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The Great Rebel Economy Rework

Belgg said:
Grenades are harder to make than an ak IRL. Making a grenade that is reliable and doesn't just explode instantly is hard. Making an ak is just litteraly sticking shit together, and if you don't have all that's required you can litteraly print it yourself or make it out of pipes and shit.
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Careful with saying an AK is 'literally just throwing shit together'. Even this wonderful guy used a barrel kit for some parts: And you need to know what you are doing. And no you can't just magically print some of those parts - they are pressure bearing and would explode on you if you ran rifle ammunition through a printer part.

Either way, this really goes further down into the specifics than I am going to bother with in here. In the end gameplay wins over realism here. And I don't even know yet what the numbers will be so why argue over them? My point is the system needs to change, and I'm getting feedback on the changes I intend to do to see if they go in the right direction and tackle all of the issue people are seeing.
 
Asimo1234 said:
Makarov 9 damage 4 shots per ap.
Ok let's say you never score a critical hit (The only system armor pen ties into)
4.5 (Rounded to 5) damage per hit. 5 x 8 per turn. Times 6 people. 240 damage total.

M4 21 damage 4 shots per ap
Let's say you only score critical hits.
21 x 8 = 168 damage total.

I'd much rather have 6 people doing 240 damage per turn AT WORST with a total health pool of 600 than a rebel with an m4 doing 170 damage a turn AT BEST who only has 200 health (100 hp + 100 armor).

And before you try saying this is now how the system works:
I have been testing this godforsaken combat system for the past 11 months on actual players. This IS how it works.
Any oddities during actual combat in the server is the result of severe skill issue not being able to hit the chest or head of someone.
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it's not that simple
 
Gr4Ss said:
Careful with saying an AK is 'literally just throwing shit together'. Even this wonderful guy used a barrel kit for some parts: And you need to know what you are doing. And no you can't just magically print some of those parts - they are pressure bearing and would explode on you if you ran rifle ammunition through a printer part.

Either way, this really goes further down into the specifics than I am going to bother with in here. In the end gameplay wins over realism here. And I don't even know yet what the numbers will be so why argue over them? My point is the system needs to change, and I'm getting feedback on the changes I intend to do to see if they go in the right direction and tackle all of the issue people are seeing.
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Barrels can be bought, as i said, i never suggested printing one. You can print 70% of it tho.
 
Gr4Ss said:
Careful with saying an AK is 'literally just throwing shit together'. Even this wonderful guy used a barrel kit for some parts: And you need to know what you are doing. And no you can't just magically print some of those parts - they are pressure bearing and would explode on you if you ran rifle ammunition through a printer part.

Either way, this really goes further down into the specifics than I am going to bother with in here. In the end gameplay wins over realism here. And I don't even know yet what the numbers will be so why argue over them? My point is the system needs to change, and I'm getting feedback on the changes I intend to do to see if they go in the right direction and tackle all of the issue people are seeing.
Click to expand...

funny how the post is litterally called "build your own ak from a shovel" lmao
 
Asimo1234 said:
Makarov 9 damage 4 shots per ap.
Ok let's say you never score a critical hit (The only system armor pen ties into)
4.5 (Rounded to 5) damage per hit. 5 x 8 per turn. Times 6 people. 240 damage total.

M4 21 damage 4 shots per ap
Let's say you only score critical hits.
21 x 8 = 168 damage total.

I'd much rather have 6 people doing 240 damage per turn AT WORST with a total health pool of 600 than a rebel with an m4 doing 170 damage a turn AT BEST who only has 200 health (100 hp + 100 armor).

And before you try saying this is now how the system works:
I have been testing this godforsaken combat system for the past 11 months on actual players. This IS how it works.
Any oddities during actual combat in the server is the result of severe skill issue not being able to hit the chest or head of someone.
Click to expand...
Oh you talking about TBC, yeah I usually only talk about S2K because TBC is low-scale fights and don't actually happen in SS or events but also you are talking about a 1V6 with no cover whatsoever. In TBC, whoever get the corner or the numerical advantage will almost always win but in S2K it's a total different thing which usually is a question of equipment and who's got the gun with the highest dmg and firerate.
 
