The Agreed Perspective and its role in the Economy.

[Gutsy]

Topic/subject: The Agreed Perspective and it's role in the Economy.
Whom it may concern: Server Directors
Summary: Server shut down for 2 days a week not seeming to help with Burnout so much, and causes more stress "Milestones" to make before AP happens in order for sustainability.
In depth analysis of the issue: The Server is shut down for 2 days a week, in theory fantastic it gives people a break. But we're still seeing staff members burn out anyway. Furthermore, those of us that wait to grind until low-pop because they're busy Roleplaying all day have even less time between weekends to prepare yourself and you feel pressured to choose between Roleplay and the Grind. This issue is further exasperated by the server going down for 2 weeks for the Short Story event so people can focus on it, and with the GOI update coming up as well time is clicking on the clock of the economy.
Suggestion for improvement:
Reduce AP to 1 day, or remove it entirely but warn players that Events will not be held on these days. If staff don't want to play the server to recover, they don't need to. But you don't need to shut down the server for everyone because of that. It puts pressure on individuals like myself who have to work to upkeep a rebel cell between events and expeditions.

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[Killian]

Remove it, shorten it, remove it, make it so that it's shut down every OTHER week, or remove it. I just wanna passiveRP bro

 

[Gutsy]

might be easy to do if you don't have a bigger role to play on the server but some positions FORCE you to be active or else you get booted. i got "removed" from OTA once or twice on here because i didn't play as much as they wanted me to. that doesn't include activity checks or (if you're staff) mandatory meetings or anything like that.

it's even worse with high demand factions/roles with limited slots because you know if you get kicked out there's a high chance you won't be allowed back in for a while

and you can only fill out so many LOAs before you get the inevitable "hey you've been on LOA 7 times in the past 4 months maybe you should step down" DM from whomever your "superior" might be

it may not be as strict as i remember it but i remember going through OTA applications back in late 2021/early 2022 and anyone who didn't have like 25-30+ hours a WEEK was seen as inactive

Was AP in place when you got removed from OTA for inactivity?

 

[verTix]

Was AP in place when you got removed from OTA for inactivity?

nope

 

[Gutsy]

nope

Do you think AP would of helped with keeping the OTA whitelist?

 

[verTix]

Do you think AP would of helped with keeping the OTA whitelist?

maybe. but like I said it’s a temporary solution and only lengthens the amount of time before burnout occurs anyway.

I think the real solution is somewhere in the middle, where you don’t have to file paperwork every time you want to take a break for longer than a week but you still have to communicate your intentions with your faction lead or staff manager or whomever.

This is a Gmod server. The incentive to play should be enjoyment, not obligation. Some roles make this harder to accomplish than others, but a lot of times a quick discord conversation can get someone on when necessary or solve a problem without even having someone join.

Spoiler: mostly unrelated but something that still pisses me off

Officiating every process and corporatizing the structure (for staff) really does make it feel more like working a job I imagine.

Admins shouldn’t have to write a 12 page thesis statement and schedule 3 meetings to justify a change they want to make unless it’s massive like a wipe or a map change.

And I do understand the dilemma around player count and how an approach like this would not only lower it but make the city feel more dead in the process. That’s why a 24/5 or even 24/4 schedule is so useful because you help prevent burnout AND create a small sense of urgency to play when the server is actually up.

 

[Zebra]

might be easy to do if you don't have a bigger role to play on the server but some positions FORCE you to be active or else you get booted. i got "removed" from OTA once or twice on here because i didn't play as much as they wanted me to. that doesn't include activity checks or (if you're staff) mandatory meetings or anything like that.

it's even worse with high demand factions/roles with limited slots because you know if you get kicked out there's a high chance you won't be allowed back in for a while

and you can only fill out so many LOAs before you get the inevitable "hey you've been on LOA 7 times in the past 4 months maybe you should step down" DM from whomever your "superior" might be

it may not be as strict as i remember it but i remember going through OTA applications back in late 2021/early 2022 and anyone who didn't have like 25-30+ hours a WEEK was seen as inactive

I can understand that- but at the same time. There should be a disclaimer "Hey have a fill in if you need to go on LOA" Or "You need to be active x amount of time btw" If there are disclaimers like these, then it's really just a scenario of you should probably have stepped down to avoid removal if you weren't going to be as active.

 

[George]

server

 

[Fentsoldier153]

YEAHS!!!! I NEED THE TRASHBAGS!! YEDAHH!!! REMOVE IT!!! YEAH!! FUCK YEAH!!!

 

[Astro]

it may not be as strict as i remember it but i remember going through OTA applications back in late 2021/early 2022 and anyone who didn't have like 25-30+ hours a WEEK was seen as inactive

I know this doesn’t relate to the thread in the slightest, but I felt like I should comment on this as a current co-lead.

We don’t care how many hours you can put out on the server. As long as you’re attending events/deployments semi-regularly, and have a character that you somewhat play outside OTA, you’re fine.

 

[verTix]

I know this doesn’t relate to the thread in the slightest, but I felt like I should comment on this as a current co-lead.

