Business gate-keeping and thus' bartering/cooking gatekeeping.

[Madcombat]

Here I fucking go again, another long thread about why somthing is bad how it is bad why it is bad how is it bad mechanically and why it has a knock on effect ect ect ect fuck kill me okay fuck fuck fuck clap clap clap tyrone niggums okay im fucking ready lets go.




Businesses!


We currently have a system where you have to -apply- to have your own shop / business.





And thus we have a system where LARGE swaths of the population are gate kept from running business rp. - We also have a system that literally right now is telling you that you can't own a business, which means you can't use the BARTER skill because in order to use the BARTER skill you need to have a BUSINESS PERMIT which you can only gain through Applying and you CANT apply because Business owners are LOCKED.

Why all this bureaucracy? Just let people roleplay.

You might as well honestly remove the skill, hell remove cooking whilst we're at it. Cooking relies on being able to get a mixture of products to even utilize the skill and if there's no businesses on you can't even use the business skill to utilize it.

Just make the system simple, let people log off, log on, go to a door, own the door. Run and rp a business owner, log off when their done- rinse repeat with the ability for others to take over the store.



Wanna make it abit more perminant for well established businesses? Well don't lock 75+ players out of running a business at least.

At least give us some shops to run at least.

What's that? Want to ensure people hire other citizens? Well then make it rewarding? Have the DoP actually reward people for good hiring practice.
Don't want people spawning shit randomly for themselves and using the business menu incorrectly? Well shit tough, that's what administration is for.


Please fix.


You guys went on about "CiTiZeN CeNtRiC RoLePlAy" well then let us actually roleplay a citizen running a business.


I know this came off as hostile but this just seemed really -really- stupid to me and it's all for some kind of humour.

Thats all, peace.

 

[Sagsworth]

The big problem with the business system in my opinion is that getting it is all about credit whoring and not about providing roleplay. The businesses are given out to people who can win a bidding war, not people who create great environments and are active. This is gonna promote the "come in, buy item, fuck off so i can do next customer" instead of creating roleplay that lasts and using businesses as an RP hub. But I also agree with the above.

 

[BattleJo]

The big problem with the business system in my opinion is that getting it is all about credit whoring and not about providing roleplay. The businesses are given out to people who can win a bidding war, not people who create great environments and are active. This is gonna promote the "come in, buy item, fuck off so i can do next customer" instead of creating roleplay that lasts and using businesses as an RP hub. But I also agree with the above.

I do have to disagree with that, thou it is realy situational and it depends on the customer's and the shop owner over how they roleplay and interact with each other.

However, yes I do see it econemy wise aswell as a large issue that citizens that do not own a shop. Will find it hard to want to spend the only 10 credits they gain from a ration package, then perhaps their lucky from a workshift an extra 20 credits or so so 30 credits. To pay for food and drink alone that costs 15 credits.

 

[Madcombat]

Dont get me started on that lol

Rations contain 10 credits.
NORMAL Water costs 8 credits
SPECIAL Water costs 25 credits

 

[Bennyfridge]

Dont get me started on that lol

Rations contain 10 credits.
NORMAL Water costs 8 credits
SPECIAL Water costs 25 credits

This says a lot about our

 

[Pyureh]

Another problem is that businesses do not have a way to even pay employees. I had to convince @Robert to allow Breens First Credit Union to be on the DoP payroll, to allow it to happen as well by Community Management, just for the entire situation to be shot down minutes before the server launch.

1. I had people on payroll/jobs already.
2. I had a payment system (deposit/withdraw) set up.
3. I had planned on how we sell citizen housing, working with various faction leads, and Community Managers.
4. I had an entire system to help businesses with their payroll, book managing, property hunting/acquiring, and more.
5. I had talked with some group leaders of potential ways to entice roleplay with lesser-known/lesser-reputable groups.

Despite this, it was seen as "redundant, and not important" even though it was to fill the gaps these developers have left. They cleared the lot and laid the foundation they never even considered an actual frame of the house, much less the design.

But, again, we are criticizing a server that been out for *three days* and is having to make changes/fixes on the fly, within days.

