Reform to Snitching and CP investigation systems.

[VelmaDingus]

Okay, so, I recently got PK'd. No evidence was provided for me to refute. I was asked if I did anything, and I said "no". A negative claim. The burden of proof is on the accuser to provide evidence to prove what they're saying. Proving a negative claim is impossible. If I asked you, the reader, to prove that you do not kill babies, you could not, because you do not have an alibi for every second your life. The burden is on me, for making the possible claim that you do.

This is the second time I got PK'd (last time, appealed, due to pretty much no actual IC evidence, which is what will likely happen this time again) and it's extremely common from what I've seen. If you're accused of something, CPs currently ask you to prove a negative claim (a literal impossible feat, it's not possible to have a 24/7 alibi, fictitious or real!) and if you can't they PK you.

It's fine if you want to provide some evidence or snitch, to get out alive or go to OCR, but if they have nothing on you, they PK you and then you have to appeal.

This system is extremely fucking taxing and I'm very annoyed to have to go through it again. Both times, the snitchers had nothing concrete on me, but if they did, I'd like to be able to avoid a PK by forcing the CPs themselves to actually find evidence, which wouldn't be hard, given they now highly suspect me.

Additionally, any snitch can say anything to Civil Protection, and it will start this chain of events. A freshly made character can minge or meta game, and CPs will take it IC, BOL the person in question, and then amputate them if they have nothing to say. This is appealable, of course, but it leads to your character being out of action for a long time, and puts all the burden onto the person to defend themselves.

Instead, I suggest a return to the PK auth (rather than PK appeal) system, but SOLELY for CP amputations/BOLs based on eye witness testimony. In future, if a snitch comes to CPs, the faction needs to make a case file, digest it, and come up with solid charges that are provable for it; from them they can pursue an interrogation, but it cannot end in a PK unless they have solid evidence!

I get the Civil Protection are not judges, they will (in universe) kill people for very little. But that makes for a really boring story and roleplaying experience. Put some burden of proof on them. Do *not* just PK someone because this 4hr old character said "Hey, they're a webul.".

Last time, I was charged with a weapons charge, despite them never finding a weapon on me, seeing me with one, or finding a weapon at all, let alone one they believed to be mine. That was appealed. This one will be appealed too, because there's no evidence again.

I was called on my conduct for delaying RP and talking in LOOC, but I was just trying to get the CPs to tell me, OOCly, what my charge was. Killing someone for literally no reason is extremely frustrating.

Having a heavier burden of proof on crimes is extremely important. Hearsay and eye witnesses should be suspicious and cause CPs to start looking for evidence. It might even give the IAT something to do. Until then, people will keep getting PK'd for nothing, have to to appeal.

This really stifles Rebel RP; at the CWU or the DOB or Civil Protection, you need auths to really fuck with the organization. For rebel groups, they can be wiped out by a single minge and the apathy that follows - I was genuinely considering not even making an appeal this time, because of how much fuss it was last time.

Snitching stifles RP, not only by wiping it out, but when I was still alive, I'd have to avoid talking to people - slums RP was actively hindered by the fact that I know how bullshit this system is, and how hard appealing it is.

People criticize rebels for sitting in their bases all day; this is why they do it. It takes a gentle breeze to undo everything. Not in a narratively satisfying way, or a co-operative, mutually satisfactory roleplay scenario. Just one dude running to CPs, bland interrogation RP, and amputation.

That's not RP, that's tedium.

 

[Neonity]

Civil Protection isn't allowed to PK you without conclusive, irrefutable evidence. The fact that they're doing so means there's a problem with the CP side of things, as you shouldn't have been PKed under any normal circumstances, assuming your story left out no crucial details.

A freshly made character can minge or meta game, and CPs will take it IC, BOL the person in question, and then amputate them if they have nothing to say.

No. Civil Protection was directly told to ignore any and all "snitch" reports from brand new characters or those with low social standing. They absolutely shouldn't take action on this.

the faction needs to make a case file, digest it, and come up with solid charges that are provable for it; from them they can pursue an interrogation, but it cannot end in a PK unless they have solid evidence!

This is already the case. In order for Civil Protection to PK someone, they need solid evidence. Read this line from the PK Criteria ( PK Policy ):

Put some burden of proof on them. Do *not* just PK someone because this 4hr old character said "Hey, they're a webul.".

