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Changing Metagame Rules

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TRL

Radio Bob Approved
Joined
Mar 16, 2022
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133
Hi there, TRL here.
I'll keep it short and sweet here by saying that Willard Network's current rules on metagaming are bad. They aren't helpful, prevent any sort of malicious behavior, and produce more work for staff members themselves by policing behavior that doesn't need to be policed.

The current system as it stands prevents players from coordinating any sort of roleplay through Out-Of-Character means. And while at first glance that may seem beneficial, the problem lies in how orthodox their enforcement of that rule actually is.

- If you have contacted someone over discord asking them when they'd be on, or that you'd be online at a certain time to roleplay, that would count as metagaming.
- If you tried to work around timezone differences and trying to organize a date to play together, this would be metagaming.
- If you contact someone to conduct roleplay and state your at a spot to meet with them to RP, you are metagaming.
From my experiences roleplaying, metagaming rules have been put in place to prevent malicious actions from occurring, such as disseminating a player characters identity to ruin their well-maintained alter-ego, or perhaps trying to rally your allies at an individual location to commit a hostile action against someone. Never in my life have I actually had been told that actually trying to coordinate roleplay was against the rules until now. Therefore, I propose a rule change. We should change:

Metagame - The act of using Out-Of-Character info to your own advantage In-Character OR relaying/leaking In-Character info into an Out-Of-Character space like Discord or Steam.

To:

Metagame - The act of using Out-Of-Character info to your own advantage In-Character with there being no realistic way for characters or players to acquire said information.

It's a very simple and non-intrusive change to the rules that prevents people who are simply trying to roleplay and try to create interesting stories through the medium without actually allowing malicious individuals from using the system to wantonly metagame critical information. After all, a citizen would know that their malignant friend would most likely be hanging around the NPZ, and so simply informing them provides no change other than adding convenience and speeding up the process of roleplaying. For examples of other servers that do this, I will link a few popular servers from different mediums that have this same interpretation of the rules. They are all serious RP servers that actively have or have had large playerbases similar to the size of Willard Networks.

https://projectzomboidroleplay.com/rules/
https://www.lordofthecraft.net/rules/

I would like to hear what other players on the server actually have to say about this, as I see that it's kind of an overlooked rule by the looks of it. I'll be checking the comments and answering any questions others may have on scenarios or ways this rule could be abused, thank you! :)
 
If you have contacted someone over discord asking them when they'd be on, or that you'd be online at a certain time to roleplay, that would count as metagaming.
False.
If you tried to work around timezone differences and trying to organize a date to play together, this would be metagaming.
False.
If you contact someone to conduct roleplay and state your at a spot to meet with them to RP, you are metagaming.
True.



What you're trying to do now is try to turn yourself into the victim because your metagame ban appeal got denied. That's the real reason you've made this thread.

We're not changing the ruleset regarding metagame. It's pretty clear what's defined as metagame and metabait already. If you can't be bothered to talk to people in-character to exchange in-character information, then don't do it.

Regardless, I'll leave this thread open for a little bit so others can discuss. Maybe there's a chance some actual insightful discussion may happen anyway.
 
I will say I find it a little silly that ANY IC information shared in an OOC manner falls under the metagame category. I think there should be a stipulation, where only information that can harm or otherwise alter the state of gameplay is punishable.

If you reveal sensitive information about a character's alignment (they are a rebel plant/ informant for the combine, stuff like that) and it's not already common knowledge IC. Saying "Don Lorenzo is a rebel character" is not sensitive, because everyone knows that already. He was anti-citizen, BOLd, and showed his face fully in the sewers). Where as saying.. idk, Elias Siemens is actually a super deep rebel plant would BE HEAVY metagame, because he is the DA and therefore if it were true, knowing that would change how everyone RPed across the server, with him and otherwise. Giving away metabase LOCATIONS should not be metagame, as if you try to go there you'll just get told no OOC, but if you give away PASSWORDS, that should count as metagame. People can lie in character and say "I was given the passwords, look!" and start opening things, which can in-turn cause problems.
Also, if information is shared that literally can not alter the gameplay state whatsoever, it should not be counted as metagame. If I tell you "Dave McAllen was eaten by a headcrab live on TV, pretty crazy right?" in Discord, although I am sharing sensitive information about a character that may not be common knowledge, I would argue this doesn't matter. This is subject to any amount of misinterpretation, doubt, etc. as you would experience from an IC conversation. You don't know or share anything except that in which you directly experienced, or were told happened. On top of that, even with this knowledge that you didn't get IC, what are you going to do with it? You know they are dead.. okay? And?
On the contrary, if you said, "Yeah Dave McAllen told me in DMs that his char was MMRd and sent to OCR, then returned and is actually now playing as Elias Siemens, the DA!! Holy shit woah!!" that would be complete metagame because this actually influences the server.

