Stagnation of the gamemode - A discussion

[Thood74]

What are the problems, what can be done to fix them? Or is it even a problem at all? Is the gamemode fine?

(The gamemode refers to HL2RP as an experience, not the actual state of the framework/schema's. Even if they are related in some regards. I think it is best to clarify this.)

Really, discuss anything relating to the topic. Don't try to derail or act like an antagonistic prick.

I'm writing this in a semi conscious state, so I think this is all I can write while still sounding coherent. Have fun!

(P.S: This does not cover problems exclusively with WN, if you think a problem applies to all helix/all HL2RP servers for whatever reason, it should be covered)

 

[Sagsworth]

What are the problems, what can be done to fix them? Or is it even a problem at all? Is the gamemode fine?

(The gamemode refers to HL2RP as an experience, not the actual state of the framework/schema's. Even if they are related in some regards. I think it is best to clarify this.)

Really, discuss anything relating to the topic. Don't try to derail or act like an antagonistic prick.

I'm writing this in a semi conscious state, so I think this is all I can write while still sounding coherent. Have fun!

(P.S: This does not cover problems exclusively with WN, if you think a problem applies to all helix/all HL2RP servers for whatever reason, it should be covered)

HL2RP is stuck between a serious roleplay medium where you develop characters and create stories, and an RPG where your character gets better and defeats their chosen enemy. Almost everyone claims they play HL2RP for the stories, but I bet you a majority of players were first interested in it for the RPG elements. Farming workshofts and just afking to get tokens has been common practice for years, shouting about random scraps for sale to get clout and currency. The roleplay comes on the side of this, and for people who stick around this becomes the primary draw of the gamemode. I'd love it if there was a huge audience for slow-paced roleplay pre-built and ready to join, but that's just not the case - this audience is built.

By leaning too far away from the Serious RP elements you end up with HL2:RPG, the problem with this is that better RPGs exist out there - Garry's mod isn't where people go to for this type of play. Most players will eventually realise they're just playing a worse version of an MMO and move on, unless the roleplay portion entices them. The roleplay side isn't flashy and attractive, people who are already invested in Serious RP will be interested but you won't get activity from newer players who are unfamiliar with the format. And these sides don't get on well, generally, the gamemode is tough and so to optimise the RPG side, people are cut-throat and disinterested in roleplay and end up causing a massive nuisance for people who just want to develop characters.

So you can be a purist and play on a tiny server with your friends, ignore the RPG elements, and have this be pure collaborative storytelling. Or you can lean hard into the RPG side of things and create a gameplay loop that attracts new players to build a large community, but you sacrifice the roleplay and will disenfranchise people who love the gamemode by rewarding behaviours that are antithetical to character development. There isn't much reconciling these two sides, only finding the best compromise you can.

 

[dave.]

I hate roleplay.

 

[Thood74]

I personally find a problem in the formula and how it has aged.

This gamemode has existed for lord knows how many years. And yet, the formula has barely changed since it became more serious. Some servers have tried new things or twists on the old, typically the latter. However, these servers have either been made to expire, or have died to infighting/low player counts.

It needs refreshing, new content. Maybe a departure from encouraged RPG mechanics/mentalities? Or perhaps something even more simple.

 

[Stinky Rags]

Serious Roleplay in another setting aside from Gmod is characterised by being a pure text-based and visual experience. There is zero player killing, there's no s2k, there's no s2m, there's no shooting anyone. The person who owns the character decides if they want to die, with only very very certain situations sort of making it impossible, though even that's only enforced if they're in a guild (and they can just leave.)

I've come from RP where the only items your character have are what you emote out, or what you write down on a character profile. I've always wondered if that's the way that HL2RP should go because that is what true, serious roleplay is about. You don't need an actual script saying you have a watermelon, you emote you have it, you emote your character cradling it in their bag for a succulent lunch later. Likewise, you don't need an actual gun in the game to shoot someone, you emote it out, you type how you shoot them, and they react, that's what serious RP is I reckon. It's why I like the TBC because it's inching closer towards that more serious feel, divinity 2 and Baldurs gate are very heavy on roleplay, sure there are RPG elements but it's much more based on your character.

Thing is like it was said up, pure roleplay can bore a lot of people. Some people need that RPG, but, conversely, This is HL2RP, nor HL2RPG.

I also think a genuine wider community (not here) has an impact. Due to the focus of the RPG feel, the focus on getting guns, and stats, create a more negative and competitive atmosphere. When you get pked, you're not writing a brilliant end to a story, but rather; "Shit, I lost all my guns!" - Then you leave, or cause drama, nine times out of ten... although that doesn't seem to be a problem here which I'm grateful for, I know it exists practically everywhere else. Also, the way people treat others for their creative ideas; insulting their lore submissions, character profiles, that will deter a lot of loyal, active and serious roleplayers. Imo if you have nothing nice to say don't say it at all, especially when in regards to people's creative content; if people want criticism, they'll state it.