We don’t care how many hours you can put out on the server. As long as you’re attending events/deployments semi-regularly, and have a character that you somewhat play outside OTA, you’re fine.

that's good. i don't hold any grudges anyway; i'm the one that resigned after i started working irl. i just wanted to use it as an example of how servers like this operate and how quickly it can go from "fun" to "job" and the concerns associated with going on LOA or leaving

 

[Rebel RP Philosopher]

that's good. i don't hold any grudges anyway; i'm the one that resigned after i started working irl. i just wanted to use it as an example of how servers like this operate and how quickly it can go from "fun" to "job" and the concerns associated with going on LOA or leaving

People are aimless when discussing about how to make an engaging and fair economy, particularly when they lack knowledge of instruments in measuring what is fair.

Furthermore, i've yet had my question answered by anyone on for instance how many shotcops per day is the status quo that the majority wants? My best bet is that most actually don't care. However, the issue of the economy is echoed through loud voices over and over again, which makes it perhaps the most repeated topic on this forum.

The only sense I can have is that what makes an economy good is by revamping it with overhauls, regardless how ambiguous they made be, to make it feel different and shrouded with lack of information since people are drawn to figuring things out on their own and eventually finding how it is broken as curious as they are.

 

[Gutsy]

People are aimless when discussing about how to make an engaging and fair economy, particularly when they lack knowledge of instruments in measuring what is fair.

Furthermore, i've yet had my question answered by anyone on for instance how many shotcops per day is the status quo that the majority wants? My best bet is that most actually don't care. However, the issue of the economy is echoed through loud voices over and over again, which makes it perhaps the most repeated topic on this forum.

The only sense I can have is that what makes an economy good is by revamping it with overhauls, regardless how ambiguous they made be, to make it feel different and shrouded with lack of information since people are drawn to figuring things out on their own and eventually finding how it is broken as curious as they are.

I get this as well. And I hear that goi will fix everything but to be honest looking at the plans it looks more of the same really. Mostly focuses on the combine with some very minor tweeks to rebel. Matter of fact it looks like upkeep resources like ammo and medical supplies will be even harder to acquire.

 

[verTix]

People are aimless when discussing about how to make an engaging and fair economy, particularly when they lack knowledge of instruments in measuring what is fair.

Furthermore, i've yet had my question answered by anyone on for instance how many shotcops per day is the status quo that the majority wants? My best bet is that most actually don't care. However, the issue of the economy is echoed through loud voices over and over again, which makes it perhaps the most repeated topic on this forum.

The only sense I can have is that what makes an economy good is by revamping it with overhauls, regardless how ambiguous they made be, to make it feel different and shrouded with lack of information since people are drawn to figuring things out on their own and eventually finding how it is broken as curious as they are.

i guess i can kind of see the argument of the "agreed perspective" and its impact on forcing people to grind instead of RP

frankly, if players feel like they need to grind for something instead of roleplay for it, that's indicative of bad players or bad game design. (or both)

i understand that it provides a needed gameplay loop but a lot of the people that grind for trash spawns don't usually RP that much anyway and i've always considered those people to be 50% player character 50% NPC character

that being said, if the systems in place actually make grinding for scripts a requirement, that is bad game design

in regards to the economy at large...

ignoring AP for a minute, an incredibly simple way to "soft-reset" the economy would be to have the combine start heavily cracking down on the black market and resistance underground trading. staff could have off-map events for both combine and rebels without ever actually pitting the players against one another (use event actors). have the combine players raid off-map resistance underground outposts and have the rebel players clear new (albeit less efficient) trading routes for future black markets

this would allow for a somewhat organic-feeling shift to a more bottlenecked economy by allowing players the ability to influence the outcome somewhat.

if staff are afraid of the implications of "hamfisting" an economy change like this with a series of "railroaded" events, why? it's your server to run; if you've crunched the numbers and you think that a change like this would help, just make the change and give the players some popcorn-eating faux storyline to get through the transition from point A to point B

 

[Gutsy]

i guess i can kind of see the argument of the "agreed perspective" and its impact on forcing people to grind instead of RP

frankly, if players feel like they need to grind for something instead of roleplay for it, that's indicative of bad players or bad game design. (or both)

i understand that it provides a needed gameplay loop but a lot of the people that grind for trash spawns don't usually RP that much anyway and i've always considered those people to be 50% player character 50% NPC character

that being said, if the systems in place actually make grinding for scripts a requirement, that is bad game design

in regards to the economy at large...

ignoring AP for a minute, an incredibly simple way to "soft-reset" the economy would be to have the combine start heavily cracking down on the black market and resistance underground trading. staff could have off-map events for both combine and rebels without ever actually pitting the players against one another (use event actors). have the combine players raid off-map resistance underground outposts and have the rebel players clear new (albeit less efficient) trading routes for future black markets

this would allow for a somewhat organic-feeling shift to a more bottlenecked economy by allowing players the ability to influence the outcome somewhat.

if staff are afraid of the implications of "hamfisting" an economy change like this with a series of "railroaded" events, why? it's your server to run; if you've crunched the numbers and you think that a change like this would help, just make the change and give the players some popcorn-eating faux storyline to get through the transition from point A to point B

You're aware we do not currently have access to Dealers right? We havnt for a couple of weeks now. Also, how can the requirement to grind be indicative of bad players? It's one of those unfortunate things that are put in with good reason. Grind will reduce the amount of people able to just come in, pick up a gun and start shotcopping for little to no reason and treating it like COD rather then an RP server. So grind does have its place, just like Loyalists have to grind for Social Credit and even CP's have their own stuff this progression exists for a reason.

