Fixing Resistance RP For Good

[M!NT]

For months I have seen some threads (and discord conversations) cover this in bits and pieces. Most of them are something along the lines of: "I think rebel RP sucks, here's why". Despite all the heated discussion on this topic, I think very few solutions have been offered. So, that is what I will attempt to do in this thread- provide a solution.

However, before I can present a solution, I must illuminate the problem.

Problem Statement
The issue with Rebels can be summed up as a simple cause and effect.

Cause: Gameplay
Rebels currently have a tough life on Willard. Most characters outside the city are busy; hooked into a never ending item grinding loop as pictured below:



I believe this is what causes most of the issues for Rebel players, even if it isn't the direct cause for their frustration. The roots of these issues grow deep, and this gameplay loop is the bedrock of rebel RP currently.

This is because items are important. I cannot just lean back in my chair and say "You do not need items to RP." THAT FIXES NOTHING.
Stop pointing fingers at each other and blaming this as an issue with the playerbase. IT IS NOT THEIR FAULT.

If you don't read anything in this thread, AT LEAST READ THIS:
If you want to get the playerbase to do something, specifically Rebels, you must reward them somehow (scripts and/or development).

Items act as an incentive; a reward for doing something. Players will always gravitate towards the path of least resistance in these cases, which is the core reason why so many players spend countless hours following this soul crushing gameplay loop.

As Madcombat once said, "We are not rewarding players for RPing"

Effect: Lack of Development/Staleness
Rebel characters typically have very little progression. Their progression opportunities are pictured below:



Grinding their characters this way causes them to become stale, because they have everything to lose and nothing to gain.

Solution:
There are long term solutions, and short term solutions. Some things will take months to do, some things we could do in a few weeks if we put the reins in the hands of someone who is capable.

Keep in mind that I am just a dev, so consider this more of a call to action than anything else.

Short term solution:

NOTE: All of this can be done now, and with little code support. It just requires passionate people which are directed effectively. We have plenty of passionate people, but little direction. I think this will be resolved in time.

1. Reduce trash spawners on the map. There would be outrage if you got rid of them entirely. However, with them present, the points below will have little impact.
2. (LFC WAS SUPPOSED TO DO THIS) build a community of refugees out in the slums. Use the items coming from their supply lines to act as supplies for the community. ICly find capable characters and delegate the following tasks to them.
   1. Build a clinic
   2. Clean up the decrepit and abandoned buildings
   3. Set up a kitchen to feed the needy, and the kitchen via supply lines. (more impactful if death from hunger/thirst is turned back on)
   4. Enact a list of rules for the community, and pick characters to see to it that those rules are followed.
3. (LFC WAS SUPPOSED TO DO THIS) offer characters a story line to follow. Rebel groups can team up to go out on small events which accomplish some sort of goal for the community. These events might be risky, so the rewards should be plentiful for these. Especially because they can be incredibly impactful for the entire server if done correctly.
4. For characters who do not participate in the community for whatever reason, give them similar opportunities. Events should be frequent and plentiful. We want players to do their own events. So, reward them for this. Also, we should make the system for this be as frictionless and rapid as possible. If the CT team is able to accomplish this, it could completely stop characters from having to grind if they don't want to.

NOTE: This requires the Creative Team to be effectively directed and managed. This can be done, and people who say its impossible do not help anyone. Lets work together to get something that works. If CT members have a list of things to do, firm direction, and good organization, I think they will be able to accomplish this easily.

Long term solution:

1. Abolish repetative grinding loops which do not serve RP. However, this requires there to be some new sort of gameplay mechanism to come into replace it. I have something in mind, but that'll have to wait for a different thread.

 

[Kappatalist]

I pretty much agree with everything you've said here, just gonna add a few screenshots from a document I'd made a few months back which'll help show what I'm thinking instead of me writing it out again for the 6th time. I'm not necessarily suggesting these anymore, but it's ideas to throw around and think about.




