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The current combat system.

  • Thread starter Thread starter JustWats
  • Start date Start date
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JustWats

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The current combat system is not enjoyable. You'll get players asking to tweak specific numbers on some of the mechanics, but it won't work.

I play Civil Protection, and I also have played Rebel for over a year. I have had 5 Rebel Characters over that timeline and all have had drastically different experiences.

I'm going to go into a little bit of a short run-down of how the combat system on this server works and then I'll move into specific points of contention and how they operate in the system individually.

Obtaining a Weapon​


A user can be rewarded, purchase, or craft a weapon. Rewards are typically the easiest route and they usually are not that rewarding because you are not expected to join instantly and be rewarded as a means to kill someone. Weapons can also be purchased, there are several mechanics for a player to obtain income. Extortion, selling, translating coupons to chips, objectives, expeditions, smuggling. This system is more time-consuming, however, it typically allows you to retain and maximize your resources. In addition, you can purchase weapons better than your ability to craft. The current levels are to make money, and the economy is in a good state. Crafting, there are several weapons to craft, and it is typically limited to things at a tier of just scrap weaponry. Crafting recently has been nerfed and many rebel players are unhappy with the level it has been reduced to. Crafted weapons are nothing special. It takes a good amount of time to obtain them, and the reality of them being effective is minimal. That is a good thing, however, creating obstacles and making them more difficult to get is not good.

Firing a Weapon​


The server utilizes a mix of ArcCW and also has some weapons that are Arc9. The weapon base has several different weapons, and we'll leave that variance of weapons for later. ArcCW overall has various configurations, it has attachments, and mechanics that are implemented. There are features like gun sway, aiming down sight, penetration of walls, rate of fire, damage values, differing ammunition types, bullet jamming times, and reload times. These are all variables that get tweaked when decisions are made with this base and balancing. I can imagine it is annoying. The firing overall is decent, although the enjoyment gets mitigated through some of the RPG systems that Willard implements. The stats system particularly draws back the experience while firing a weapon. This is something that has been ridiculed to death by rebel and cop players alike.

Systems involving a Weapon

The ballistics and impact of weapons get handled through some plugins. When you shoot a weapon in S2K here are some of the interacting features that it has to go through:

Weapon base configuration > Gun skill system > Distance damage handling > Agility dodge modifications > Critical damage handling > Damage mitigation from Armor penetration > Armor points pool > Armor repair system > Health points > Medical system > Bleedout system.


o The weapon base is not an issue, it has been tweaked and tested massively since its induction.
o Gun skill moves directly into the critical system. You get to do more damage based off factors like if you're injured and how many times you've fired your weapon at a target before.
o Distance damage has been drastically nerfed compared to before, most weapons like marksman rifles or carbines begin to have damage fall off at around 40 meters. Which is instead where they're most effective.
o Due to the agility skill, you have the chance to negate the effectiveness of bullets through dodging. This feature matters quite a bit and most of the time, becomes a factor of winning or losing that most people do not realize. If someone has 20 more speed skill points than you, they are able to dodge 40% more than you.
o The critical system is a bit weird, and due to its randomness it is difficult to detect. However, differing guns have different critical chances, and it is usually ranked by gun class, so pistol, smg, scrap, rifle, etc. These crits have been observed to do double or triple damage at differing points and do not work against the current armor system.
o Damage mitigation from armor is a newer feature. The way the armor system works, is you get a flat pool of X amount of armor points. While those armor points are active, you are able to take advantage of a weapon's penetration %. For example, a Uzi does 9 damage. If someone wears armor, they get full coverage from head-to-toe hitboxes. This means if the armor penetration is 55%, your weapon will only now do 45% damage. That means your gun now does 4 damage. You continue to do 4 damage until their armor is gone.
o The armor repair system, is easily abused and leads to drastically increase a time to kill due to the grey areas of the rules. It allows players to disengage from combat to an area where they are not contested. Repair their armor, and re-enter the fight. This essentially is recreating the same fight cyclically.
o The health points isn't really an issue. However, when working with the medical system. Your skills get reduced drastically for when your HP goes down. This isn't necessarily a bad feature and has been something that has been tested and tweaked to a currently good state.
o Medical and bleedout, there's not much to say here aside from the fact that players are able to recover from bleedout from another player healing. This isn't a bad thing, but it's worth noting due to the above.


The reason the current combat system feels bad is because of the amount of systems in place that tweak it. Predominantly, the new armor system creates a massively high time-to-kill. The most recent multi-party, massive firefight lasted either two or three hours. The armor repairs went into the triple digits. The only incapacitations from the main firefights were from well-placed grenades that go through armor. The reason the armor feels awful is because of the head-to-toe protection. You can shoot someone in the legs or the head that was completely well-flanked and clueless. An entire magazine from a UZI into the head, for them to just turn around, run away, repair their armor, and then re-engage you.