With the current system "Hamfisting" and economy change in this matter only hurts rebels, and exasperates the problem. Had a big discussion of this with about 20 or 24 rebels in the discord when I held a Rebel Rep meeting. Yes, we have crunched the numbers. But without any future HARD data on industry changes we cannot make an informed decision or reach consensus one way or the other. We can only speculate. What I am proposing is change that would help now.

 

[verTix]

You're aware we do not currently have access to Dealers right? We havnt for a couple of weeks now.

good. though i'll say that simply cutting off access isn't that interesting from a story perspective, a little artificial recession is good.

. Also, how can the requirement to grind be indicative of bad players? It's one of those unfortunate things that are put in with good reason.

the requirement to grind dissuades RP and those who spend all their time grinding do not spend their time RPing. all they provide is scripts for the economy and extra numbers on the gametracker

Grind will reduce the amount of people able to just come in, pick up a gun and start shotcopping for little to no reason and treating it like COD rather then an RP server.

so they treat it like rust instead? not a good analogy

So grind does have its place, just like Loyalists have to grind for Social Credit and even CP's have their own stuff this progression exists for a reason.

except the loyalist and cop grind both fully revolve around interacting with other players. a sewer rat can hunt for loot for a week, trade with someone for 10 minutes, and then go back to hunting loot. 90% of the time the "barter RP" is "hey got some gunpowder?" "yeah here 50 tokens" "ok" [sic]

With the current system "Hamfisting" and economy change in this matter only hurts rebels, and exasperates the problem.

i dread to think what would happen if sewer rat loot goblins had to leave the sewers to interact in the city sometimes

i don't play the server so i do genuinely want to know what problem an economic bottleneck would "exacerbate"

But without any future HARD data on industry changes we cannot make an informed decision or reach consensus one way or the other. We can only speculate. What I am proposing is change that would help now.

your focus on "the grind" is indicative of a much greater core issue. a core gameplay loop is a good thing to have during downtime, but it should under no circumstances be a lifeline

 

[Imperator RAD-X]

So I've committed to an internalised vote within my staff team, and the demographics of the vote fell into the following areas:

The Agreed Perspective to be removed. (Open Wednesdays / Thursdays) - 7 Votes
The Agreed Perspective to be kept as is. (Keep Wednesdays / Thursdays closed) - 14 Votes
The Agreed Perspective is reduced to one day instead. (Either a Wednesday or a Thursday closed) - 12 Votes

After seeing that the AP's removal is simply put; not going to happen, I committed to a follow-up check that is split evenly between six for and against (twelve people in total, not accounting to the above but separate followup) for opening Thursdays, onward.

The AP is not going to be removed. Its original inception may have been to temp-close and run routine maintenance and not deal with low population days back in January and a few months onward - but as time went on, it turned out we were doing well against burnout with this idea. Is it to stop burnout from happening? Unfortunately not, it was always to delay it since HL2RP is a high-maintenance gamemode and that is especially inclusive with our players.

We also dedicate those two days to development and testing while pursuing other matters in the community to deal with. Lifting that has us lifting time which I feel is valuable to longer term stability - and that it's one thing:

Having breaks, through intermission, is a mature way to run a server. (For people that have never ran their own server before or co-managed one, you may not understand. I've done both and the latter has been a thing I've done for probably eight years worth of my time playing HL2RP.)

The server economy is going in another direction on the server and that is in relation to the GoI update which I had just committed testing with a few people, today. It went well, and one of the guys is putting a list together for what needs to be looked into. It also backs up the case that we dedicate the time we have to development phases and give people some room to breathe.

You can still play five out of the seven days which also includes a weekend. It's worked well with the community for ten months thus far, I don't think I want to harm us by removing the AP and creating:

* Increased burnout rates.​

* Less development testing timing and maintenance routine to be ran, leaving gaps.​

* Less expedition planning since GMs would be on the server instead of using those two days to work what they want to do.​

* Less event time planning for Short Stories and Main Server narrative team members.​

* Time no longer being dedicated into *NOT* thinking about HL2RP for a change.​

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Change is coming to the server and I'd rather have a safety net for when instances truly start to pick up.
I'd hate for the server to be open and then suddenly have to announce "We're going shut in ten minutes because maintenance" or what-not.

If you can't find the time to get on the server, then I do apologise - but changing the way things work in terms of the AP won't help you with that either, I'm afraid.

Thank you for everyone's time and effort into this thread, but this is now being archived.

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To iterate: We don't base activity levels on how many days someone needs to be on. That's crazy. We base activity levels on activity across all community platforms, not just the server. We keep logs to ensure we have something to look back on, and at the same time find out if someone needs a wellbeing check. Cheers.