Nerf the OTA HP pool

[Astro]

Hey, OTA whitelist holder here, I've come to make a case to nerf this faction's tankiness. In recent days, OTA deployments have become more and more frequent. Throughout these weeks, it has become increasingly evident that OTA will win their engagements most of the time because of their equipment and bullet-spongey nature. Not because of a difference in tactics. This has led to members brute-forcing every engagement, and this has been observed by the leads as well. Now I am not advocating for OTA squads to be capable of being wiped by simple scrap guns or have their own guns be equivalent to nerf guns, but what I am advocating for is a change in design philosophy and a nerf to the faction overall to make engagements less one-sided.

As it stands, OTA are completely in their purview to deploy for rebels after certain criteria are met. These rebel attacks have become more frequent, and each time OTA are deployed against an even substantial attacking force, they wipe with little to no contest. There is the rare instance that sure, a soldier or few may die, but these are so far in-between that some concerns need to be raised. This faction has remained practically unchanged developmentally substantially for quite a while now, at least since I was whitelisted months ago back in October. When I was first whitelisted, we only deployed for major threats that might’ve warranted their large health pool. However, since then, the server has changed drastically as well as the rebel presence. Nowadays, we deploy frequently in response to rebel action or freed vortigaunts which usually results in combatting rebels, and as I’ve stated prior; each firefight does not need any forethought on the OTA side as we can rush in, hold W and win. So here’s what I propose. I propose to lower both the HP and armor down from 150 each to around 125 or lower. This will in turn give us a combined health pool of ~300 to ~250 or lower. If it was lowered, it will force us to take things slower and use our brains. Now let's crunch some numbers.

A full, normal OTA squad has a combined pool of 1,800. Let’s throw in an APF. That then brings it up to ~1950. If we look to their lesser counterparts, Civil Protection, with the same count brings their combined pools to around 900. Essentially, each soldier is worth two cops. Now normally, this wouldn’t be an issue until you start considering how strong their weapons are. While base damage may not be much to start, you have to consider that each soldier will likely have max or close to max gun skill. This means a vast majority of your shots will be crits. A few of their guns do close to around 13-16 damage, but crits bring them up to ~20 damage altogether. This particular health pool and weapon combination are not balanced whatsoever, and people have taken note thus resulting in more brute force/rushing than anything else. Now if we lower their health to the proposed numbers, it would drop this down to a combined pool of 1500. You would only need to do 600 extra damage as to opposed the 900 extra damage, or even lower in case their health was dropped even lower. Remember, if OTA dies, they lose absolutely nothing. But when you throw 300HP soldiers with broken weapons at regular characters, then you start to have issues when you wipe away months or years of work with little effort. We should have to put in the effort if we want to win, but currently, it’s easy to turn our brains off and win that way - utilizing half to maybe even a quarter of our kit.

I can recall a few instances where this is an obvious issue. There are times when we get called in with a very small amount of soldiers to use. Even then, we’ve still managed to somehow wipe while being outnumbered by a large number by using these same rushing tactics. This should not be allowed to happen. The OTA faction as it stands should not be this strong in this current server climate, it just isn’t fun for either side.

 

[Raptorian]

nerf EOW and make them deploy in duos did u guys even play the games..

 

[HOKI]

If this gets accepted its gonna backfire so hard. trust me i have been playing willard since 2012

 

[Jacob]

nerf EOW and make them deploy in duos did u guys even play the games..

EOW deployed as the end because gordon freeman was anti-citizen #1 and about to destroy the citadel did you ever play the games?

 

[Vadim]

when the op noncharacters can no longer effortlessly kill actual characters and wipe months of progress with 0 risk to themselves... it's over....

 

[The_Grass_Man]

 

[Raptorian]

EOW deployed as the end because gordon freeman was anti-citizen #1 and about to destroy the citadel did you ever play the games?

yes. in duos. brah.

 

[Spitfire1]

 

[HalfLife2CitizenMale09]

Remember in HL2 where if you threw a toilet at a soldier with a high enough velocity they'd die instantly? I think about that sometimes.

 

[dude]

Remember in HL2 where if you threw a toilet at a soldier with a high enough velocity they'd die instantly? I think about that sometimes.

truuue toilets are op, wheres our toilet script???