I realize much of this is subject to a case by case basis. You don't know 100% that the info you share can not be deemed "un-meta-able". So I get that part; so the idea is only share information that is relevant to a dispute or topic behind it. There is definitely gray areas here, but you shouldn't get banned for certain things that I have seen people get banned for. I am not saying this thread is the instance of that, to clarify.
 
the real problem is moving discord stuff to forums

can we stop this dumbshittery please, no one wants to use the forums to do reports or just @ ing people to hop on so they can rp with them
 
You are not allowed to sit in voice chats. Staff can do it, also roleplayers who are certified and good. Like the Krah. Because if you play for over eight hours, all of that has to be in the silence of your room or office. That’s right, feel bad for playing HL2.

Generally, each player should strive to reduce how much they talk about out of character, there will times when people slip up because they’re proud, jealous, excited, or whatever.

It is not a good thing because you will ruin the enjoyment/experience of organic and authentic reactions. As a player, it should be your responsibility to preserve that for everyone.

There needs to be a differentiation between malicious behavior, and simple discussion about things. It should be in the best interest of every player to not discuss sensitive things that may ruin the development of a narrative.

There is also a double standard that the forums are accepted means or grey areas to conduct IC information OOC. Figure that out. I think it’s a bit funny that an entire group of rebels just got banned for coordination, when the civil protection who objectively did the same things over relays for the last year have just gone partially among a slap of the wrist and warning/removal of the ability.
 
Staff can do it
Staff has voice channels they can utilize while moderating the server to communicate far more effectively than staff text-chat would allow them. This only applies to administrative duties and is not done during in-character roleplay. These voice channels are used for meetings, event coordination, and all forms of managerial discussion. They are NOT meant for use during roleplay and someone is hardly ever playing a character while in said VC, because it's impossible to immerse yourself in any form of roleplay while there are five other people talking to you simultaneously. They know this, you know this. We all know this. Or so I hope.
Like the Krah
No. This particular rebel group does not use a VC to metagame. They have had a VC that was (very blatantly) satirically called 'IC Radio Comms' and was publicly visible specifically so people could see the joke. This VC was designed for and used exclusively for the players to play CSGO and other cooperative games with each other without necessitating them to create or join a separate Discord for it.
I think it’s a bit funny that an entire group of rebels just got banned for coordination, when the civil protection who objectively did the same things over relays for the last year have just gone partially among a slap of the wrist and warning/removal of the ability.
The rebels that got banned for metagaming were banned because they used OOC communications to discuss ongoing IC events including but not limited to where their characters would meet up and whether or not they successfully completed an argument. To compare this to relays is outright disingenuous because that's a different thing entirely. Nobody, including rebels, got banned for using the relays we all used up until shortly. This argument would only make sense if we banned a collective group of rebels for talking over their rebel relay but not banned Civil Protection for using their relay, which does not actually exist. I don't know where you got that idea from, but Civil Protection hasn't had a relay/pager since July 2023. There's no double standard here.
 
Hey, I just want to say that I am perfectly fine with my ban, and this isnt a discussion or post to try and get it removed. The intent is to have a civil dicussion regarding the rule iself and to see what the wider community thinks of it. And to be fair @Neonity , you did originally ban me for those exact things and cited them in the private ban appeal I made. I feel like ive been polite with you recently, and in turn you've been nothing but accusatory towards me in my intents.

Please stop doing that. I am not being facetious here- nor was I at any point prior to talking with you. If you have a problem with me personally we can hash it out in dms, and if its just a communication error then I'll just live and let live. Otherwise?

Stop putting words in my mouth and trying to project your own beliefs onto my actions. Its incredibly rude.

Anyways to address the conversation, @Neonity do you have any input about the proposal? I want to hear why you feel this way to be honest, im interested!
 
