Implemented Crafting thoughts and experiences

[IZABAD]

Crafting, in general, is a little bit too hard for a number of reasons.
1. The Tools

Getting access to tools starting off on the server is incredibly difficult, it took me two+ full days of searching for a toolkit to finally get one. This would have not been much of a problem if shop owners could sell tools freely to anyone, but they can't.​

Even if you manage to successfully get your hands on the required tools, they're illegal. Due to this fact, I did not want to participate in activities in the city due to the possibility of losing them. I could not partake in work shifts that would aid in me gaining credits or even collect my ration.​

2. Junk Drops

More than half of the time when searching trash you get nothing and when you are competing on the server filled with 40-60 people, it can be difficult to find trash piles to loot in the first place. Then when you do finally receive a drop, it has a good chance it requires a toolkit to break it down. This forces people to either carry the item around taking up valuable space in hopes of getting a toolkit soon or just leave it where they found it.​

I believe this problem can be fixed by creating different types of trash spawns around the map. If you allow the trash found in the city to have a higher chance of dropping an item that can be deconstructed by hand, and trash found in the gas areas having a higher chance of dropping items needing a toolkit, you could make the process less frustrating.​

3. Inventory Management

At some point, you might make and or find some advanced crafting materials and you will obviously want to store them away in your personal stash. However, unlike most other materials, you will find that they only stack to a level of 2 instead of the normal 8. As you progress down the crafting path you will quickly find that you won't be able to fit all of your items into your personal stash. This requires you to start carrying items you don't want on you, mostly ones that are illegal to carry. The obvious answer to the lack of space is to make a storage container to ease the pain. When I reached high-level crafting as a solo player I found it impossible to keep all of my items away in my medium-sized stash witch happens to be the largest container I am allowed to make. I could of course take the risk of keeping items on me but that simply is not worth it. I ended up never going into the city during server prime time due to the fear of losing medium-level items I could not stash away.​

I believe a solution to this problem could be solved in a few ways. First, you can allow solo players to create and use the large stash and not only limiting it to groups of 5+, or second, you can allow improved materials to be stacked higher than 2. I also believe that the smallest container should only require a toolkit to make instead of the crafting workbench that is currently required and the medium-sized stash needing a crafting workbench rather than the Metal workbench.​

4. Other sidenotes

I believe it's unpractical for explosive material requiring a chemistry workbench, most crafters won't have that much interest in such a workbench past that one craft.​

The amount of Adhesive required for crafts is criminal. To make the Semi-auto pipe rifle, a weapon I would call mid-tier requires 62 adhesive in total, not counting the fact you need to make multiple toolkits, a crafting bench, and a mid-level storage container with a lock beforehand to even consider making one, even then you still have to make ammo. Now this feat was possible for me due to the fact I played every day on the server for an average of 9+ hours a day along with and most importantly extreme luck from multiple event loot rolls. I made the server my full-time job and had no setbacks ingame such as being caught or dying. The large majority can't say the same thing and can basically expect to never get to end game rebel. Something to also consider is how the gas system will affect the grind time. Gas on the beta map was pointless, when I entered the one small part of the map with it I just ignored it. Knowing that gas will play a much larger role on the main server, it's only going to make getting the required loot harder.​

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I like to think I understand the CMs opinion on inflation on the server and I still gotta say, you have to allow some easier grinding. You don't have to implement all of my suggestions but I do believe at least one should be. I can be PKed at almost anytime and that would just completely destroy my motivation to do it all over again. I would also like to remind everyone that I did 95% of the work alone without anyone else's help but I did manage to gain access to a free metal workbench. Things can go much differently if working with a group. I've attached screenshots of all the loot I managed to gain during my playtime along with some of the logs showing loot drops.​

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This last image shows what my inventory commonly looked like when I was walking around in the city par the axe. Note my personal stash is full and I was unable to yet create the smallest of stashes. If at any point I was searched by a CP I would lose the majority of what's in my inventory seeing how the total raw material limit is 8 and junk items is 5.​

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[AdamCF]

Getting access to tools starting off on the server is incredibly difficult, it took me two+ full days of searching for a toolkit to finally get one. This would have not been much of a problem if shop owners could sell tools freely to anyone, but they can't.Even if you manage to successfully get your hands on the required tools, they're illegal. Due to this fact, I did not want to participate in activities in the city due to the possibility of losing them. I could not partake in work shifts that would aid in me gaining credits or even collect my ration.

Toolkits were insanely expensive and not worth it at the start, I agree. But they lowered the mat + chip price of toolkits after the first four-ish days, and I think it solves that problem.