 

[Spitfire1]

Remember in HL2 where if you threw a toilet at a soldier with a high enough velocity they'd die instantly? I think about that sometimes.

gravity gun script when

 

[M3ntal]

hot take : OTA don't need more buffs

 

[Robert]

I think this has failed to factor in something here... not going to give a long talk as LOA but put simply

6 high-tier rebels (Tier 3 armour and good guns) = Combined Pool of around 1,200
6 standard CPs (including a command unit) = Combined pool for 925-950 (Depends if RL is the command unit or not)
6 OCS = 1,500
5 OCS + OSL/ORD = 1,550
6 Standard Soldiers = 1,800

Seems pretty much like your calculations, but you forget some recent additions and changes.

Rebels now have gear providing 150 armour so get 6 of those rebels totalling 250 each and you get:
6 Super-Tier Rebels = 1,500

Of course, the OTA calculations completely ignore the deployment regulations and guidelines which OTA have to follow, so once you got those into account like the first wave scouting party of 3 OCS, they only have 750 hit points combined.

Not to mention, you are excluding Free Vorts who also have a large HP pool with a default HP of 200 + the ability to get a max of 100 armour. Making them 300 in total.

6 Vorts = 1,800

Take into account their recent changes with damage output and AOE and you got a tank pretty much. Then add an Extract vort when such comes about and your problems get worse as you fight a supercharged vort on max steroids with infinite energy.

Way longer than I wanted my post to be, but you see, if you follow OTA guidelines on top of that and suddenly OTA if it were to face a few vorts a high to super high tiered rebels- they would be at a disadvantage. Not going to go too far into the specs but our tests as of late showed that OTA and Rebels/Vorts when working together properly can wipe the floor with OTA and OTA can evenly do the same back to the Resistance. All in all, it just requires some very strong chars to take on OTA as per design given no one is actually meant to fight the OTA without some good gear on hand and a group to roll with who they can work with.

Overall outcomes with the new changes and additions, both sides are pretty much equal... given some resistance has had the time to safely build up, gear up and get a crew together.

Thank you for coming to my TED talk.
But do feel like a Nerf will backfire for the OTA and shoot themselves in the face. Balance is very delicate and rn it is carefully staying in the middle- basically near perfect with a few variations...

 

[M3ntal]

I think this has failed to factor in something here... not going to give a long talk as LOA but put simply

6 high-tier rebels (Tier 3 armour and good guns) = Combined Pool of around 1,200
6 standard CPs (including a command unit) = Combined pool for 925-950 (Depends if RL is the command unit or not)
6 OCS = 1,500
5 OCS + OSL/ORD = 1,550
6 Standard Soldiers = 1,800

Seems pretty much like your calculations, but you forget some recent additions and changes.

Rebels now have gear providing 150 armour so get 6 of those rebels totalling 250 each and you get:
6 Super-Tier Rebels = 1,500

Of course, the OTA calculations completely ignore the deployment regulations and guidelines which OTA have to follow, so once you got those into account like the first wave scouting party of 3 OCS, they only have 750 hit points combined.

Not to mention, you are excluding Free Vorts who also have a large HP pool with a default HP of 200 + the ability to get a max of 100 armour. Making them 300 in total.

6 Vorts = 1,800

Take into account their recent changes with damage output and AOE and you got a tank pretty much. Then add an Extract vort when such comes about and your problems get worse as you fight a supercharged vort on max steroids with infinite energy.

Way longer than I wanted my post to be, but you see, if you follow OTA guidelines on top of that and suddenly OTA if it were to face a few vorts a high to super high tiered rebels- they would be at a disadvantage. Not going to go too far into the specs but our tests as of late showed that OTA and Rebels/Vorts when working together properly can wipe the floor with OTA and OTA can evenly do the same back to the Resistance. All in all, it just requires some very strong chars to take on OTA as per design given no one is actually meant to fight the OTA without some good gear on hand and a group to roll with who they can work with.

Overall outcomes with the new changes and additions, both sides are pretty much equal... given some resistance has had the time to safely build up, gear up and get a crew together.

Thank you for coming to my TED talk.
But do feel like a Nerf will backfire for the OTA and shoot themselves in the face. Balance is very delicate and rn it is carefully staying in the middle- basically near perfect with a few variations...

I'd argue it's far from balanced, in consideration how during the testing the rifles of the OTA shaved our health down in seconds, as in literally, the AOE is wonky and unreliable, and extract vorts are so rare that they're basically a non-factor in regular fights.