 

[Nebulous Simp]

Serious Roleplay in another setting aside from Gmod is characterised by being a pure text-based and visual experience. There is zero player killing, there's no s2k, there's no s2m, there's no shooting anyone. The person who owns the character decides if they want to die, with only very very certain situations sort of making it impossible, though even that's only enforced if they're in a guild (and they can just leave.)

I've come from RP where the only items your character have are what you emote out, or what you write down on a character profile. I've always wondered if that's the way that HL2RP should go because that is what true, serious roleplay is about. You don't need an actual script saying you have a watermelon, you emote you have it, you emote your character cradling it in their bag for a succulent lunch later. Likewise, you don't need an actual gun in the game to shoot someone, you emote it out, you type how you shoot them, and they react, that's what serious RP is I reckon. It's why I like the TBC because it's inching closer towards that more serious feel, divinity 2 and Baldurs gate are very heavy on roleplay, sure there are RPG elements but it's much more based on your character.

Thing is like it was said up, pure roleplay can bore a lot of people. Some people need that RPG, but, conversely, This is HL2RP, nor HL2RPG.

I also think a genuine wider community (not here) has an impact. Due to the focus of the RPG feel, the focus on getting guns, and stats, create a more negative and competitive atmosphere. When you get pked, you're not writing a brilliant end to a story, but rather; "Shit, I lost all my guns!" - Then you leave, or cause drama, nine times out of ten... although that doesn't seem to be a problem here which I'm grateful for, I know it exists practically everywhere else. Also, the way people treat others for their creative ideas; insulting their lore submissions, character profiles, that will deter a lot of loyal, active and serious roleplayers. Imo if you have nothing nice to say don't say it at all, especially when in regards to people's creative content; if people want criticism, they'll state it.

In my experience every other serious roleplay game outside of GMOD has usually had some sort of S2K/PvP system to deal with conflict, (Mount and blade, Jedi Academy, WoW). Every time I see S2RP done with over 2 or 3 people, it just ends up in relentless bitching. The fucking dickheads just can't stand it, "MOMMY IVE LOST MY ITEMS." Thing is, scripts are great, they make the game sustainable without the need for people to keep making events constantly. Great for autistics who don't like talking to people, just wander around some beach picking up bits of plastic, yes sir! HAHAHA!

 

[Nebulous Simp]

Also doesn't help when lying, sociopathic autistic server directors decide to randomly refund some bitch's gear after I gun her down fairly in S2K. Un-fucking-believable!

 

[Thood74]

@Nebulous Simp i'm not sure if you are shitposting or being legitimate.

Yes, S2RP has problems due to inciting arguments and whatnot. However it is typically viewed as a neccesity due to what the alternative is. Pure S2K/other PVP systems could certainly work PROVIDED the server was built around it. WN isn't, and most servers aren't.

 

[Nebulous Simp]

@Nebulous Simp i'm not sure if you are shitposting or being legitimate.

Yes, S2RP has problems due to inciting arguments and whatnot. However it is typically viewed as a neccesity due to what the alternative is. Pure S2K/other PVP systems could certainly work PROVIDED the server was built around it. WN isn't, and most servers aren't.

The gamemode is dead. GMOD had more variety in serious roleplay and average higher playerbase back when the game had a 3rd of it's current population.

 

[Thood74]

The gamemode is dead. GMOD had more variety in serious roleplay and average higher playerbase back when the game had a 3rd of it's current population.

So a lack of variety is the issue to an extent? Yeah, I can see where you are coming from. Just need more servers to try and make that step forward I suppose.

 

[Equinox]

What are the problems, what can be done to fix them? Or is it even a problem at all? Is the gamemode fine?

(The gamemode refers to HL2RP as an experience, not the actual state of the framework/schema's. Even if they are related in some regards. I think it is best to clarify this.)

Really, discuss anything relating to the topic. Don't try to derail or act like an antagonistic prick.

I'm writing this in a semi conscious state, so I think this is all I can write while still sounding coherent. Have fun!

(P.S: This does not cover problems exclusively with WN, if you think a problem applies to all helix/all HL2RP servers for whatever reason, it should be covered)

These questions have already been discussed waaaaaay way back when this place was still called TeslaCloud. Essentially, most of the staff along with others concluded that the issues that most servers faced was due to the very issues that are inherently present with City HL2RP.

What are the problems,

When your default faction, citizens, is limited in what they can do, and punished for trying to do more, it inherently lessens the value of the default faction. This causes players to seek other factions (circlejerk rebel groups, CP, etc) to fill that void. This only props up those factions as bigger and better while citizens are ignored. This repeats and repeats and repeats until eventually, your default faction that is the lifeblood of your server is now outnumbered or even worse, not even really present. Aside from shitty staff teams, this is usually what causes a server to decline and eventually die.