I think, personally, one of the biggest issues with rebels is the fact they don't want to do anything but be a rebel. Willard was made with surface rebels in mind and inherently that means leaving the slums behind and focusing on improving the city and encouraging rebels to work there, to do everything they'd want to as a rebel inside the city and not outside of it where they can't interact with the other half of the server, Loyalists and Civil Protection. I remember sneaking into the CMU laboratory to make medicine and pills for my rebel group at the time because we didn't have a chemistry lab - it was a lot of fun having to avoid being found out by the other doctors and Civil Protection, things like this made the server busier when things like this had to be done instead of having everything a rebel would ever need inside of the slums. Again, I'm not making exact suggestions, but explaining my opinions and throwing some ideas around.

A year ago rebel RP looked like a Cybercafe, a Restaurant, a decrepit bar or a tattoo parlour. Now it's an apartment with storage lockers - I'm not saying people don't do this, but it's not prevalent (At least, in November when I last played much).

I remember back when Booile was around rebels would be given various missions and tasks in the rebel discord and these would be completed pretty much constantly with players eager to win favour with Nacht/Wardens as well as items, chips etc. This is what we should encourage which I agree with on your points. With Neonity, who helped Booile back then too, in the front seat of the Nacht Terrorist train I think we'll see something similar to this again anyway.

 

[Neonity]

With Neonity, who helped Booile back then too, in the front seat of the Nacht Terrorist train I think we'll see something similar to this again anyway.

 

[Belgg]

1. (LFC WAS SUPPOSED TO DO THIS) build a community of refugees out in the slums. Use the items coming from their supply lines to act as supplies for the community. ICly find capable characters and delegate the following tasks to them.
   1. Build a clinic
   2. Clean up the decrepit and abandoned buildings
   3. Set up a kitchen to feed the needy, and the kitchen via supply lines. (more impactful if death from hunger/thirst is turned back on)
   4. Enact a list of rules for the community, and pick characters to see to it that those rules are followed.

aaand where do you get the scripts to do all of this from, exactly?

1. (LFC WAS SUPPOSED TO DO THIS) offer characters a story line to follow. Rebel groups can team up to go out on small events which accomplish some sort of goal for the community. These events might be risky, so the rewards should be plentiful for these. Especially because they can be incredibly impactful for the entire server if done correctly.

Jun's army will do this

1. For characters who do not participate in the community for whatever reason, give them similar opportunities. Events should be frequent and plentiful. We want players to do their own events. So, reward them for this. Also, we should make the system for this be as frictionless and rapid as possible. If the CT team is able to accomplish this, it could completely stop characters from having to grind if they don't want to.

1. Reduce trash spawners on the map. There would be outrage if you got rid of them entirely. However, with them present, the points below will have little impact.

These last two points require the clonetrooper team to be active, but we know that they aren't, and that would make the whole system fall, that's why I don't like it.

Now it's an apartment with storage lockers

There are 5 bases in this new map. 1 is used by LFC, and I can guarantee you 2 of them are rarely used, another one is not in use at the moment, and the last one I haven't seen anyone use it in a very fucking long time.

 

[Belgg]

The solution to avoid grinding is the following:

1. Remove fucking "caravans" that make people want to grind until they have a fucking ton of chips to make sure no one will steal the shit they want, instead, base it entirely on BMD rep (If your character has a really good relation with the BMD in question, they can ask him for stuff, but don't do auctions)
2. If there are regular player bmds around, DO NOT PLAY AS AN ADMIN BMD
3. Give some sort of reward to people that RP (Quests for chips or scripts, make expeditions, and actually give them something for completing them...)

 

[Neonity]

Remove fucking "caravans" that make people want to grind until they have a fucking ton of chips to make sure no one will steal the shit they want, instead, base it entirely on BMD rep (If your character has a really good relation with the BMD in question, they can ask him for stuff, but don't do auctions)

This one stands out to me. BMD events have been overused in the past with certain people showing up way more than any event character should have, seemingly at random with no consideration of the players online, their wealth, or the economy in general. BMD events should be rare, and should be more than a glorified script market.