 

[Astro]

I think this has failed to factor in something here... not going to give a long talk as LOA but put simply

6 high-tier rebels (Tier 3 armour and good guns) = Combined Pool of around 1,200
6 standard CPs (including a command unit) = Combined pool for 925-950 (Depends if RL is the command unit or not)
6 OCS = 1,500
5 OCS + OSL/ORD = 1,550
6 Standard Soldiers = 1,800

Seems pretty much like your calculations, but you forget some recent additions and changes.

Rebels now have gear providing 150 armour so get 6 of those rebels totalling 250 each and you get:
6 Super-Tier Rebels = 1,500

Of course, the OTA calculations completely ignore the deployment regulations and guidelines which OTA have to follow, so once you got those into account like the first wave scouting party of 3 OCS, they only have 750 hit points combined.

Not to mention, you are excluding Free Vorts who also have a large HP pool with a default HP of 200 + the ability to get a max of 100 armour. Making them 300 in total.

6 Vorts = 1,800

Take into account their recent changes with damage output and AOE and you got a tank pretty much. Then add an Extract vort when such comes about and your problems get worse as you fight a supercharged vort on max steroids with infinite energy.

Way longer than I wanted my post to be, but you see, if you follow OTA guidelines on top of that and suddenly OTA if it were to face a few vorts a high to super high tiered rebels- they would be at a disadvantage. Not going to go too far into the specs but our tests as of late showed that OTA and Rebels/Vorts when working together properly can wipe the floor with OTA and OTA can evenly do the same back to the Resistance. All in all, it just requires some very strong chars to take on OTA as per design given no one is actually meant to fight the OTA without some good gear on hand and a group to roll with who they can work with.

Overall outcomes with the new changes and additions, both sides are pretty much equal... given some resistance has had the time to safely build up, gear up and get a crew together.

Thank you for coming to my TED talk.
But do feel like a Nerf will backfire for the OTA and shoot themselves in the face. Balance is very delicate and rn it is carefully staying in the middle- basically near perfect with a few variations...

First, apologizes for not catching the "super-tiered" rebels, I wasn't aware of that change whatsoever. I was still under the impression that they only had tier-three armor. But anyways, the most common OTA squad being deployed for rebel encounters, freed vortigaunt spottings (this should change), and vortigaunt shackle breaches are full OWS squads, as deployment guidelines permit this. I also didn't include probe, as it is rarely used at all, only being used two times since its conception. I've checked. Also remember, deployment guidelines also allow us to throw in stronger units depending on the circumstances, so they still have some sort of advantage over the rebels/vorts. Maxing out the vortigaunt count, the total pool turns out to be around a collective ~3300 on the OTA side. If one of them somehow gets the extract, and wastes it to kill Combine, we can deploy whatever we'd like with synthetic assistance, it states explicitly so. No longer is it a wave system, but an immediate acclimation to the threat at hand.

You also have to be realistic. Most rebels with high-tier loot will not engage in firefights, or anything considered large-scale. Now unless this changes or has changed, OTA will likely wipe the floor as they are designed for threats that may never actually see the light of day. That's just the nature of the rebellion on this server as I've noticed. On the topic of vortigaunts, you will almost never have more than a few of them engage OTA or Civil Protection in that matter on a unified front. Now even if they do use armor, again, it's highly unlikely given how limiting it is to the vortigaunt player themselves; so again they're likely to hover around that 200 range.


But, as always, these coming weeks could always punch me in the mouth. Only time will tell.

 

[Robert]

I'd argue it's far from balanced, in consideration how during the testing the rifles of the OTA shaved our health down in seconds, as in literally, the AOE is wonky and unreliable, and extract vorts are so rare that they're basically a non-factor in regular fights.

And you can do the same to an OTA- in one test that occurred, a rebel managed to take an OTA down to the bare minimum HP (around 10 or so) with just an AK. Even seen things happen outside of tests, really depends on one's gun skill and overall aim. Generally, we advise only fighting OTA if you got:

- Heavy Kevlar at least
- An AK or better, preferably an M4 or some other weapon, even an AR2/SR-1 if you manage to nab yourself one which you can now.
- Have at least 40 guns skill... any lower can put you at a flat disadvantage from the get go.
- A group of sorts, preferably one you work well with since OTA themselves are coordinated so if Rebels aren't... they will get curb-stomped even in a numbers advantage

(The DPS of an M4 is slightly higher than an AR2. Making M4 stronger than both SR1 and AR2... if only people used it correctly. AK is equal to SR1- not in terms of single shot damage, but its pure DPS values.)