Shouldn't be happening already.

Everything you described here should already be happening and has been for as long as I can remember. The fact that it isn't happening anymore seems to be an internal CP issue with some of the CPs not being acquainted with the rules or they simply forgot about them. I'm sure there was no malicious intent from the CP side of things. Hope this clears things up, if only a little.

 

[Blitz]

Basically everything that Neon said.

I'm part of the primary investigative team and we go to great lengths to follow up on leads and finding evidence in a usually fairly "uncombine" way. Of course, people will put varying degrees of effort into it and every case is different. Some demand more attention than others and at times the dynamics of RP can lead to a less than ideal outcome.

I understand that it's taxing having to create a PK appeal every time if you've been wrongfully killed, but know that we're trying our best to "rightfully" kill people, but the nature of gathering evidence is very far from ideal based on a multitude of factors and unfortunately sometimes we get it wrong - which is where the appeals come into the picture. So that we can get both sides of the story and determine if the CPs are at fault.

 

[Vulpes Callida]

Putting aside the very good amount of truth in this post (I couldn't be further from the 'investigative team' so I can't really provide much in that regard) I do want to bring up something. CPs work in a chain, and a lot of information is lost because of this (it's intentional). You mention the CPs calling you out on stalling OOC, but I know the two who did had nothing to do with your arrest or operation in general: they were given orders as simple as 'arrest X' or 'do Y'. And for them, if they don't do it, it means bad business (Rank leaders were demanding your presence while the argument was going on, and trust me, it wouldn't be the first time someone gets yelled at and shot for not doing things quick enough).

Not defending the whole 'possible meta' CP aspect you hint at in this post (I am aware a lot of CPs have meta'd in the past and that shit should never be allowed), I'll leave that to the staff and such to decide (especially if what you say is true), but sometimes it's as simple as CPs not wanting to get involved in OOC dramas that aren't theirs.

As for the punishments and shit, they absolutely need a rework. Out of the current list, a literal half of them gets you killed 99% of the time, and it's coincidentally the one composed by the most common civilian infractions. I don't like killing chars, and chars should die, but in my opinion there is very little narrative thought behind some of these choices.

 

[M3ntal]

I'm not directly involved with the clinic, but people, as of recent, were only allowed to enter the clinic if they were trusted by another whom Spades trusted. So the vetting process was indeed very scrupulous, I would say.

Hence it surprises me that I go and find that the clinic is not only broken into but it's obvious structural aspects are ignored. This isn't so much related to the catch 22 that is proving your innocence, but moreso related to the lack of roleplay quality.
Back on topic, however, Alex Weaver was apparently also PK'd due to this. On what charges? Apparently a witness saying he was in the clinic. A month ago. The fact that this claim was not even so much as doubted even a little bit makes me believe that there was some OOC foul play involved in this and that all injured parties (Including Chaa'Tii) should be reimbursed either their characters or have the harm their characters suffered reversed.

Seriously, SERIOUSLY disappointed in the lack of roleplay quality displayed in this. The completely circumstantial hearsay evidence, which has happened many times before and was tackled full force without even a hint of skepticism, but also the aforementioned impossibility to prove one's innocence because they ask you to prove a negative answer which you cannot do (to them) without an alibi. You can provide reasons as to why you hadn't done it, but if you don't have a witness, (and sometimes even if you do have a witness) it will be utterly and completely ignored and you will get PK'd regardless.

 

[Deleted member 4096]

Putting aside the very good amount of truth in this post (I couldn't be further from the 'investigative team' so I can't really provide much in that regard) I do want to bring up something. CPs work in a chain, and a lot of information is lost because of this (it's intentional). You mention the CPs calling you out on stalling OOC, but I know the two who did had nothing to do with your arrest or operation in general: they were given orders as simple as 'arrest X' or 'do Y'. And for them, if they don't do it, it means bad business (Rank leaders were demanding your presence while the argument was going on, and trust me, it wouldn't be the first time someone gets yelled at and shot for not doing things quick enough).

Not defending the whole 'possible meta' CP aspect you hint at in this post (I am aware a lot of CPs have meta'd in the past and that shit should never be allowed), I'll leave that to the staff and such to decide (especially if what you say is true), but sometimes it's as simple as CPs not wanting to get involved in OOC dramas that aren't theirs.