Staff has voice channels they can utilize while moderating the server to communicate far more effectively than staff text-chat would allow them. This only applies to administrative duties and is not done during in-character roleplay. These voice channels are used for meetings, event coordination, and all forms of managerial discussion. They are NOT meant for use during roleplay and someone is hardly ever playing a character while in said VC, because it's impossible to immerse yourself in any form of roleplay while there are five other people talking to you simultaneously. They know this, you know this. We all know this. Or so I hope.

No. This particular rebel group does not use a VC to metagame. They have had a VC that was (very blatantly) satirically called 'IC Radio Comms' and was publicly visible specifically so people could see the joke. This VC was designed for and used exclusively for the players to play CSGO and other cooperative games with each other without necessitating them to create or join a separate Discord for it.

The rebels that got banned for metagaming were banned because they used OOC communications to discuss ongoing IC events including but not limited to where their characters would meet up and whether or not they successfully completed an argument. To compare this to relays is outright disingenuous because that's a different thing entirely. Nobody, including rebels, got banned for using the relays we all used up until shortly. This argument would only make sense if we banned a collective group of rebels for talking over their rebel relay but not banned Civil Protection for using their relay, which does not actually exist. I don't know where you got that idea from, but Civil Protection hasn't had a relay/pager since July 2023. There's no double standard here.
None of my points were particularly jabs or arguments at/with anyone in particular, just blunt observations I've collected from a player's perspective. Thanks for the clarifications.
 
To me @Neonity , it seems that you commonly ban or warn people for things that just aren't worth the hassle. I've heard and even witnessed some things myself, such as the time you quite literally warned someone for the usage of "Bruh" during a roleplay. Is this a way to keep activity and make sure you don't lose your position? Because last time I checked, none of you admins actually get paid for this. Neonity, I hope to see better from your work in the future, because many of the people I have met do not like your performance as an administrator of Willards, and you're proving quite the bad example for you and the server. From what I've seen, you just block all of that out, rather than actually using it to perform better.
This is more of a complaint, I'm aware. However, your performance is horrible and I don't know how anybody especially your superiors hasn't mentioned this.

Might get banned for this. Pray for me boys.
 
Hey all, just got back from work and I'm gonna just go through the replies and help keep the conversation going :P
I will say I find it a little silly that ANY IC information shared in an OOC manner falls under the metagame category. I think there should be a stipulation, where only information that can harm or otherwise alter the state of gameplay is punishable.

If you reveal sensitive information about a character's alignment (they are a rebel plant/ informant for the combine, stuff like that) and it's not already common knowledge IC. Saying "Don Lorenzo is a rebel character" is not sensitive, because everyone knows that already. He was anti-citizen, BOLd, and showed his face fully in the sewers). Where as saying.. idk, Elias Siemens is actually a super deep rebel plant would BE HEAVY metagame, because he is the DA and therefore if it were true, knowing that would change how everyone RPed across the server, with him and otherwise. Giving away metabase LOCATIONS should not be metagame, as if you try to go there you'll just get told no OOC, but if you give away PASSWORDS, that should count as metagame. People can lie in character and say "I was given the passwords, look!" and start opening things, which can in-turn cause problems.
Also, if information is shared that literally can not alter the gameplay state whatsoever, it should not be counted as metagame. If I tell you "Dave McAllen was eaten by a headcrab live on TV, pretty crazy right?" in Discord, although I am sharing sensitive information about a character that may not be common knowledge, I would argue this doesn't matter. This is subject to any amount of misinterpretation, doubt, etc. as you would experience from an IC conversation. You don't know or share anything except that in which you directly experienced, or were told happened. On top of that, even with this knowledge that you didn't get IC, what are you going to do with it? You know they are dead.. okay? And?
On the contrary, if you said, "Yeah Dave McAllen told me in DMs that his char was MMRd and sent to OCR, then returned and is actually now playing as Elias Siemens, the DA!! Holy shit woah!!" that would be complete metagame because this actually influences the server.

I realize much of this is subject to a case by case basis. You don't know 100% that the info you share can not be deemed "un-meta-able". So I get that part; so the idea is only share information that is relevant to a dispute or topic behind it. There is definitely gray areas here, but you shouldn't get banned for certain things that I have seen people get banned for. I am not saying this thread is the instance of that, to clarify.