And yeah- taking anything less than that is suicidal and tends to get Rebels PK'd. This brings me here:

You also have to be realistic. Most rebels with high-tier loot will not engage in firefights, or anything considered large-scale.

Funnily enough, this is the same reason they lose it all so easily. Because of their reluctance to fight and turning their backs on their foes, they lose more high-tier equipment than they gain. Me, Staff and GMs alike have watched many situations play out where Rebels make a stupid move of retreat getting them all killed despite fighting being a better option by far, losing their progress and character at the click of the finger because they decided to pussy out and run away.

We know this as fights where Rebels DO fight back and not pussy out tend to have more survival chances and success than most... High Tier Rebels even run from CPs sometimes and I find myself laughing because if they just didn't run... they would've fucked the CPs due to having higher overall hitpoints, better guns and better defensive positions- but I digress as once more... rebels players gave it up and got fucked in turn. A memory I still remember on why retreat is a dumb idea and not at all tactical on City 24- completely unviable as an option... unless one actually plays smart but I won't spoil such acts but some who have bamboozled OTA and CPs alike in a chase.

Also remember, deployment guidelines also allow us to throw in stronger units depending on the circumstances, so they still have some sort of advantage over the rebels/vorts. Maxing out the vortigaunt count, the total pool turns out to be around a collective ~3300 on the OTA side.

Well this is where I would say overall combined HP is not the problem... generally the problems started jumping up for OTA in PK appeals caused by them purely because they rid themselves of the critical wave system designed with balance in mind... still not sure why they removed it and even some staff and GMs are baffled by the decision to this day considering it was a silly decision... just that it seems the faction abandoned it which in turn increased the amount of PK Appeals by Rebels which have been increasingly approved.

But that is a gripe I have and again, would rather enjoy my LOA atm so ye, I am done for now.

 

[GopnikPizzafox]

I've said this before in OTA discord chat, but I think that the main thing with tackling the "press W and LMB" mentality has less to do with the amount of HP that OTA have, and more to do with the fact that OTA, by their inherent nature as a faction, do not suffer any material consequences from dying in a deployment, which removes a big chunk of the incentive for OTA players to play more carefully, because all they have to do is either wait for the deployment to get wiped so they can deploy in the next wave, or just wait until the next deployment. Compared to both rebels and CPs, OTA inherently don't have to do any amount of grinding for scripts or STC privileges, and don't have to spend time building connections with BMD characters or established rebel groups or Rank Leaders who may be more inclined to promote them, because they aren't meant to be actual characters, just automatons with a single purpose, being to kill rebels and free vorts when CPs can't handle them. They're simply handed all of the equipment they need to make it happen, and because the nature of the faction means that OTA will have a relatively small playerbase that rarely gets to flag on OTA, people's ranks don't get reset after dying either.

This then creates a situation where CPs are actually more incentivized to play carefully during fights than OTA are, and almost makes it look like CPs are better trained than OTA are to fight, because OTA players inherently don't have to worry about getting killed as much because they won't suffer direct material consequences for doing so, because PKs aren't a thing when you're OTA. Ultimately, this is just an issue that's inherent to the way OTA functions as a faction on the server, so I wouldn't really know how to mitigate this issue myself, but I'd love to hear the faction leads chime in with their own ideas if they'd like.

 

[Neonity]

This thread is a non-issue. Let me explain.

OTA having 150 HP and 150 armour is not an issue. Let's keep in mind rebels can have up to 100 HP and 150 armour themselves. At most the difference between a well-geared rebel and OTA is only 50 HP, which I think is kind of silly considering what OTA is meant to be in lore. But I digress.

OTA is allowed to deploy in a maximum number of 6 units per deployment. A shared health pool of 1800 HP among them. 6 human rebels wearing their best gear have a shared health pool of 1500. But rebels don't need to fight in groups of 6. That is what sets them apart. As we've seen time and time again, rebels have wiped the floor clean with OTA as they've managed to bring out 22 rebels to fight 6 soldiers and won by a landslide. Even last week rebels "deployed" with 13 of them for a simple mission. So yes, there are still enough rebels to pull it off.

The AR-2 is arguably weaker than a high-end rebel weapon. The M4 or SCAR easily defeats any pulse rifle the OTA has access to by a long shot, and rebels get snipers, DMRs, and all that kind of stuff as well.