Another (somewhat related) concern is that we have a BMD logging channel on Discord that keeps track of exactly which items were sold by BMDs and their price (if not on our selling chart) so we can keep track of the flow of guns into the economy and gauge if there's too little or too many, etc. HOWEVER, this channel has not been used since JUNE. So I have no idea what kind of weapons went into the economy since then, what prices they were sold at, to who, etc. I don't know why this logging channel just decided to go unused since I couldn't find any reference to "Hey, we're not gonna log our sales anymore.".

While I don't think any staff BMDs have abused the lack of a logging requirement, it makes it very easy for staff to spawn copious amounts of guns and sell them for cheap, since nobody ever checks what they sell. The last BMD sale logged was at the start of June 2022.

Spoiler: BMD logging

 

[M!NT]

The solution to avoid grinding is the following:

1. Remove fucking "caravans" that make people want to grind until they have a fucking ton of chips to make sure no one will steal the shit they want, instead, base it entirely on BMD rep (If your character has a really good relation with the BMD in question, they can ask him for stuff, but don't do auctions)
2. If there are regular player bmds around, DO NOT PLAY AS AN ADMIN BMD
3. Give some sort of reward to people that RP (Quests for chips or scripts, make expeditions, and actually give them something for completing them...)

This is basically what I said. Yes, reward people for RP, get rid of admin vending machines. I think admin BMDs as a whole shouldn't exist.

aaand where do you get the scripts to do all of this from, exactly?

If you read my post you would see the part where I said:

1. (LFC WAS SUPPOSED TO DO THIS) build a community of refugees out in the slums. Use the items coming from their supply lines to act as supplies for the community. ICly find capable characters and delegate the following tasks to them.

These last two points require the clonetrooper team to be active, but we know that they aren't, and that would make the whole system fall, that's why I don't like it.

HARD DISAGREE I've seen this done before on different communities of a similar size and I know that it can be done. We can't just throw up our hands and say 'well that'd be nice, but we can't do it'. Nonsense.

 

[Vadim]

Hello developers,
Please implement mechanics that allow people to RP better
A few suggestions on how this can be done:
- Make a script that grades everyone's /Me's for vocabulary and length, if they post 3-4 ones that fall below grade D, they get automatically banned
- If someone tries to loot multiple trash spawns in a row instead of roleplaying, they will be temp banned
- The more time someone spends in slums, the lower their server "social credit" gets, approximately 4 hours of being inside in 1 week will lead to a ban
Best regards, Vadim.

 

[Belgg]

If you read my post you would see the part where I said:

Well, you say "Their supply lines" I don't really know what you mean by that...

HARD DISAGREE I've seen this done before on different communities of a similar size and I know that it can be done. We can't just throw up our hands and say 'well that'd be nice, but we can't do it'. Nonsense.

This is Willard. It has a lot of resources and no idea how to manage them

 

[Neonity]

This is Willard. It has a lot of resources and no idea how to manage them

Community Managers should… idk… manage… the community (hot take)

 

[Belgg]

Hello developers,
Please implement mechanics that allow people to RP better
A few suggestions on how this can be done:
- Make a script that grades everyone's /Me's for vocabulary and length, if they post 3-4 ones that fall below grade D, they get automatically banned
- If someone tries to loot multiple trash spawns in a row instead of roleplaying, they will be temp banned
- The more time someone spends in slums, the lower their server "social credit" gets, approximately 4 hours of being inside in 1 week will lead to a ban
Best regards, Vadim.

What the fuck

 

[M!NT]

UPDATE: I have added cooldowns to the trash spawning code.

Basically, if someone searches the trash X amount of times in Y amount of seconds, they get placed on a cooldown for Z seconds where they won't be able to search the trash. X, Y, Z are all configurable.