TheMouths said:
Oh you talking about TBC, yeah I usually only talk about S2K because TBC is low-scale fights and don't actually happen in SS or events but also you are talking about a 1V6 with no cover whatsoever. In TBC, whoever get the corner or the numerical advantage will almost always win but in S2K it's a total different thing which usually is a question of equipment and who's got the gun with the highest dmg and firerate.
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The situation he provided is also not one that typically happens because each and every rebel has at least a vest of some kind, and typically more powerful weapons.
 
Belgg said:
Barrels can be bought, as i said, i never suggested printing one. You can print 70% of it tho.
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its not just the barrel that you need to worry about and idk what you mean when you say you can print 70% of it, the handguard and maybe even the stock yeah but thats prolly about it cuz personally I wouldnt trust plastic/poly with my life
 
Belgg said:
it's not that simple
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I'm going fucking insane

TheMouths said:
Oh you talking about TBC, yeah I usually only talk about S2K because TBC is low-scale fights and don't actually happen in SS or events but also you are talking about a 1V6 with no cover whatsoever. In TBC, whoever get the corner or the numerical advantage will almost always win but in S2K it's a total different thing which usually is a question of equipment and who's got the gun with the highest dmg and firerate.
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My numbers game checks out, but yeah once S2K start it becomes an issue of skill rather than numbers which is more a TBC thing. Though if the S2K fight has neutral positioning my money would be on the makarov people (You can't kill them all before having to reload zerg rush tactics))
 
Ruairidh said:
its not just the barrel that you need to worry about and idk what you mean when you say you can print 70% of it, the handguard and maybe even the stock yeah but thats prolly about it cuz personally I wouldnt trust plastic/poly with my life
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Well there is a bunch of tutorials on how to print your own rifles, even a fucking game. I'm not doing a tutorial for you since that would be ilegal in my country, but if you know what you are doing (wich you can know by litteraly watching some tutorials and reading a bit), you can print 70% of the gun. I would also link you stuff to search it by yourself, but again, that would be ilegal :) just search on google.
 
Belgg said:
Well there is a bunch of tutorials on how to print your own rifles, even a fucking game. I'm not doing a tutorial for you since that would be ilegal in my country, but if you know what you are doing (wich you can know by litteraly watching some tutorials and reading a bit), you can print 70% of the gun. I would also link you stuff to search it by yourself, but again, that would be ilegal :) just search on google.
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I understand it can be done but firstly, how do you have access to this knowledge IC, secondly what access do you have to a 3D printer and how will you make one? And lastly you need to make more than just the barrel, you need to make the reciever out of metal (most of it at least) the barrel too and even after all of that you still need to get all the dimensions right and you need to have some firearm know how. Its easier said than done to say the least
 
Ruairidh said:
have access to this knowledge IC,
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LMAO I NEVER SAID TO FUCKING 3D PRINT YOU GUN IC ARE YOU DUMB?

i said you can do that irl therfore a fucking rebel that's fucking capable of making a combine lock breacher IS FUCKING ABLE OF MAKING AN AK.

My main argument was that if you know how to make a grenade you know how to make a kalashnikov. So don't put words in my mouth that i didn't say.

Still if you think a grenade is easier, what about a fucking uzi? Like if you know how to make an uzi you DEFINITELY know how to make an ak.
 
Belgg said:
Grenades are harder to make than an ak IRL. Making a grenade that is reliable and doesn't just explode instantly is hard. Making an ak is just litteraly sticking shit together, and if you don't have all that's required you can litteraly print it yourself or make it out of pipes and shit.
Click to expand...
This was my first argument. So please don't just make up arguments couse you don't know what to say. THIS is what i said. I never said to fucking 3d print your gun ic, like are we crazy?
 