Well, here is what I had in mind for BFCU. I won't be needing it anymore unless someone from CM wants to resurrect it so there is a better (more roleplay intensive) system until they do something to improve their system.

 

[Madcombat]

Another problem is that businesses do not have a way to even pay employees. I had to convince @Robert to allow Breens First Credit Union to be on the DoP payroll, to allow it to happen as well by Community Management, just for the entire situation to be shot down minutes before the server launch.

1. I had people on payroll/jobs already.
2. I had a payment system (deposit/withdraw) set up.
3. I had planned on how we sell citizen housing, working with various faction leads, and Community Managers.
4. I had an entire system to help businesses with their payroll, book managing, property hunting/acquiring, and more.
5. I had talked with some group leaders of potential ways to entice roleplay with lesser-known/lesser-reputable groups.

Despite this, it was seen as "redundant, and not important" even though it was to fill the gaps these developers have left. They cleared the lot and laid the foundation they never even considered an actual frame of the house, much less the design.

But, again, we are criticizing a server that been out for *three days* and is having to make changes/fixes on the fly, within days.

Well, here is what I had in mind for BFCU. I won't be needing it anymore unless someone from CM wants to resurrect it so there is a better (more roleplay intensive) system until they do something to improve their system.

I didnt know you played Eve Online too

 

[NicoleKidman69]

But, again, we are criticizing a server that been out for *three days* and is having to make changes/fixes on the fly, within days.

None of this strikes me as necessarily excessive to complain about which is why I'm surprised barely any of this seems to have been considered beforehand.

You've literally got a broken economy (ten credits per ration every four hours when a can of water costs eight?), no way to use a core skill because of the bottleneck and no way to even pay employees because of said broken economy.

This is not a "whoops yeah we missed that" situation, like the odd bug or glitch. For a "citizen-centric experience" it doesn't feel like a great deal of time went into sussing out how that would actually function compared to making a fancy UI and balancing a convoluted skill system.

 

[FreeStalker]

None of this strikes me as necessarily excessive to complain about which is why I'm surprised barely any of this seems to have been considered beforehand.

You've literally got a broken economy (ten credits per ration every four hours when a can of water costs eight?), no way to use a core skill because of the bottleneck and no way to even pay employees because of said broken economy.

This is not a "whoops yeah we missed that" situation, like the odd bug or glitch. For a "citizen-centric experience" it doesn't feel like a great deal of time went into sussing out how that would actually function compared to making a fancy UI and balancing a convoluted skill system.

To be fair- Devils advocate here-

If you told me that Supporter Grade I for loyalist 125 social points offered a substantial increase in ration benefits. Then it'd be obvious. It's an incentive for citizens to be loyal and obedient. Though I am unaware of any such benefits that are seen in-game. Then I can see it be justified...Kinda. In my experience thus far(in the past 2 days) it isn't hard to get to 125. I'm at 120 so far just by being a good noodle and reporting IC Minge behavior and such. As well as publicly showing my character's support to the Union.

But that's kinda high hopes that whoever was in charge of the system actually thought ahead for that. Would be cool though.


Edit:

Addendum:
Re-examined the Loyalty System post and Tier I and Tier II do not offer any benefits to rations, credits, or lifestyle. Tier III is where your benefits start. It's a tad too early in the server's lifespan to tell if this is intentional or if there are plans to incorporate social credit opportunities in the future. But from face-value @NicoleKidman69 your initial statement may be true.

 

[Imperator RAD-X]

10 Credits obtained every four hours from a ration terminal. 1 Breens Water standard is 8+ credits in the vending machine.

1 ration x 4 hours = 1.2 Breen Waters from a vending machine each time plus food you want to buy. Over time that will account to a plummet loss of 40 credits with a net profit of 10 every 16 hours but deducted with anything adding onto other beverages. In which case, in the space of sixteen hours, you have lost much of your standing credits in half a day for pure basic necessities.

You must play 16 hours to get 4.8 Breen Waters from the vending machine while you dehydrate and potentially /die/ and will if you don't have the credits.

This needs changed. Please @Robert .