The real reason OTA have wiped the floor lately is because the code RED/JW/BLACK sociostability readings have allowed them to deploy for pretty much any threat, where under normal circumstances it wouldn't cause anywhere near an OTA deployment. This results in powerful OTA deploying for a threat OTA is not designed for. THAT is the real imbalance. The rebels in the recent Victory Square shop attack were armed with nothing more than pistols and scrap guns. The highest end gun was an M870 and that was the only gun able to put an actual dent into the OTA. They were equipped to fight cops, not OTA. That's why OTA won so easily and that is no fault of their own.

Once rebels actually start committing to fights that would actually warrant a regular OTA deployment, and OTA still hold W + LMB? The OTA will get humbled quick. And their guns fall into the hands of rebels, ready to be distributed among the rebels and giving them more manpower in turn. Easily defeating OTA for the foreseeable future. The issue solves itself.

 

[registry: brush him]

Oh, goodness me... please don't tell me it's been two years and you guys still haven't hashed this out.

This has been a subject of fervent debate ever since I left, and has continued throughout both the times I rejoined, including this one. It is obvious and clear that nobody is content with the egregious health pool of the transhuman arm.

Judging by Neonity's response, it's also safe to assume transhumans will still drop in if rebel cell so much as breathes wrong in the narrowly defined, Combine-favored space presented by City 24's map layout.


This is an ancient problem. It might be older than HL2RP itself.


It traces back to GMod HL2RP's obsession over Combine superiority, and its complete and total unwillingness to allow any space or sanctuary for rebel players. You people like to forget that there's a reason - a good reason - why the rebellion succeeded in Half-Life 2.


That, combined with the egregious double-standard - wherein one faction may roleplay however they damn well please, and the other must appeal to the staff for even a prayer of survival - needs to stop.

It doesn't matter what health pool you think is "realistic" for the scrawny windbags with harvested organs and muscle tissue traipsing about in the name of uncaring intergalactic overlords.

Honestly, I barely think 75 HP would be appropriate for the transhumans.

They just need to be at a narrative disadvantage - that's it. They need to have a health pool that makes them intimidating in large numbers or with good coordination.

We do not, never did, and will never need transhumans with 150 HP and 150 armor.

Not when rebels have to fear permanent kills, and transhumans do not.

 

[M3ntal]

This thread is a non-issue. Let me explain.

OTA having 150 HP and 150 armour is not an issue. Let's keep in mind rebels can have up to 100 HP and 150 armour themselves. At most the difference between a well-geared rebel and OTA is only 50 HP, which I think is kind of silly considering what OTA is meant to be in lore. But I digress.

OTA is allowed to deploy in a maximum number of 6 units per deployment. A shared health pool of 1800 HP among them. 6 human rebels wearing their best gear have a shared health pool of 1500. But rebels don't need to fight in groups of 6. That is what sets them apart. As we've seen time and time again, rebels have wiped the floor clean with OTA as they've managed to bring out 22 rebels to fight 6 soldiers and won by a landslide. Even last week rebels "deployed" with 13 of them for a simple mission. So yes, there are still enough rebels to pull it off.

The AR-2 is arguably weaker than a high-end rebel weapon. The M4 or SCAR easily defeats any pulse rifle the OTA has access to by a long shot, and rebels get snipers, DMRs, and all that kind of stuff as well.

The real reason OTA have wiped the floor lately is because the code RED/JW/BLACK sociostability readings have allowed them to deploy for pretty much any threat, where under normal circumstances it wouldn't cause anywhere near an OTA deployment. This results in powerful OTA deploying for a threat OTA is not designed for. THAT is the real imbalance. The rebels in the recent Victory Square shop attack were armed with nothing more than pistols and scrap guns. The highest end gun was an M870 and that was the only gun able to put an actual dent into the OTA. They were equipped to fight cops, not OTA. That's why OTA won so easily and that is no fault of their own.

Once rebels actually start committing to fights that would actually warrant a regular OTA deployment, and OTA still hold W + LMB? The OTA will get humbled quick. And their guns fall into the hands of rebels, ready to be distributed among the rebels and giving them more manpower in turn. Easily defeating OTA for the foreseeable future. The issue solves itself.

Much like the reply below you, this argument is pretty much shot down by the simple fact that OTA cannot get PK'd and rebels/vorts can, so while rebels can potentially wipe the floor with coordinated assaults, OTA don't need to coordinate assaults and rush in regardless as there's no risk to them, and they will come back. Obtaining their weapons doesn't mean jack if they have inexhaustable resources and numbers.

What it sounds like to me is a power trip that wants to keep on rolling because there's no tangible loss for them to suffer other than a trip back to the spawnpoint.