More than half of the time when searching trash you get nothing and when you are competing on the server filled with 40-60 people, it can be difficult to find trash piles to loot in the first place. Then when you do finally receive a drop, it has a good chance it requires a toolkit to break it down. This forces people to either carry the item around taking up valuable space in hopes of getting a toolkit soon or just leave it where they found it.I believe this problem can be fixed by creating different types of trash spawns around the map. If you allow the trash found in the city to have a higher chance of dropping an item that can be deconstructed by hand, and trash found in the gas areas having a higher chance of dropping items needing a toolkit, you could make the process less frustrating.

I agree with this, mostly. One suggestion I'd have is to increase the chance you find something depending on how many players are on. At 1 player, it could be something like 10%. At full, it could be closer to 80%.

Can't really comment on inventory management since I was nowhere near as equipped as you.
However, it seems like you're saying you can craft medium containers but you're not allowed to use them? If that's the case, I disagree with that completely.

 

[IZABAD]

Can't really comment on inventory management since I was nowhere near as equipped as you.
However, it seems like you're saying you can craft medium containers but you're not allowed to use them? If that's the case, I disagree with that completely.

You can make only 2 small or 1 medium-sized container if you are solo, you need a 5 man group to have the large container.
its a server rule

 

[AdamCF]

You can make only 2 small or 1 medium-sized container if you are solo, you need a 5 man group to have the large container.
its a server rule

I think that, if you've gone through the effort to craft it, it should be yours.

 

[Kamilisha Haijulikani]

1. The Tools

Getting access to tools starting off on the server is incredibly difficult, it took me two+ full days of searching for a toolkit to finally get one. This would have not been much of a problem if shop owners could sell tools freely to anyone, but they can't.​

Even if you manage to successfully get your hands on the required tools, they're illegal. Due to this fact, I did not want to participate in activities in the city due to the possibility of losing them. I could not partake in work shifts that would aid in me gaining credits or even collect my ration.​

The second point is rendered redundant and could easily be affected by a map change which could invalidate the point altogether. It's essentially risk versus reward. You can perform more complex crafting tasks with a toolkit but in exchange for it being illegal and the risk of getting caught with it on you in the city.

Presumably, in City 24 v3, the item will be more accessible as there will be greater demand and market for such as well as anti-civil activity, and the risk traversing to the surface due to the map's complex layout, tunneling, and size will be greatly mitigated as you'll probably be less likely to be caught and frisked.

2. Junk Drops
More than half of the time when searching trash you get nothing and when you are competing on the server filled with 40-60 people, it can be difficult to find trash piles to loot in the first place. Then when you do finally receive a drop, it has a good chance it requires a toolkit to break it down. This forces people to either carry the item around taking up valuable space in hopes of getting a toolkit soon or just leave it where they found it.
I believe this problem can be fixed by creating different types of trash spawns around the map. If you allow the trash found in the city to have a higher chance of dropping an item that can be deconstructed by hand, and trash found in the gas areas having a higher chance of dropping items needing a toolkit, you could make the process less frustrating.

I think this is a good suggestion. There should be different tiers of trash piles with higher and lower probabilities for what trash loot you receive depends on the area.

 

[IZABAD]

The second point is rendered redundant and could easily be affected by a map change which could invalidate the point altogether. It's essentially risk versus reward. You can perform more complex crafting tasks with a toolkit but in exchange for it being illegal and the risk of getting caught with it on you in the city.

Presumably, in City 24 v3, the item will be more accessible as there will be greater demand and market for such as well as anti-civil activity, and the risk traversing to the surface due to the map's complex layout, tunneling, and size will be greatly mitigated as you'll probably be less likely to be caught and frisked.

I had a conversation with Gr4Ss before beta and we talked about the private stashes. One of the reasons it was introduced was because back in V1 there was a whole city's worth of people just sitting in the underground because they did not want to risk losing thair loot they worked hard for. So now, if they decided to come up they could stash away things like gas masks and such to avoid death by CPs while also partaking in RP. The problem now is the number of slots that the materials take up vs the number of slots the final product takes up. You are basically unable to have freedom of movent while you are in the middle of collecting material for the final product, but that's when you need it the most, for the grind. Not to mention that getting enuff materials can take days of grinding.

 

[Atle]

This is incredibly useful information, I'm going to have a careful read through and make adjustments.