But this issue is inherent to the gamemode, because if you give citizens to much freedom, then it isn't a dystopian city of Half Life 2. It falls into the trap that players want to play an empowered character, and will be quick to find alternatives if they cannot play a character who can engage and have influence in the world around them.

what can be done to fix

Well, simply put, you have to HAVE TO focus on the Citizens, aka those who can have an influence on the server. City HL2RP in function is like a machine that can only operate in one fashion. You have to prop up every faction around citizens, and truly dedicate your entire server around making the citizen faction the most important, or else the machine will faulter and begin to sputter.

Of course "Make citizen RP interesting!" has been repeated ad nauseum. It's actually a matter of doing. Making decisions that may hurt in the short term, but help in the long term. You have to maintain a vigilant approach to ensuring that the Citizen character is empowered, which is why you'll see me getting antsy and shitty in threads over what is seemingly something very minor. CP hanging out in the Nexus? OTA on constantly? Large administration factions? Circlejerk rebel militants? These are all topics I've written many paragraphs on because they harm the citizen faction.

Again, many communities claim to want to fix it, but simply saying "Our CP won't relentlessly fuck with Citizens!" and calling it a day is usually the extent (or equivelant) of what most servers do because, whoopdie doo, they did the job. No, you have to build up every system from the ground up and really empower the citizen character. You have to give them the oppressive theme of a HL2 system, but at the same time, allow them to flourish and have a freedom of choice to do what they want.

And for the most part, the staff here agree on that. It's why I specifically stuck with Willard after months if not a couple years of not touching HL2RP, because they were willing to accept that, YES, Citizens are the most important faction and you need to dedicate everything to actually MAKING that faction important.

 

[Sagsworth]

These questions have already been discussed waaaaaay way back when this place was still called TeslaCloud. Essentially, most of the staff along with others concluded that the issues that most servers faced was due to the very issues that are inherently present with City HL2RP.


When your default faction, citizens, is limited in what they can do, and punished for trying to do more, it inherently lessens the value of the default faction. This causes players to seek other factions (circlejerk rebel groups, CP, etc) to fill that void. This only props up those factions as bigger and better while citizens are ignored. This repeats and repeats and repeats until eventually, your default faction that is the lifeblood of your server is now outnumbered or even worse, not even really present. Aside from shitty staff teams, this is usually what causes a server to decline and eventually die.

But this issue is inherent to the gamemode, because if you give citizens to much freedom, then it isn't a dystopian city of Half Life 2. It falls into the trap that players want to play an empowered character, and will be quick to find alternatives if they cannot play a character who can engage and have influence in the world around them.


Well, simply put, you have to HAVE TO focus on the Citizens, aka those who can have an influence on the server. City HL2RP in function is like a machine that can only operate in one fashion. You have to prop up every faction around citizens, and truly dedicate your entire server around making the citizen faction the most important, or else the machine will faulter and begin to sputter.

Of course "Make citizen RP interesting!" has been repeated ad nauseum. It's actually a matter of doing. Making decisions that may hurt in the short term, but help in the long term. You have to maintain a vigilant approach to ensuring that the Citizen character is empowered, which is why you'll see me getting antsy and shitty in threads over what is seemingly something very minor. CP hanging out in the Nexus? OTA on constantly? Large administration factions? Circlejerk rebel militants? These are all topics I've written many paragraphs on because they harm the citizen faction.

Again, many communities claim to want to fix it, but simply saying "Our CP won't relentlessly fuck with Citizens!" and calling it a day is usually the extent (or equivelant) of what most servers do because, whoopdie doo, they did the job. No, you have to build up every system from the ground up and really empower the citizen character. You have to give them the oppressive theme of a HL2 system, but at the same time, allow them to flourish and have a freedom of choice to do what they want.

And for the most part, the staff here agree on that. It's why I specifically stuck with Willard after months if not a couple years of not touching HL2RP, because they were willing to accept that, YES, Citizens are the most important faction and you need to dedicate everything to actually MAKING that faction important.

Big agree, citizens are an amazing faction and need to be supported. The big mistake I find people making in this regard is blaming players for this disconnect instead of creating an environment where it's easy to interact. This is the main reason I am determined to make it easy for rebels to access the city, and like for things underground to be harder. People complain about hidden containers but rebels need somewhere to store contraband if they're going to interact with citizens in a meaningful way, and I'd take hidden containers over hidden bases any day of the week (although hidden bases used well can be great). The idea that rebels can be completely separated from the citizen population is a huge mistake and instead of blaming the players for hiding from cops, staff need to facilitate this playstyle by making it viable via the rules. The same goes for cops, if you want cops to not hide in the Nexus to passive - you have to let them passive in public. Cops should be able to have conversations, ramble together in public and be able to shoot the shit with citizens without being scared of demotion.