There are a few members who have spreadsheets, of several discrepancies in the guns, such as the AKM (not the scrap weapon), which does less damage then the USP per shot. Several members have conducted multiple tests with this armor system. I would like to hear from Combine and Rebel players on how they feel after it's been a few months of it's implementation.

My suggestion to immediately alleviate some of this is by adjusting the rules for using armor repairs for all parties or outright removing it in combat.
 
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I agree. I would like to see some changes added in the future. I plan to play more on my rebel, maybe I'll try out the gameplay loop of civil protection when it opens up.
 
The current combat system is not enjoyable. You'll get players asking to tweak specific numbers on some of the mechanics, but it won't work.

I play Civil Protection, and I also have played Rebel for over a year. I have had 5 Rebel Characters over that timeline and all have had drastically different experiences.

I'm going to go into a little bit of a short run-down of how the combat system on this server works and then I'll move into specific points of contention and how they operate in the system individually.

Obtaining a Weapon​


A user can be rewarded, purchase, or craft a weapon. Rewards are typically the easiest route and they usually are not that rewarding because you are not expected to join instantly and be rewarded as a means to kill someone. Weapons can also be purchased, there are several mechanics for a player to obtain income. Extortion, selling, translating coupons to chips, objectives, expeditions, smuggling. This system is more time-consuming, however, it typically allows you to retain and maximize your resources. In addition, you can purchase weapons better than your ability to craft. The current levels are to make money, and the economy is in a good state. Crafting, there are several weapons to craft, and it is typically limited to things at a tier of just scrap weaponry. Crafting recently has been nerfed and many rebel players are unhappy with the level it has been reduced to. Crafted weapons are nothing special. It takes a good amount of time to obtain them, and the reality of them being effective is minimal. That is a good thing, however, creating obstacles and making them more difficult to get is not good.

Firing a Weapon​


The server utilizes a mix of ArcCW and also has some weapons that are Arc9. The weapon base has several different weapons, and we'll leave that variance of weapons for later. ArcCW overall has various configurations, it has attachments, and mechanics that are implemented. There are features like gun sway, aiming down sight, penetration of walls, rate of fire, damage values, differing ammunition types, bullet jamming times, and reload times. These are all variables that get tweaked when decisions are made with this base and balancing. I can imagine it is annoying. The firing overall is decent, although the enjoyment gets mitigated through some of the RPG systems that Willard implements. The stats system particularly draws back the experience while firing a weapon. This is something that has been ridiculed to death by rebel and cop players alike.

Systems involving a Weapon

The ballistics and impact of weapons get handled through some plugins. When you shoot a weapon in S2K here are some of the interacting features that it has to go through:

Weapon base configuration > Gun skill system > Distance damage handling > Agility dodge modifications > Critical damage handling > Damage mitigation from Armor penetration > Armor points pool > Armor repair system > Health points > Medical system > Bleedout system.


o The weapon base is not an issue, it has been tweaked and tested massively since its induction.
o Gun skill moves directly into the critical system. You get to do more damage based off factors like if you're injured and how many times you've fired your weapon at a target before.
o Distance damage has been drastically nerfed compared to before, most weapons like marksman rifles or carbines begin to have damage fall off at around 40 meters. Which is instead where they're most effective.
o Due to the agility skill, you have the chance to negate the effectiveness of bullets through dodging. This feature matters quite a bit and most of the time, becomes a factor of winning or losing that most people do not realize. If someone has 20 more speed skill points than you, they are able to dodge 40% more than you.
o The critical system is a bit weird, and due to its randomness it is difficult to detect. However, differing guns have different critical chances, and it is usually ranked by gun class, so pistol, smg, scrap, rifle, etc. These crits have been observed to do double or triple damage at differing points and do not work against the current armor system.
o Damage mitigation from armor is a newer feature. The way the armor system works, is you get a flat pool of X amount of armor points. While those armor points are active, you are able to take advantage of a weapon's penetration %. For example, a Uzi does 9 damage. If someone wears armor, they get full coverage from head-to-toe hitboxes. This means if the armor penetration is 55%, your weapon will only now do 45% damage. That means your gun now does 4 damage. You continue to do 4 damage until their armor is gone.
o The armor repair system, is easily abused and leads to drastically increase a time to kill due to the grey areas of the rules. It allows players to disengage from combat to an area where they are not contested. Repair their armor, and re-enter the fight. This essentially is recreating the same fight cyclically.
o The health points isn't really an issue. However, when working with the medical system. Your skills get reduced drastically for when your HP goes down. This isn't necessarily a bad feature and has been something that has been tested and tweaked to a currently good state.
o Medical and bleedout, there's not much to say here aside from the fact that players are able to recover from bleedout from another player healing. This isn't a bad thing, but it's worth noting due to the above.