EDIT: Changed to 16 hours, because 12 accounts to 3 rations. That's even worse than predicted and I am a monkey when it comes to maths

 

[Madcombat]

 

[FreeStalker]

10 Credits obtained every four hours from a ration terminal. 1 Breens Water standard is 8+ credits in the vending machine.

1 ration x 4 hours = 1.2 Breen Waters from a vending machine each time plus food you want to buy. Over time that will account to a plummet loss of 40 credits with a net profit of 10 every 16 hours but deducted with anything adding onto other beverages. In which case, in the space of sixteen hours, you have lost much of your standing credits in half a day for pure basic necessities.

You must play 16 hours to get 4.8 Breen Waters from the vending machine while you dehydrate and potentially /die/ and will if you don't have the credits.

This needs changed. Please @Robert .

EDIT: Changed to 16 hours, because 12 accounts to 3 rations. That's even worse than predicted and I am a monkey when it comes to maths

I wouldn't say change it outright. We are living in a dystopian universe where humanity is more or less in a shitty situation- we are turned into a labor force and given pity on as the Combine drain our resources. My suggestion would be to make Tier I and Tier II loyalty offer ration benefits, and perhaps expanding Civil Protection where they offer more social credits. Encourage more loyalty.

More loyalty = better food/credits? Sounds like a nice trade in theory. We already start with 100 by default. Tier I is at 125. Some measure of increase for bothering to raise your loyalty should be provided.

 

[theHandgun]

So you are unhappy that you didn't get to run a shop, sorry but the majority of the players won't have the chance due to supply-demand. The businesses are not locked down, if the owner doesn't open the shop for a long time, they won't earn enough credits to pay their loans and rent therefore, the shop will be owned by someone else instead. With the bidding war, the shops that can attract customers and provide good RP value will be earning more because making a purchase is emotional, not logical. It's the second day of the server, why don't we all give it some time and see if the current system is going to work out or not instead of thinking about hypothetical scenarios?

There will be many stalls that can be claimed by anyone until they go offline, you can sell stuff there.

 

[FreeStalker]

So you are unhappy that you didn't get to run a shop, sorry but the majority of the players won't have the chance due to supply-demand. The businesses are not locked down, if the owner doesn't open the shop for a long time, they won't earn enough credits to pay their loans and rent therefore, the shop will be owned by someone else instead. With the bidding war, the shops that can attract customers and provide good RP value will be earning more because making a purchase is emotional, not logical. It's the second day of the server, why don't we all give it some time and see if the current system is going to work out or not instead of thinking about hypothetical scenarios?

Did you read the initial post? The problem is that you have essentially NOT ONE- BUT TWO skills locked to players because they need a permit- that they need to apply for OOCly. Cooking requires barter to obtain the necessary ingredients for cooking, let alone the tools. Not only that, but none of these businesses are going to get any profits because rations give you squat when it comes to credits as RAD-X pointed out. Vending machines sell breen water for 8, and other drinks are exponentially more expensive from them. Sure, you can buy them from the businesses but those prices aren't much better for either side(Breen watter, iirc, is around 3-4 credits. Meaning they'd need to sell it for at the very least five credits for a one-credit profit)

Sure, we can all go to a pub or diner and have a drink. Enjoy the roleplay. But a purchase for food/drink items is most def a logical choice because you have four hours of drainage on those meters until your next ration- and the items provided in normal rations don't satisfy. Ontop of that, I've been keeping an eye on the skills bar and maybe it's a glitch- I don't know yet- but your gained EXP appears to be draining/deteriorating. Mine dropped from 8 to 3.9(Didn't die in this timeframe) but then it jumped back up after I had my next ration to 5.4....

Meaning there are plenty of incentives for a working economy that allows players to have freedom of choice. Also to remind you that a shop owner was arrested today and his store closed temporarily for petty reasons by CPs apparently- Which is another issue entirely.

The point of these posts is to deal with the issues at the bud. Not a week or a month down the line when there's an outrage.

 

[theHandgun]

You can purchase items from stores to cook so only bartering is OOC application locked, I also agree that there should be a way to earn more credits, or item prices should be reduced even more. I think the root of the problem is that there haven't been many shifts lately and it takes a long time to earn some credits so people can't really spend their money at the moment. I believe the intention was to prevent people from earning credits by just being online but working for it.