Belgg said:
This was my first argument. So please don't just make up arguments couse you don't know what to say. THIS is what i said. I never said to fucking 3d print your gun ic, like are we crazy?
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Making up arguments?? Brody why waffle about printing?? IF that wasnt an arguement you were making then why keep bringing it up
Belgg said:
what about a fucking uzi?
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An UZI doesnt shoot 7.62x39, it shoots a way smaller slower and safer bullet, you have more give as there is less a chance of your gun exploading and breaking, an uzi is also way less complex, it doesnt need a gas system, its open bolt and its as mentioned above alot safer a bullet, the dimensions also arent to crazy to fix up as 9mm is commonly used by CPs meaning spent casings would be plentiful, making it easier to have an accurate mould and have a rough idea of diamaters of the barrel. you are comparing 2 very different firearms that share very different purposes.
 
Gr4Ss said:
So, I know there are a whole slew of problems with the rebel economy rework and I want to redo the whole thing. But first I do want to touch base and get some opinions in. So... time for the shitstorm, I guess.

To begin, some of the problems I personally have noted as being a thing. I find it important to begin with listing these up, as we can refer back to them when making decisions on how stuff should work. This is the shit we want to fix in the end.

  1. Progression is an absolute mess.
    1. No real system to it, things just unlock at near-random levels made up on a whim when they were being punched in.
    2. Not much worth crafting beyond level 40, except a few one-offs at level 50.
    3. Level 30 recipe-wise is somewhat considered mid-game while most crafting rebels start off with 20 levels on character creation already (attributes + starting points).
    4. Boosts can quickly grant a lot of levels to just jump up in progression, making starting rebels able to go near level 30 roughly 2 hours after character creation.
    5. The crafting stations are publicly available in the slums, making them no barrier at all to progression. Anyone has access to a metal bench.
  2. Component cost increases as you go up the levels, but there is no better way to get the base resources to compensate. Making anything at a high level is an absolute grind.
    1. We should consider making resource income also progress, and locking ‘high level’ things behind more than just cost.
    2. Breakdown recipes stay the same, giving only the lowest level scrap resources.
    3. Trash spawners do not really scale with level. They provide a lot for low level players (at least once you have a toolkit to be able to break everything down), but too little for high level players.
    4. Breakdown results aren’t really balanced with item needs. Usually this means too much plastic, glass and electronics. Wood isn’t gained a lot, but also not used a lot. Cloth can be scarce at a certain point in progression (bags, armor, filters).
  3. As everything must constantly be crafted from scrap resources, making anything high tier involves lots of clicking and waiting and clicking and waiting.
  4. Only a few items are worth crafting at level 50, for the rest it is better to not waste your money and buy stuff from BMD’s instead.
    1. Armor: everyone just goes straight for T2 armor, if not T3
    2. Guns: the best gun on crafting is weak compared to what you can get from a BMD, and few people bother unless they run solo.
  5. Medicine as a skill is mostly not required for anything unless you really want to get into drugs. The important stuff is all available at low levels that are easy enough to boost (as intelligence is shared with crafting, chances are this is being boosted already anyway).
  6. ‘Chip loops’ via smuggling are causing giant amounts of inflation, but with the way BMD’s are set up are 100% required to get anything real.
    1. None of the good stuff is on crafting, it must be gotten via a BMD
    2. In the past week alone, 12000+ adhesive were sold via smuggling, creating a net profit of 100k+ chips going into circulation.
    3. Prices are set based on rebels doing this, making it near impossible for rebels who do not abuse this exploit (or who do not know about it) from getting any real gear.
  7. Smuggling really is only useful for the chip loops and to dump excess components, because people buy all the good stuff from BMD’s and rarely need any high level from the smuggler.

In case anyone has anything substantial to add to the above list, feel free to post it. But otherwise, I rather not have endless circles of discussions about what really is wrong and what is just a symptom, bla bla bla. We are here to talk solutions.

I have thought about some things I'd like to implement to address the above, but really it comes down to reworking the whole crating, smuggling and trash system from the ground up again. I believe we can make something better now as we got a better idea of what's up - most recipes date back from pre-server launch before the skill system had fully solidified.