This can be used when we reopen if admins feel inclined to do so.

 

[Robert]

I believe this is what causes most of the issues for Rebel players, even if it isn't the direct cause for their frustration. The roots of these issues grow deep, and this gameplay loop is the bedrock of rebel RP currently.

This is because items are important. I cannot just lean back in my chair and say "You do not need items to RP." THAT FIXES NOTHING.
Stop pointing fingers at each other and blaming this as an issue with the playerbase. IT IS NOT THEIR FAULT.

If you don't read anything in this thread, AT LEAST READ THIS:
If you want to get the playerbase to do something, specifically Rebels, you must reward them somehow (scripts and/or development).

Finally, someone who doesn't blame players for an inherent gameplay loop issue.

The Current gameplay loop involves a whole array of not just trash but BMDs, smugglers, crafting etc. I have always felt fits more of the bill of blame... including Skills, but I will get to skills in just a moment further into this post. Just that for so long, many players, including staff, have thrown a lot of hate towards Rebels when their hate should have been directed at the root rather than the branch.

I know I was once a Person blaming Rebels myself until you actually play them and see their gameplay, and then you begin to understand slowly but surely.

---

Effect: Lack of Development/Staleness
Rebel characters typically have very little progression. Their progression opportunities are pictured below:

That is pretty much the lifecycle of a rebel, though I would add in one thing of when options are directly given to Rebels... they do tend to avoid it at all costs despite the fact it is extremely doable for them. Take the infamous i17 incident where a solo player took on the CPRD and did more damage to the Combine than the entire resistance combined. This is one situation where I would have to point out players but also at the same time point directly at the direct staleness and feeling of Willard's Rebel scene from an internal perspective. Everything is so risky to the point death once it comes is best just to quit rather than continue given the grindset is truly real.

---

Short term solution:

NOTE: All of this can be done now, and with little code support. It just requires passionate people which are directed effectively. We have plenty of passionate people, but little direction. I think this will be resolved in time.

1. Reduce trash spawners on the map. There would be outrage if you got rid of them entirely. However, with them present, the points below will have little impact.
2. (LFC WAS SUPPOSED TO DO THIS) build a community of refugees out in the slums. Use the items coming from their supply lines to act as supplies for the community. ICly find capable characters and delegate the following tasks to them.
   1. Build a clinic
   2. Clean up the decrepit and abandoned buildings
   3. Set up a kitchen to feed the needy, and the kitchen via supply lines. (more impactful if death from hunger/thirst is turned back on)
   4. Enact a list of rules for the community, and pick characters to see to it that those rules are followed.
3. (LFC WAS SUPPOSED TO DO THIS) offer characters a story line to follow. Rebel groups can team up to go out on small events which accomplish some sort of goal for the community. These events might be risky, so the rewards should be plentiful for these. Especially because they can be incredibly impactful for the entire server if done correctly.
4. For characters who do not participate in the community for whatever reason, give them similar opportunities. Events should be frequent and plentiful. We want players to do their own events. So, reward them for this. Also, we should make the system for this be as frictionless and rapid as possible. If the CT team is able to accomplish this, it could completely stop characters from having to grind if they don't want to.

I think this is quite a good step in the right direction and yes... LFC was meant to do all of that but failed to even lift off the ground for reasons I am not too qualified to even remember at this point. Maybe they gave up or maybe their leaders didn't exactly give them the proper instructions on what they were doing, who knows.

But to get started, this is a good start to a solution and feel like it would be good as a V2 continuation solution.

But the long term is where I want to get to and really start talking about ideas:

Long term solution:

1. Abolish repetative grinding loops which do not serve RP. However, this requires there to be some new sort of gameplay mechanism to come into replace it. I have something in mind, but that'll have to wait for a different thread.

This is its most vague form is pretty much spot on and I have made an entire document regarding an complete up and down shakedown of the whole rebel scene top to bottom. Rather than post it here though and give everyone a headache of over 5000 words to read, I will respond instead by shrinking down the key points that basically support your post through and through.