As for the punishments and shit, they absolutely need a rework. Out of the current list, a literal half of them gets you killed 99% of the time, and it's coincidentally the one composed by the most common civilian infractions. I don't like killing chars, and chars should die, but in my opinion there is very little narrative thought behind some of these choices.

I think there's something fundamentally hypocritical in what people express themselves and then how most face turn upon the server. I know my perspective comes from a position of inexperience, but I don't see what is narrative is actually created by the demolishing of a passive, anti-civil roleplay hub. One that was expressedly what people were vying for, with how much "Rebels should be doing something / being active." and the result is the subsequent destruction of the hub and following PK'ed system between all - no matter how loosely - affiliated characters, with everyone having their character irreparably changed and progression cordoned off. I say this enough because I think things are being handled in a separate manner; one where PK's might be revised, but the destruction of the clinic still stands, and an RP Hub had been lost.

I know I may sound like a broken clock but I ended up talking about this a week into September with my thread: Willard's system is too punitive and what it ends up doing is causing behavioural adaptions to set in because nobody really wishes to lose their character and start Tabula Rasa. Much of the time it's been expressed; there's been little hearing to the actual ideas flouted both on forums and discord, no matter their suggestion and/or their context. Eventually people reach an 'end of the line' system wherein people just play safer and safer until there's no interaction at all towards players they don't inherently trust on an Out-of-Character basis.

Willard is a grind. And the only alternative to grinding to achieve what you'd want is to effectively postpone obtainment. Which is all well in good on paper -- It's roleplay, of course -- but what true alternative is there otherwise? Everything is gated on the basis of Out-of-Character time spent, with the adage that having a longer character is somehow more 'legitimizing' than having a new one, while with contrast saying that new characters should start with nothing and must go through the repeated, tiring hurdle of having to play on the server and go through rote, clammy encounters to progress their character to join almost every faction. Yet on the other hand that time invested, which is supposedly 'well earned' is given naught in how people's narratives can fall apart with punitive and overreaching outcomes which lead to disrespect to how many hours people have genuinely allocated to their character.

There needs to be actual change. The system built is based around not inherently creating a narrative that's engaging, with antagonism based on two or more characters, but instead a draconian measure where it likens everything to an MMORPG. The word 'Grind' was never apparent in any other roleplay community I've been apart of yet it's ubiquitous here.

I support your belief on that there needs to be an overhaul. Yet I don't think anything is going to be actually done. And Willard's community is going to continuously suffer for it by bleeding prospective players wishing to create or engage in a little bit of antagonism.

 

[Vulpes Callida]

Reply

So much as I rant about rebel inactivity, I rant about this shit too; I have voiced my discontent numerous times with how 'prisoners' and anti civil activity, punishments and reprimands are handled (and many other matters, God knows people are bored of me in the CP discord), but the faction is very hierarchical and although some of us make strides to change it ultimately the decision isn't ours.

There are a lot of people demanding change, but you are right, there is none, and not just about this issue. I'd normally make a longer post but I'd just echo the words you've said (and that we've all preached a million times).

I'll only say this. Narrative, in general, is pathetic and self centered. Everyone's only ever after their own interests and there is no consideration of the players affected by others' actions. This is not something we can write down in the 'punishments' side of the CP guide, or in 'loot rules', or anywhere, sadly, and it is ultimately a matter of mentality.

It's a hard position. I want to call these behaviours out but at the same time I don't want to stir OOC drama because I'm not a guy that gets personal. There's no winning sides. Furthermore I'd add if I were to call them out I'd probably get banned because most of them wager far more """"power"""" (it's a fuckin online videogame) than me.

 

[Goose]

This is a rare situation where protocol was entirely followed. We already don't accept information from blue-suits or really anyone under loyalist tier three, but in this situation guidelines were followed. We had no reason to believe this character was a freshly made-character simply spawned to snitch, the datafile stated the character was made MONTHS ago, and more importantly, they were a clear anti-citizen with access to highly-illegal items, such as CMU and BRI keycards. The only reason this information was acted on was because from any other stand-point besides taking the excorticating detail from an admin-standpoint to check their playtime and logs, they seemed to be a completely normal character who was simply giving information to save their own life, which is something we do act on so long as it seems to be an established character.