 

[Madcombat]

Did you read the initial post? The problem is that you have essentially NOT ONE- BUT TWO skills locked to players because they need a permit- that they need to apply for OOCly. Cooking requires barter to obtain the necessary ingredients for cooking, let alone the tools. Not only that, but none of these businesses are going to get any profits because rations give you squat when it comes to credits as RAD-X pointed out. Vending machines sell breen water for 8, and other drinks are exponentially more expensive from them. Sure, you can buy them from the businesses but those prices aren't much better for either side(Breen watter, iirc, is around 3-4 credits. Meaning they'd need to sell it for at the very least five credits for a one-credit profit)

Sure, we can all go to a pub or diner and have a drink. Enjoy the roleplay. But a purchase for food/drink items is most def a logical choice because you have four hours of drainage on those meters until your next ration- and the items provided in normal rations don't satisfy. Ontop of that, I've been keeping an eye on the skills bar and maybe it's a glitch- I don't know yet- but your gained EXP appears to be draining/deteriorating. Mine dropped from 8 to 3.9(Didn't die in this timeframe) but then it jumped back up after I had my next ration to 5.4....

Meaning there are plenty of incentives for a working economy that allows players to have freedom of choice. Also to remind you that a shop owner was arrested today and his store closed temporarily for petty reasons by CPs apparently- Which is another issue entirely.

The point of these posts is to deal with the issues at the bud. Not a week or a month down the line when there's an outrage.

Straight up this.

These arent hypotheticals either- these are literally the systems in play.

I mean fuck dude, 8 credits for water when a ration contains 10 credits and a work cycle (If they happen) rewards 15 credits.

You've got a litteral situation where shops cant make money because NO ONE CAN SPEND MONEY and so those businesses are getting their blood litterally sucked out of them.

Not only that, keeping businesses in the hands of a very few select players is no way to go about these, especially when people can't be on 24/7.

Should there be key businesses? Yes.
Should we restrict players? No.

 

[NicoleKidman69]

Straight up this.

These arent hypotheticals either- these are literally the systems in play.

I mean fuck dude, 8 credits for water when a ration contains 10 credits and a work cycle (If they happen) rewards 15 credits.

You've got a litteral situation where shops cant make money because NO ONE CAN SPEND MONEY and so those businesses are getting their blood litterally sucked out of them.

Not only that, keeping businesses in the hands of a very few select players is no way to go about these, especially when people can't be on 24/7.

Should there be key businesses? Yes.
Should we restrict players? No.

The whole 'perma-shop' system would be entirely fine (most communities use the idea for a good reason as it makes RP hubs for folks) if credits weren't massively out of whack and the skill system didn't literally necessitate using it - on top of the fact you can't pay your workers or make credits because nobody can make credits.

This is a core, key part of the entire system. This is something that should have been sussed out long before anything else.

This isn't even lazy, its baffling. How do you miss something like this? And it isn't even that easy to change because everything is linked through the skill system and hard-coded server mechanics rather than roleplay-based systems. In that case you could be more forgiving; its easier to change. This isn't.

 

[registry: brush him]

I've been in this server for a long time, and I think I complain about shit like this more than anyone else does. The main problem is that some of the changes you guys are proposing are very difficult to implement - and by very dificult to implement, I mean it would require time, effort, and planning that the staff team, understandably, do not have.

It also relies on them agreeing that these changes must happen - convincing so many people who have already made up their minds is quite challenging. But it is possible.

Anyway, yeah, I agree. I think we should stop gatekeeping skills, especially Barter, described as one of the most tangentially vital skills in this server's market. If the server's economy hasn't even been fleshed out yet, there's a big problem. A very very big problem.

 

[theHandgun]

Do you guys even know what bartering skill is?

 

[Imperator RAD-X]

To mention - turns out the prices have changed and the server needs a restart for that to change in real time. Rest is up to the CCA and leads to figure out. It's also not gate-kept, just contact the CCA and get a permit. That's it from what I've been informed by Atle & Rob.