Now I will say that one of the BMD's leaders have already given this a read-through and are so far happy with it. Just wanted to mention that as I know some may be sceptical of who has seen these ideas presented so far.

I am not going to try too overboard as I know some may be upset or unable to take in too much info all at once, but to your first point you made in your post about trash, yes... these do need a heavy reduction with some additional cooldowns alongside their loot container brothers and sisters. These encourage far too much "Sit around and wait for spawns" type of behaviour as a direct cause of this gameplay functionality. TO begin fixing it, there first needs to be a reduction with more RP-friendly routes opened up to gain what you need rather than playing trash hunter simulator all day.

Trash is like that best friend you know will always be there... because it is... constantly in fact literally the only reliable route to get stuff at this point. Path of least resistance as you put it. So yes, this is "Step 1". Of course, Trash will eventually one day be gone entirely and this has been made clear by both this post and Rad-X and then replaced with something else far more RP friendly and entertaining.

The second is to look into the Smugglers and either rework them from the ground up or outright remove them. I know many will find this EXTREMELY unpopular unless something is given as an alternative since its part of the gameplay loop they currently have and without it, it stops their income dead in its tracks. But before I get into that, the reason as to why it should be gone? Smugglers are just NPCs, they can't say hello, they can't bargain, they can't RP with you nor interact. Just sell a bunch of items with no RP whatsoever, just a few clicks and done.

These are 100% contributing to that dead feeling in Rebels whether they realize it themselves or not and is a part of the gameplay which is pretty much a silent killer in its own form and glory. But now for the alternative, where do I get my bloody income? Where is my Chips... well read below.

Thirdly, the economy should be reworked and I will put this into its own post and its def part of the long-term solution where we stop having 2 currencies and just go back to tradition with one physical currency. A currency with substance and actual value to it for all parties/factions including Rebels. The isolated chip economy of the Rebels is not healthy for them and never will be. Them being so divided from the main economy forces them to use an extremely small and limited set of anti-rp tools like NPCs, BMDs and Crafting just to get their daily bread. Credits has no use for a Rebel. Chips has no use for a citizen or Cp. They become redundant in each other's eyes and split the player base.

By merging Chips and Credits into one and making something akin to Tokens once again, you can get a physical currency which allows ALL players to contribute it creating an economic loop which I will get into on a standalone economics post going into the very core details of economy, how an economy works and how to create a stable economic flow without the need of some bottomless money pit but rather a budget.

With a stable cash flow made under 1 currency, rebels suddenly gain a whole new world of options to gain money. Maybe setup and run stores, infiltrate with reason to begin stealing funds from a faction, interact with the City more and do trade with standard people to create individual businesses, etc. Hell you can even bribe CPs properly because you won't be stuck using a currency they don't want, but instead one they would desperately need for their own good.

Player to Player interactions should drive the economy and there are good ways to do that which can massively boost the rebel scene and RP in on go. 2 birds and 1 stone.

BMDs I will get into at a later date as well, but to touch on them slightly, I think they too need a MAJOR rework top to bottom. Skills is another subject as well in itself. I will be posting these threads shortly and then linking them all here for extensive reading.

 

[The_Grass_Man]

I think that the only way to fix rebelrp is to give them more guns and a town to RP in

 

[Cocohop]

Jun's army will do this

Quest: Shoot the nearest cop

 

[toby]

da fuck is dis

 

[alessiodoomboy]

I don't have much to add to this other than simply saying I agree. The rebel economy as a whole has been a mess since I started playing. I've experienced the rebel character progression graph personally and can speak to it's validity, as well as the difficulty doing anything.

+ Support from here

 

[Salty]

Wipe and then do this.

 

[toby]

Wipe and then do this.

I disagree

 

[M!NT]

I disagree

I disagree with you disagreeing with salty who agrees with me