The reason the current combat system feels bad is because of the amount of systems in place that tweak it. Predominantly, the new armor system creates a massively high time-to-kill. The most recent multi-party, massive firefight lasted either two or three hours. The armor repairs went into the triple digits. The only incapacitations from the main firefights were from well-placed grenades that go through armor. The reason the armor feels awful is because of the head-to-toe protection. You can shoot someone in the legs or the head that was completely well-flanked and clueless. An entire magazine from a UZI into the head, for them to just turn around, run away, repair their armor, and then re-engage you.

There are a few members who have spreadsheets, of several discrepancies in the guns, such as the AKM (not the scrap weapon), which does less damage then the USP per shot. Several members have conducted multiple tests with this armor system. I would like to hear from Combine and Rebel players on how they feel after it's been a few months of it's implementation.

My suggestion to immediately alleviate some of this is by adjusting the rules for using armor repairs for all parties or outright removing it in combat.
I have an idea. A simple one, but one that I think could solve quite a few issues.

What if I tweak the code so that instead of doing (armor penetration %) damage to armor it flips it around. It does normal damage to armor, and penetration % damage to your HP? So if you have a gun that does 10 damage, and has 50% penetration, then it does 10 armor damage and 5 health damage? Should help with firefights dragging out forever IMHO.
 
Gun skill moves directly into the critical system. You get to do more damage based off factors like if you're injured and how many times you've fired your weapon at a target before.
o Distance damage has been drastically nerfed compared to before, most weapons like marksman rifles or carbines begin to have damage fall off at around 40 meters. Which is instead where they're most effective.
o Due to the agility skill, you have the chance to negate the effectiveness of bullets through dodging. This feature matters quite a bit and most of the time, becomes a factor of winning or losing that most people do not realize. If someone has 20 more speed skill points than you, they are able to dodge 40% more than you.
o The critical system is a bit weird, and due to its randomness it is difficult to detect. However, differing guns have different critical chances, and it is usually ranked by gun class, so pistol, smg, scrap, rifle, etc. These crits have been observed to do double or triple damage at differing points and do not work against the current armor system.
To point out, all these points here are built off untrue information.

Gun skill = Only affects recoil and sway of the weapon you are using. Level 0 = 200% recoil, Level 25 = 100% Level 50 = roughly around 20%. Also affects crit rate, see below.

Distance damage is something the system doesn't bother with. From reading the code and testing ingame, the only thing distance does is affect how effective your shot may be on X limb at Y range. So shooting someone in the head or chest the distance has next to no affect while the Arms and Legs distance may only minor reduce damage by around 1 or 2 points max.

Agility skill does nothing in gunplay. That assumption is from Teslaclouds old system which we never implemented and was only designed for TBC and nothing else as TBC was meant to replace all forms of combat. But as of right now, Agility does fuck all except a stamina buff.

Critical system is no longer random. Each weapon has a set crit rate and this crit rate can be increased to be max of 40% points based on gun skill. So lets say my junk AK has a 10% crit rate and I am level 20, it will probably be bumped up to around 27% at best.

Just wanted to correct those points. Now some players have raised gunplay issues in Devs DMs and there is a few things we can change, but I will say straight up to not expect any big changes. I will admit that Armor does feel a bit too buffed atm, but generally I think the rest of the system is fine as the issues mainly stem around the new armour system which tbh, isn't new, was just a code fix of something Gr4Ss made a few years back as all the code was found to be not running, so we just patched up the files to actually call the functions necessary for the system to kick in.

And main reason we did that is Armour in the past was very funky in terms of whether it worked or not. Sometimes did, sometimes didn't and everyone knows of the infamous "I died while my armour was still maxxed" bug as sometimes the system just outright ignored armour for no apparent reason.

I have an idea. A simple one, but one that I think could solve quite a few issues.

What if I tweak the code so that instead of doing (armor penetration %) damage to armor it flips it around. It does normal damage to armor, and penetration % damage to your HP? So if you have a gun that does 10 damage, and has 50% penetration, then it does 10 armor damage and 5 health damage? Should help with firefights dragging out forever IMHO.
I think we can do this as more realistic while also doing another few simple things like adding a timer to armour repair to address this issue:
My suggestion to immediately alleviate some of this is by adjusting the rules for using armor repairs for all parties or outright removing it in combat.

And can also add a timer to health items as per originally planned based on what item is being used.

Alternatively, we can just outright ban repairing armour while in any form of fighting scenario.
 
Okay robert but why is my 18 dmg g3 hitting for 4.13 at 50m to the chest then if range doesnt effect damage?
 