  1. New crafting progression set based on workbenches
    1. Allow public workbenches to be freely destroyed/taken with RP
      1. A good part of the cost of some end-game stuff would be from getting the crafting bench. People should WANT to keep them safe.
    2. Progression per level:
      1. 0-15: no bench
      2. 15-25: toolkit
      3. 25-35: crafting bench
      4. 35-45: metal bench
      5. 45-50: machining bench
    3. ‘Side-benches’
      1. Ammo bench for all ammo/grenades
      2. Tinker bench for all electronics
      3. Medicine to get reinforced progression
        1. Mixed (all up to refined chemicals)
        2. Chemistry Bench
    4. High level crafting (as in level 50) to get more useful stuff that currently can only be acquired from BMD's. Crafting shouldn't be fully subpar to BMD's, it should be equal if you put in the effort (at least for high tier stuff, leaving the very high tier things BMD only).
  2. Metallurgy
    1. Metal is used in the vast majority of the recipes, thus making metallurgy core to crafting. It makes sense to also base progression around it, and avoid it taking thousands of clicks to get anything done. Some of our currently most expensive recipes take 300+ bits of scrap metal if crafted from start to finish.
    2. Rework current metal progression
      1. Scrap metal
      2. Wrought Iron
      3. Steel
    3. Furnace can do ‘in bulk’ smelting of multiple pieces of metal
      1. Up to a stack of ingredients at one time
      2. Coal cost is per entire stack to encourage bulk processing
      3. Recipes:
        1. 8 scrap + x coal = 4 wrought iron
        2. 4 wrought iron + y coal = 2 steel
  3. Other fields
    1. Plastic: important up to and including crafting bench, after that there should be a big shift to metal for everything. Potentially shift it away from needing adhesive in favor of chemicals to add some more value to the higher tier plastic - turn it into somewhat of another 'side progression'.
    2. Wood: to become more important as a source of charcoal, need to maybe make it slightly easier to find
    3. Cloth: potentially add some ruined clothes to the junk mix to add extra sources of cloth (or even replace all the cardboard giving cloth at the moment)
    4. Electronics: shifted more to end-game, early game more of a source of chips
      1. Possibly to also add material tiers in here: ‘scrap electronics’, ‘electrical components’, ‘military-grade electronics’ and add recipes to uptier electronics.
      2. Potentially include copper wire as an extra ingredient
    5. Adhesive: see where it makes sense to remove this and either leave it out all-together or substitute it with other things that are less of a pain to get.
    6. Medicine
      1. Giving the chemical progression a slight redo as well
      2. Consider adding better/other sources for alcohol (distillation from food ingredients?).
      3. Batteries provide enough early-game unrefined chemicals, but late-game might also need a rework
  4. Disassembly recipes for scrap
    1. Allow some scrap to be disassembled, returning more/higher grade components, at the cost of needing high tier workbenches and/or high crafting levels
    2. Perhaps rework the entire trash system to take skill levels into account, providing more value for the higher tier rebels.
  5. Automatically set smuggling prices based on a handful of ‘base ingredients’ and their crafting recipes.
    1. We could avoid introducing ‘chip loops’ like this, and potentially restrict them to only high tier crafting/smuggling, longer production chains, or something focused on groups rather than something you do on your own with just a mixer.
    2. Prices become easier to adjust on the fly, as we'd reduce the potentially 200+ individual price points down to mostly ~10-15 main items and a bunch of items only used in a single crafting recipe (mainly for drugs and some other very niche stuff).
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Could someone condense the solutions in one paragraph with less than 6 sentences about how this will fix rebel gameplay.

Thanks in advance.
 
Ruairidh said:
We dont hate you pretty sure its just like you know us saying no
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You think there shouldn't be a TLDR? It would be very helpful for the mild readers who aren't much of hl2rp philosophers. It's not fair implementing something that only a minority can understand.
 
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