However for future incidents, it would be preferable to get logs and what not checked by uninvolved staff. Three characters have essentially been ruined out of this because someone decided to go down burning the ship. I assure you we have proper protocol to ignore the snitch-type throwaway characters, perhaps it just needs to be expanded a bit more. Snitching itself will not entirely be cut though, as we'd remove a key component to allowing civil-protection to actually get information. It just has to be balanced properly.

In this case, you shouldn't have been shot. I don't know entirely why you were shot, it wasn't my decision. I don't agree with it.

 

[VelmaDingus]

Snitching itself will not entirely be cut though, as we'd remove a key component to allowing civil-protection to actually get information. It just has to be balanced properly.

For something like this; an event that leads to orange GM text of a base being destroyed, like 3 PK's, a re-nulling + re-shackling, and all so soon after the actually well roleplayed and interested Alaska event (and well before rewards could be handed out) is insane.

This was a massive, major, and large scale event. Doing a little bit more leg work before hand would have been nice. The metagame team discovered the player had never gone in today. If you had waited for today before going ahead, this could have all been avoided, but now? We have to appeal, void situations, and roll back people's memories, because almost the entire server saw what happened.

In this case, you shouldn't have been shot. I don't know entirely why you were shot, it wasn't my decision. I don't agree with it.

I was under the assumption you were the rank leader ordering it, as referenced by Judge-4 in LOOC. Can you tell me which rank leader was pushing for it, because I'd like to make a complaint. There was no solid evidence against my character, nor Weaver.

 

[Goose]

For something like this; an event that leads to orange GM text of a base being destroyed, like 3 PK's, a re-nulling + re-shackling, and all so soon after the actually well roleplayed and interested Alaska event (and well before rewards could be handed out) is insane.

This was a massive, major, and large scale event. Doing a little bit more leg work before hand would have been nice. The metagame team discovered the player had never gone in today. If you had waited for today before going ahead, this could have all been avoided, but now? We have to appeal, void situations, and roll back people's memories, because almost the entire server saw what happened.


I was under the assumption you were the rank leader ordering it, as referenced by Judge-4 in LOOC. Can you tell me which rank leader was pushing for it, because I'd like to make a complaint. There was no solid evidence against my character, nor Weaver.

Ah I thought you were weaver for a second. I told them to amputate you based off what Leudo said earlier / how he handled Alex. It got voided either-way, as I suspected it would after I started looking to the person a little bit during the interrogations. As I said, I don't agree with how things were handled but ICly I was listening to the mcp inspector.

I'm not sure what was done GM wise, I ordered the incen to be deployed, as we tend to burn down every base we find. I know what they discovered because I assisted in the investigation. Yes, I agree that there should've been more staff-work beforehand, best we can do now is look in hindsight and improve for future situations like this.

 

[vilhjalmrf]

As so many have stated, there's already measures in place to prevent things like the one you were in. What happened to you along with others involved was just a mistake. Staff should've looked deeper to confirm the snitch's claims OOCly via logs in this case. It's a hassle but it is something we do. Mistakes will happen and the appeals are there for you to seek out correcting them.

With that said, not sure what else of use this discussion/suggestion is now but up to the OP if they want to lock it or feel the need to discuss more.

 

[Deleted member 4096]

It should be justified proactively than defended in reaction on player-led investigation / PKs. And not in the immediate scenario; several days or weeks in advance.

 

[VelmaDingus]

TWO NEW SUGGESTIONS​

One: Rebel FactionS Lead(s)​

Don't reform Civil Protection or snitching; reform rebels.

This could be done where each group leader is their own faction lead, or have one faction lead who doesn't have the role ICly, they just act as a faction lead to stop shit like this happening again.

If I want to raid the CWU, or a DOB store or the Nexus or whatever, I need to do /checkcrime. I need auths. I need to talk to the faction lead. I need a GM, I need an admin.

Throughout all of this, I've heard the argument "Um, you can't really expect admins to always be on the vet this stuff, raids on your base will happen" but, the same argument cannot be made about any other faction - you do need admins for that.

Having one big general rebel factions lead, or letting each group leader be their own faction lead, would allow rules to be made. Rules that regulate how snitching, raiding, and how stuff like that works. Every other organized group (factions) get this so I really don't see why rebels don't.