My thoughts exactly. I think that a rule with no victim isn't really a rule worth enforcing. While I'm unsure about the whole metabase thing (I'm not really privvy to the rules that regard that as of yet), I think that information that doesn't alter the gameplay state is a perfectly fine thing to disseminate for the sake of convenience. For me, at least, it's super beneficial to just hang out and RP with my friends, or letting them know I'm AFK so they know not to look for me. Obviously going out and trying to ruin somebody else's day or hijack an otherwise fair hostile encounter with metagame should be against the rules, but if it's just two dudes trying to chill- well, let them chill!
False.

False.


True.




What you're trying to do now is try to turn yourself into the victim because your metagame ban appeal got denied. That's the real reason you've made this thread.

We're not changing the ruleset regarding metagame. It's pretty clear what's defined as metagame and metabait already. If you can't be bothered to talk to people in-character to exchange in-character information, then don't do it.

Regardless, I'll leave this thread open for a little bit so others can discuss. Maybe there's a chance some actual insightful discussion may happen anyway.

I already talked about this a bit on mobile beforehand so I won't get super deep into it, but am I allowed to show the contents of the ban appeal publicly? While it's not my intention to make this specifically about me, if the argument is to be factored in I believe the report will show that I was originally banned for those three things having been done :/
Let's make it where if you're on willard you can't tab out of your game and all alternate tabs are closed, as if it was an exam.

I went to culinary school specifically to avoid ACT exams sir please no 😭
You are not allowed to sit in voice chats. Staff can do it, also roleplayers who are certified and good. Like the Krah. Because if you play for over eight hours, all of that has to be in the silence of your room or office. That’s right, feel bad for playing HL2.

Generally, each player should strive to reduce how much they talk about out of character, there will times when people slip up because they’re proud, jealous, excited, or whatever.

It is not a good thing because you will ruin the enjoyment/experience of organic and authentic reactions. As a player, it should be your responsibility to preserve that for everyone.

There needs to be a differentiation between malicious behavior, and simple discussion about things. It should be in the best interest of every player to not discuss sensitive things that may ruin the development of a narrative.

There is also a double standard that the forums are accepted means or grey areas to conduct IC information OOC. Figure that out. I think it’s a bit funny that an entire group of rebels just got banned for coordination, when the civil protection who objectively did the same things over relays for the last year have just gone partially among a slap of the wrist and warning/removal of the ability.

I'm new. I've actually only been here for 2 weeks and already I'm banned for a month LOL. But yeah I can agree with your points. As a player its kind of on us to make sure we aren't abusing systems put in place for our benefit, now there will always be that guy who tries to ruin it, but these people are pretty easily sussed out and are dealt with from my experience on roleplay servers. I think it'd be pretty easy to define malicious behavior. Keep in mind Willard's metagame rules are the exception to a standard adopted by most other servers, both in GMod and in other videogames. I'm not aware of any double standard between CPs and Rebels though. Civilian supremacy anyone?
To me @Neonity , it seems that you commonly ban or warn people for things that just aren't worth the hassle. I've heard and even witnessed some things myself, such as the time you quite literally warned someone for the usage of "Bruh" during a roleplay. Is this a way to keep activity and make sure you don't lose your position? Because last time I checked, none of you admins actually get paid for this. Neonity, I hope to see better from your work in the future, because many of the people I have met do not like your performance as an administrator of Willards, and you're proving quite the bad example for you and the server. From what I've seen, you just block all of that out, rather than actually using it to perform better.
This is more of a complaint, I'm aware. However, your performance is horrible and I don't know how anybody especially your superiors hasn't mentioned this.

Might get banned for this. Pray for me boys.

Trust me, I 100% get your frustration (haha) , but try to be a bit more civil please.. Nobody has ever listened to someone trying to put them down :) God knows I wouldn't!
Off topic.
How hard does this go?


It goes hard. Have you heard of Karolina Cicha's work? You seem like somebody who would like it:
 
Hey all, just got back from work and I'm gonna just go through the replies and help keep the conversation going :p


My thoughts exactly. I think that a rule with no victim isn't really a rule worth enforcing. While I'm unsure about the whole metabase thing (I'm not really privvy to the rules that regard that as of yet), I think that information that doesn't alter the gameplay state is a perfectly fine thing to disseminate for the sake of convenience. For me, at least, it's super beneficial to just hang out and RP with my friends, or letting them know I'm AFK so they know not to look for me. Obviously going out and trying to ruin somebody else's day or hijack an otherwise fair hostile encounter with metagame should be against the rules, but if it's just two dudes trying to chill- well, let them chill!