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Will comment on this later I’m at a basketball game
 
I have an idea. A simple one, but one that I think could solve quite a few issues.

What if I tweak the code so that instead of doing (armor penetration %) damage to armor it flips it around. It does normal damage to armor, and penetration % damage to your HP? So if you have a gun that does 10 damage, and has 50% penetration, then it does 10 armor damage and 5 health damage? Should help with firefights dragging out forever IMHO.
No M!NT please don't do that. That's the worst idea (respectfully) i've read so far.
The way I see this to work best would be to make guns hurt when you have no armor, and lower the pen on the guns to when you got armor.
Make it so that wearing armor is important, it's what keeps you alive as long as it's intact you are okay but the moment that armor breaks or you take it off it's a great danger because a few shots (4-6) with any gun and you drop dead.
however take into mind that there are guns who have INSANE fire rate such as the PPSH and mp7 who need a even lower armor pen to avoid them keeping on being superiour to other guns such as the g3.

I'd like to see another thing tweaked: Spread
I think the spread while aiming down sights is horrible, nothing infuriates more than being dead set on target and watching your bullet go to narnia cause it felt like it. I understand spread when you are hip firing and I love it, forces you to take proper aim and center your target.
But when you're targeting a enemy over 50 meters or so and you try to take a shot to just not see anything hit is infuriating.

However I also have to comment on recoil, it's still too low. On Guns 50 the recoil is ...NONE, I don't feel the recoil and I can easily beam someone across CZ with a entire mag, i'd like that to change I think it's unbalaced to fill someone up with lead across the Slums with an entire mag from a SMG. I'd like recoil to be upped and force people to take a moment and see how far they are from the enemy and decide if it's best to single fire and land those shots well or pepper the enemy with suppression of hellfire

Rifles should have a stronger kick vertically and as for SMGs it should be horizontally, making rifles perfect for long range and SMGs for short and medium range.
 
To point out, all these points here are built off untrue information.

Gun skill = Only affects recoil and sway of the weapon you are using. Level 0 = 200% recoil, Level 25 = 100% Level 50 = roughly around 20%. Also affects crit rate, see below.

Distance damage is something the system doesn't bother with. From reading the code and testing ingame, the only thing distance does is affect how effective your shot may be on X limb at Y range. So shooting someone in the head or chest the distance has next to no affect while the Arms and Legs distance may only minor reduce damage by around 1 or 2 points max.

Agility skill does nothing in gunplay. That assumption is from Teslaclouds old system which we never implemented and was only designed for TBC and nothing else as TBC was meant to replace all forms of combat. But as of right now, Agility does fuck all except a stamina buff.

Critical system is no longer random. Each weapon has a set crit rate and this crit rate can be increased to be max of 40% points based on gun skill. So lets say my junk AK has a 10% crit rate and I am level 20, it will probably be bumped up to around 27% at best.

Just wanted to correct those points. Now some players have raised gunplay issues in Devs DMs and there is a few things we can change, but I will say straight up to not expect any big changes. I will admit that Armor does feel a bit too buffed atm, but generally I think the rest of the system is fine as the issues mainly stem around the new armour system which tbh, isn't new, was just a code fix of something Gr4Ss made a few years back as all the code was found to be not running, so we just patched up the files to actually call the functions necessary for the system to kick in.

And main reason we did that is Armour in the past was very funky in terms of whether it worked or not. Sometimes did, sometimes didn't and everyone knows of the infamous "I died while my armour was still maxxed" bug as sometimes the system just outright ignored armour for no apparent reason.


I think we can do this as more realistic while also doing another few simple things like adding a timer to armour repair to address this issue:


And can also add a timer to health items as per originally planned based on what item is being used.

Alternatively, we can just outright ban repairing armour while in any form of fighting scenario.
Please don't ban repairing armor, add a timer to it and medical items. I like that you can repair your armor and fix yourself while combat is happening if your in a safe spot, it's also important to remember that you are..VUlnerable in this state and you're a fighter that is off the Fight.
You are rendered useless while fixing yourself and the enemy can easily take out your mates and rush you or perhaps a single enemy can flank and outright find you with your "pants down". Plus after all what use would the repair plating have if you can't repair your armor.
 
Just reverse the update, it clearly doesn't make the playerbase happy.
 
The current combat system feels like everyone exchanged their ammo for rubber bullets after the update. Just find a way to decrease TTK overall, people survive far too much punishment.
 
I would rather drag my nuts through a mile of broken glass and burning coals over getting in a s2k engagement after the toy weapons update
 
Just reverse the update, it clearly doesn't make the playerbase happy.
honestly reverse the entirety of GOI.

(Anyone saying no hasn't played rebel. GOI has added 0 content for rebels)
 
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