticitizen. It usually takes a fair bit more than that.

You see them all forced to wear bluesuits, they're banned from talking to each other on the streets, and the entire apartment block gets killed if even one anti-citizen gets spotted in them. Bad argument.

This actually enforces my argument, because on the server we don't kill the entire apartment block when an anticitizen is found, which is an instance of being flexible for the sake of people's enjoyment instead of strictly adhering to what you think would happen in the game universe.

See a sweep coming, run into the sewers or just stay on top of the slums. I've "evaded" several sweeps myself by simply sitting on a bench on a higher floor of the slums. That's how simple it was.

Sewer sweeps happen. They followed me into the sewers two days ago. I don't know why you think this is a valid strategy or remotely safe.

In every iteration of Willard, we've tried spots in the sewers with no gas in them. Trust me. They all resulted in the same thing, becoming the only place rebels sit in, again and again. The sewers aren't intended to base in, they're intended to be a high-risk, high-reward resource farm filled with dangerous enemies. Though with that being said, filters give you a VERY long time to stay in the gas.

So make the no-gas areas not a spot that can have a base made out of them. No doors. Alternatively, make a rule that people can't stay in that area solely for socializing or 'hanging out' if they aren't waiting for toxins to go down. Or just drop a shit ton of zombies on them if they do. A similar rule could be made for hanging out in bases. It seems like you guys took a machete to the problem instead of a scalpel.

 

[Maroon]

If it helps any, cop leads are actively discussing dropping the charges for evasion so people don't immediately get shot/BOL'd if they run away from Civil Protection, unless there's already the fact that they were about to be hit with a high charge. Pair that with the on-going PK rule changes, I think that should offer some leeway to cops and rebels both and promote more conflict without having one side lose all the things they've worked for.

I'm also going to add my thought about hidden bases: I have no intention of regulating that absolute nightmare of a policy ever again. The amount of headaches and drama the hidden bases caused in the past is absolutely out of proportion. The cons will always outweigh the pros, and I am very glad we've chosen to get rid of those while we could.

 

[ActuallyRakaesa]

If it helps any, cop leads are actively discussing dropping the charges for evasion so people don't immediately get shot/BOL'd if they run away from Civil Protection, unless there's already the fact that they were about to be hit with a high charge. Pair that with the on-going PK rule changes, I think that should offer some leeway to cops and rebels both and promote more conflict without having one side lose all the things they've worked for.

I'm also going to add my thought about hidden bases: I have no intention of regulating that absolute nightmare of a policy ever again. The amount of headaches and drama the hidden bases caused in the past is absolutely out of proportion. The cons will always outweigh the pros, and I am very glad we've chosen to get rid of those while we could.

I think this would be a very fair change for BOL rules. Evasion should definitely have a little interrogation and some form of punishment (maybe even temporary detainment for a day or w/e), but I think it's a bit much to make someone BOL just for running. So I'm glad to hear that. I fully agree with what you said about promoting leeway to cops and rebels--that's exactly what I think the environment for hl2rp should be like. Leeway for some action without the most dire consequences every time. Happy to see a staff member sharing the view.

As for the hidden bases, yeah, I understand. As I mentioned above, I've seen it handled fully well on past servers and I'm not sure why it's been such a difficulty on Willard, but I totally understand the staff's view due to past troubles.

 

[𝔄𝔪𝔟𝔢𝔯𝔮]

Simply:

Dont sweep for the 498th time that day because someone was seen with their gear out for the 498th time that day, because then it doesnt matter where you are in the rebel zones, its as dangerous as in the sewers due to the no hidden bases rule.

Dont PK people found in their bases with their gear on, if they dont have containers or another actual storage space issue/they werent the cause of the sweep.

Dont put people on a combine kill list if they run away or are found with minimally too sussy items on, just put them through a rehabilitation prison thingy dingle.

 

[𝔄𝔪𝔟𝔢𝔯𝔮]

^ The first one especially to show how City 24 'is falling to the rebels oh sweet mother of breen' that has been stirred up for us all to read by the management and thing.

 

[ActuallyRakaesa]

Simply:

Dont sweep for the 498th time that day because someone was seen with their gear out for the 498th time that day, because then it doesnt matter where you are in the rebel zones, its as dangerous as in the sewers due to the no hidden bases rule.

Dont PK people found in their bases with their gear on, if they dont have containers or another actual storage space issue/they werent the cause of the sweep.

Dont put people on a combine kill list if they run away or are found with minimally too sussy items on, just put them through a rehabilitation prison thingy dingle.

Yeah, I like these suggestions. +1.