I already talked about this a bit on mobile beforehand so I won't get super deep into it, but am I allowed to show the contents of the ban appeal publicly? While it's not my intention to make this specifically about me, if the argument is to be factored in I believe the report will show that I was originally banned for those three things having been done :/


I went to culinary school specifically to avoid ACT exams sir please no 😭


I'm new. I've actually only been here for 2 weeks and already I'm banned for a month LOL. But yeah I can agree with your points. As a player its kind of on us to make sure we aren't abusing systems put in place for our benefit, now there will always be that guy who tries to ruin it, but these people are pretty easily sussed out and are dealt with from my experience on roleplay servers. I think it'd be pretty easy to define malicious behavior. Keep in mind Willard's metagame rules are the exception to a standard adopted by most other servers, both in GMod and in other videogames. I'm not aware of any double standard between CPs and Rebels though. Civilian supremacy anyone?


Trust me, I 100% get your frustration (haha) , but try to be a bit more civil please.. Nobody has ever listened to someone trying to put them down :) God knows I wouldn't!


It goes hard. Have you heard of Karolina Cicha's work? You seem like somebody who would like it:

we love tatar music :)
 
To me @Neonity , it seems that you commonly ban or warn people for things that just aren't worth the hassle. I've heard and even witnessed some things myself, such as the time you quite literally warned someone for the usage of "Bruh" during a roleplay. Is this a way to keep activity and make sure you don't lose your position? Because last time I checked, none of you admins actually get paid for this. Neonity, I hope to see better from your work in the future, because many of the people I have met do not like your performance as an administrator of Willards, and you're proving quite the bad example for you and the server. From what I've seen, you just block all of that out, rather than actually using it to perform better.
This is more of a complaint, I'm aware. However, your performance is horrible and I don't know how anybody especially your superiors hasn't mentioned this.

Might get banned for this. Pray for me boys.
Yeah, I wanna chime in on this a touch.

A lot of things might seem inconsequential to you, but in the grand scheme of things, they break people's immersion big time. Using modern slang, such as "Bruh", can be very immersion breaking for some given the setting of the server. Considering how this is an RP server, maintaining immersion is our top priority. So, if someone is coming in saying stuff like that IC, they will be warned to stop, and I do think that is a reasonable thing to do.

Also, I can promise you that generating a bunch of warns & bans is not an activity requirement for admins. The main thing we end up looking at is things like playtime, in game ticket responses, as well as forums activities for those whom sit in roles which are primarily on the forums (PK appeals, for example), and a few other metrics. None of those things include how many bans/warns were made by X.
 
Metagame - The act of using Out-Of-Character info to your own advantage In-Character OR relaying/leaking In-Character info into an Out-Of-Character space like Discord or Steam.

To:

Metagame - The act of using Out-Of-Character info to your own advantage In-Character with there being no realistic way for characters or players to acquire said information.

It's a very simple and non-intrusive change to the rules that prevents people who are simply trying to roleplay and try to create interesting stories through the medium without actually allowing malicious individuals from using the system to wantonly metagame critical information. After all, a citizen would know that their malignant friend would most likely be hanging around the NPZ, and so simply informing them provides no change other than adding convenience and speeding up the process of roleplaying. For examples of other servers that do this, I will link a few popular servers from different mediums that have this same interpretation of the rules. They are all serious RP servers that actively have or have had large playerbases similar to the size of Willard Networks.
The issue here is the nature of things such as rules in a game where you can conceivably do anything.

This sort of hinges upon something you mentioned above: 'using the system to wantonly metagame critical information'. What constitutes 'critical information'? Try as you might, I don't think that you can necessarily nail down a definition that would fit every possible scenario because its impossible. There will always be edge cases, and exceptions, and possibilities that you could never even concieve of where someone might abuse such a thing. Infinite possibilities, in fact. As someone who's played this gamemode for over a decade, I can garuntee you that even the tiniest things can easily lead to a PK.

This is a big server, and it is completely designed around IC interaction. Information is important. Even something as mundane as your current location could be considered important in certain situations. Therefore, we say that any IC info should not cross the OOC boundary in any way, and that if it does, its considered metagame. That is why our rules currently state this.
 
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