[Discussion] Resistance Overhaul

[RedHotGinger]

No long post from me this time, but I will say:

1. I am really not sure how this is going to be done without it being made into a plot armored behemoth that can never truly be destroyed despite its obvious vulnerabilities. Technically speaking, one raid is all that will be needed to end this entire concept. So, either Rebels will be given so much free gear that its feasibly impossible for CP's to do anything about them, or they will just have some magical OOC rules placed overhead to prevent raids.

2. The idea of making the resistance function exactly like the Combine is really weird and doesn't seem like its something they would ever want to do. It also has the potential to step on certain faction toes, be them the CMU, or just general citizen shops. As its no secret rebels are able to get large volumes of supplies somewhat easily and as a result may be able to easily run all other elements out.

There's other stuff, but those are the main fish.

 

[Belgg]

Resistance Overhaul
This is not official and is a suggestion put on the table for discussion


Structure

Resistance gameplay in its current iteration follows the post 2014 free for all setup, whereas anyone without any restriction may create their own groups. The downside of this system is it creates a strong feeling of “mobster” roleplay with infighting and a lack of overall unity / direction. It also creates a loot / hoarding loop since there's no overall objective to follow.

I’d like to propose experimenting with a pre-2014 system where resistance gameplay used a whitelist to stay in sync with server/story direction and kept a more structured approach to goals and gameplay. Think of how Civil Protection operates but for the resistance, with their own base (with similar rules to CPs to not stay there for longer than X time), leads, roles, gameplay, etc.


View attachment 12768

Current
We provide the tools to grant everyone opportunities but we do not provide the direction nor leadership with our resistance setup to organically create objectives without heavy admin intervention. I do not find this system sustainable long-term and if the involved admin/s eventually leave, the system gets hampered even further without clear replacements. In effect we operate a sort of semi-official admin event led faction leadership glued together with rebel representatives. It is quite up in the air for most times and difficult to keep track of. What I'd much rather see is a player in the leadership position who's able to carry the torch and organize the resistance.


New
Proposed new system builds on top of our mechanics, still allowing for independent groups but syncs the server with appointed rebel leads with an official resistance faction aligned with it. Whitelisted members will reduce the infighting and provide a natural doorway for players wishing to become official resistance. Any whitelisted positions excluding the main lead can be appointed ICly. Players may still create independent groups at will, the whitelist faction will not be stopping that.


Structurally equalize both sides

View attachment 12769

Both combine and resistance (structurally) can be equalized to be similar but with their own distinct flavour, I use the combine side as an example above as they already have this setup in place. The combine start off in the Nexus with ooc rules to prevent cps idling there for too long, the Resistance can have the same as well with rules to prevent the i17 secret base idle issue.

The combine side have Civil Administration and Civil Protection offering diplomatic and pro-combine enforcement roleplay. The resistance can structurally have similar with leads offering a path forward, and fighters to help keep everyone safe from the combine.

Similar setups to CWU, CMU but simplified and more organic, the Resistance can have engineers and medics to offer specialized roles and gameplay. These roles can be intermixed and wouldn’t need to be strict or streamlined as CWU/CMU. Only the lead engineer/medic would strictly need the whitelist.

Then each sides equivalent of currency groups, for the Resistance it is the Black Market Dealers with its own lead as it is now but overall under the umbrella of the main Resistance to encourage communication and a tighter rebel community.

Finally you have the civilians and independent groups and vorts who will intermingle and find their paths set between the two sides. Just like how loyalist groups have intermingling “politics” between the various pro-combine factions, independent groups will communicate, trade and work their ways with the official resistance.


The goal
It is my hope this will reduce the dramatic infighting and trial by who shoots you first entryways we have now. By granting the resistance more structure I also hope this will add another element of purpose and reduce the looting / monster feel. The goal is to also push players to RP to join the official resistance and encourage more quality. Not to mention it'll be far more easy for Creative Team to organize events specifically for the resistance.


Rebel base
Much like how CPs operate with their Nexus, the Rebels can have a similar setup with base rules preventing its members to idle there for longer than X amount of time.


Who gets to become lead?
If this reform were to go through whoever gets to be the Resistance faction lead role will have a steep task to complete, it is vital to find a figure who's open minded, doesn't mind changes, thinks server-wide balance with combine/rebels and someone who wont have a meltdown if they lose their leadership position. This could be done via a open application setup, handpick interviews, etc to be determined.



If there's enough support to give it a go, we could give it an experimental trial run in the near future, possibly for the next map switch event.

it has been proven during this city 17 event that you can't make this idea. And if you do, you'll have to choose someone active as fuck to be the lead. Becouse in this event it was all chaos, the leads did not connect for almost the entire duration of the event. So even tho i haven't tried any of those systems, i think letting players do it by themselves would work better, as i have experienced what would be close to what you said.

 

[Pandafish]

If the server wasn't so OOC inclined I could see the appeal of a strong rebel ecosystem held to the same standards as the Combine factions. But I don't think it'll be anything more than a Rust zerg clan that everyone hates.