I have to be careful though to not make it too easy for big groups, it is meant to be quite difficult for only 1 person to achieve the high-end stuff alone... However I see quite a lot of stuff like stack sizes and junk drops % will be increased for the main launch as well

 

[Atle]

I've done the following so far @IZABAD

1. All improved material stack sizes increased to 4 from 2 (with a few exceptions, strong adhesive has a stack size of 8 now)
2. Junk drops will have a bit better % to drop stuff on launch
3. Small container now uses toolkit instead of crafting bench
4. Explosive materials now uses Metal Workbench instead of Chemical Workbench
5. Heavy weapon parts now uses 1x1 width/height

Do you have any other comments before I moved this to implemented?

 

[Gr4Ss]

I think that, if you've gone through the effort to craft it, it should be yours.

Mostly a matter of needing a spot to put said container and the fact we'd rather not have the map littered with barely used containers belong to inactive characters.

I'll think I will change the drop chances on junk to take the amount of players into account. I do want to make it more reliable during peak time, but without making it easy to go around during low pop.

 

[AdamCF]

Mostly a matter of needing a spot to put said container and the fact we'd rather not have the map littered with barely used containers belong to inactive characters.

I'll think I will change the drop chances on junk to take the amount of players into account. I do want to make it more reliable during peak time, but without making it easy to go around during low pop.

I can agree with this, sure.

This might be a bit too codey, but maybe if a container hasn't been accessed within 2 weeks, it could be removed and its contents could be stored in a little log file for if staff need to give it back.

 

[Bodger]

Personally adhesive should be easier to craft and also have durability. There are glues you can make at home that don't need industrial strength mixers, and you're not using whole bottles of it to stick four pieces of cloth together to make stitched cloth either... If we're not making it easier to craft, it should definitely be given durability instead of one time use things

 

[araskes]

Personally adhesive should be easier to craft and also have durability. There are glues you can make at home that don't need industrial strength mixers, and you're not using whole bottles of it to stick four pieces of cloth together to make stitched cloth either... If we're not making it easier to craft, it should definitely be given durability instead of one time use things

massive agree

 

[IZABAD]

Personally adhesive should be easier to craft and also have durability. There are glues you can make at home that don't need industrial strength mixers, and you're not using whole bottles of it to stick four pieces of cloth together to make stitched cloth either... If we're not making it easier to craft, it should definitely be given durability instead of one time use things

The problem in the beta with adhesive for me at least was not that I could not get adhesive, but that I could never get enuff of it. I never ended up crafting adhesive but buying it from the smuggler instead. The only problem with this was that you need chips to buy it, and you could not get chips when the smuggler was constantly full due to it not having another location for it to move to. I would always sell electronic parts to the smuggler due to them not being that useful to me and they give a decent amount of money that I would then turn around with and immediately buy adhesive with. Seeing that he will now be moving around and resetting himself that won't be a problem anymore. What could be a new problem is how long the smuggler might not be on the map when he's swapping spots or if any of his spots are in the gas area of the map. Depending on how impactful gas is, it could make crafting a hundred times harder than it already is.

 

[IZABAD]

Do you have any other comments before I moved this to implemented?

I'm extremely worried about Gas on the new map, I believe it will create a situation requiring hundreds of hours of work for little return regardless of any changes made. I of course don't know this as a fact.

 

[Bodger]

I'm extremely worried about Gas on the new map, I believe it will create a situation requiring hundreds of hours of work for little return regardless of any changes made. I of course don't know this as a fact.

We had gas in D47 but it was in the sewers, and aside from the quick drop in to get trash, no real reason to go down there after the vorts got wiped out within the first week

 

[IZABAD]

We had gas in D47 but it was in the sewers, and aside from the quick drop in to get trash, no real reason to go down there after the vorts got wiped out within the first week

I know we had gas. Gas on D47 was in such a small area, you never needed to gain a build-up of gas points when running through it to get loot. However, on C24 the gas area will be ginormous and will force you to gain a build-up of gas points. Crafting items was already extremely difficult due to the amount of grinding required to get loot and now needing to worry about gas raises my blood pressure just thinking about it.
I don't think gas should be removed and some testing on the live server should be done first but, it will probably end up with a drastic reduction in the amount of material required to make items.

 

[dno]

The Average Crafter:

The Average Rebel:

you're looking at two play styles. A player who spent hours to gather materials in hope of someone crafting a gun. Which keep in mind would have no ammo. Then, someone who simply ran up on a CP and gained gear that would takes weeks to craft.

 

[Atle]

We've added more ingredients to the smuggler now as well so it should be more feasible to craft adhesive (vinegar and flour)