Two: Snitching Auths​

Right now, when someone has a red tier violation, CPs are faced with two options; kill them, or send them to OCR if they snitch. Restructure OCR. They get sent there if they agree to snitch, but they don't snitch yet. Once in OCR, they try to acquire a snitching Auth for whatever info they're trying to get.

These auths would have to establish how the info was gained ICly, motive for snitching, and other things.

If they don't get it, they get brought back to be killed.
======================

Thoughts? Preferences?

 

[VelmaDingus]

As so many have stated, there's already measures in place to prevent things like the on you were. What happened to you along with others involved was just a mistake. Staff should've looked deeper to confirm the snitch's claims OOCly via logs in this case. It's a hassle but it is something we do. Mistakes will happen and the appeals are there for you to seek out correcting them.

With that said, not sure what else of use this discussion/suggestion is now but up to the OP if they want to lock it or feel the need to discuss more.

Respectfully, this is a mistake which has happened twice now, so I would like to continue talking about it, and find a way to strengthen or reform the structures in place, because they didn't work tonight even though many admins were on.

 

[vilhjalmrf]

Respectfully, this is a mistake which has happened twice now, so I would like to continue talking about it, and find a way to strengthen or reform the structures in place, because they didn't work tonight even though many admins were on.

It has happened more than twice to be honest (over the course of Willard existing). In my opinion, there are extra steps we can take but it is entirely up to the leads if they want to push for it or not. So the current rules and guidelines in place are the best we can use as of right now, rely on admins going the extra mile to check for metagame, or even hope that the rebel captured doesn't fuck over his friends (or isn't a metagamer).

Just also gonna add, even with a reform or extra shielding there's always gonna be errors on the admin/player's side and metagamers that'll breach it.

 

[VelmaDingus]

It has happened more than twice to be honest (over the course of Willard existing). In my opinion, there are extra steps we can take but it is entirely up to the leads if they want to push for it or not. So the current rules and guidelines in place are the best we can use as of right now, rely on admins going the extra mile to check for metagame, or even hope that the rebel captured doesn't fuck over his friends (or isn't a metagamer).

Just also gonna add, even with a reform or extra shielding there's always gonna be errors on the admin/player's side and metagamers that'll breach it.

Right, yes, I mean, this is the second time it has happened to me in a month. Which is very impressive, given a week of that was Alaska.

 

[Rabid]

Snitching is common because it is arguably the best and most efficent way to turn the SC you need to get anywhere. That's 90% of the reason it happens. Make the loyalist grind (the genuine grind) less of one and you'll see less snitching.

Of course the other hand you cannot halt something like a raid or whatever to make sure every last box is ticked. You're just asking for information to leak and metagame to happen on the Rebel side. And trust me; it will happen.

 

[VelmaDingus]

Snitching is common because it is arguably the best and most efficent way to turn the SC you need to get anywhere. That's 90% of the reason it happens. Make the loyalist grind (the genuine grind) less of one and you'll see less snitching.

Of course the other hand you cannot halt something like a raid or whatever to make sure every last box is ticked. You're just asking for information to leak and metagame to happen on the Rebel side. And trust me; it will happen.

Actually, in my experience, snitching happens because it's the only way to escape a PK in an interrogation!

Speaking as someone who has eaten TWO PKs about this now.

 

[Deleted member 4096]

There isn't going to be a reduction in grind despite most people whom I've talked to asking/hoping for such, Rabid. Which is a shame.

I think there needs to be a sizeable change to how PKs work. I find it annoying that the onus is on the defendant initially instead of the aggressor.

 

[Rabid]

Actually, in my experience, snitching happens because it's the only way to escape a PK in an interrogation!

Speaking as someone who has eaten TWO PKs about this now.

I was talking about unprompted snitching, but I mean it somewhat makes sense tbh.

As much as it frustrates people, Rebels are already heavily insulated. As a former cop main in years gone (not on WN) its been my general experience that actually getting enough information to make anything stick is incredibly difficult - and it is more difficult on WN than most given there's extra sources that cops are told to ignore.

That's not even touching on the specifics of information gained from interrogations.

I understand the frustration - I've been on your side of the fence too - but it is really difficult to get any antagonism or risk at all if you start chopping out reporting or snitching, because quite frankly rebels don't do much that cops see themselves.