 

[Ruairidh]

it has been proven during this city 17 event that you can't make this idea.

to an extent yes but they want players to rule the rebels not admins, this overrules the problems we had during I17

 

[Belgg]

to an extent yes but they want players to rule the rebels not admins, this overrules the problems we had during I17

Hans was one of the leaders and he wasn't an admin.

 

[Rabid]

From personal experience, putting this entire thing on the shoulders of players isn't going to work - it'll crumble in record time. Players don't have the serverwide perspective or experience to make decisions or choices based on the health of everything and if you force them to take that approach it'll burn them out very quick.

And, as mentioned in my last post, the fundamental and very key difference is that other than Civil Protection, The Combine's various groups are entirely passive in nature and have the bulk of the city to fall back on to make roleplay - rebels don't. What can rebel engineers do? Fix pipes? Modify combine stuff? Sure, but unless that's put to use it'll seem trite and boring.

What about rebel fighters? The second they start "enforcing" stuff on lesser groups for "crimes" you're gonna get conflict. They can't work like CP's do.

 

[Ruairidh]

Hans was one of the leaders and he wasn't an admin.

Pretty sure hans was Kaffe who is infact an admin

 

[John Rico]

I feel like the natural trial phase would be to introduce a main rebel group that tries uniting every other player group, but one that is mostly off-server, led and played by the CT (because I doubt any non-staff guy would ever have enough authority to carry out that kind of plan) and which mostly interacts with the server through said player groups. From there you could probably build a more natural main rebel org that actually dominates the resistance scene in the server proper by drawing from the characters that worked with you from the get-go.

Like, for instance, if you want groups to fill the CWU and CMU niches, give people willing to make these groups goals and rewards so that they go with the direction of the server/narrative needs. This way a group dedicated to building infrastructure in Indigent like a rebel CWU would not be an asspull.

 

[ShadoWiz4rd]

Prepare for a long winded one

Suggestion
I suggest a "Revolutionary Council" Is formed up headed by leaders of each Cell currently working, A set of codes of conduct and acceptable operations/things to be done and can't be done morally or for possibility of jeopardizing the entire resistance in the city as a whole. What does this look like? Well each cell would have a representative I.E The Leader maybe they bring their Lieutenant or w/e along. And the BMD's along with a representative of the Whitelisted Resistance form the top, The system works like old-world democracy in a sense where each cell votes for things and somethings are passed into "Law" Establishing a Council would also help bring law and order to an extent to the city in which an uprising and overthrow of combine rule occurs, Think D47 on TN or City 2-3 durring their war/uprisings. The council would exist to keep people in line icly, If you don't follow the rules you're seen as a terrorist/bandit and not as a freedom fighter/rebel. I.E If you're an asshole mugging random loyalists for their clothes and shit you're deemed that by the council, If you go out mass murdering civillians/mugging people brutally executing surrendering CP's/MAA you're deemed a terrorist and the Resistance/Council either decides to try and capture you and hold a sort of trial or dispatch a coalition crack team of rebels to kill you.

What it can do?
If needed the Council can vote on a collaborative Operation done between cells. It can administer Justice. It can help facilitate the underground rail-road and meet for voting on how to go about executing an objective or how to use Intelligence. Each cell leader would have a say in voting on matters at hand.

How it would be useful?
In order to prevent a lack of motivation I think a few of us can agree some form of Chain of Command is absolutely necessary for us to get out of the stagnated swamp that is Rebel RP Currently and by having a Unified body to address issues and include others within it would not only give people another avenue/venue for Rebel rp but make them feel involved in this.


Example Structure.
- Council Chairman
- Resistance C24 Representative
- Cell Leader
-Cell Leader
-Cell Leader
-Cell Leader


Where could this take place?
There are multiple places this could happen, It could happen somewhere within the sewers. It could take place in the admin box within a small room or some sort.

How it would be implemented.
It could be Implemented a few ways, However in my opinion the best ways would likely be there is a character who initially is elected out of the current cells, If this fails then by default the Resistance Representative takes control of the Chair-man position until a suitable replacement is hand-picked.

 

[Merlinsclaw]

​

Ok here's my tl:dr

rebels suffer from:
- poor organization
- grind being to much
- the circlejerk

A group thats led by players and serves as a creative outlet for the CT could work. It just needs to be ran correctly. This group could be help run expeditions and other CT events and missions. This helps organization in a way.

The group couldn't be a rebel admin group but one that's ran by players and just works really well with the C.T. Furthermore, the group needs to organize rebels. This could be done and feeds into a point later. Any bluesuit should be able to get involved and do their thing. Being circlejerky and refusing every citizen is super stupid.

Lastly, the pitfall of having an 'offscreen CT group' is that none of these problems are really fixed on the ground. Rebels stay the exact same. The group would just give quests and piss off.

Now for the large part:

On the server, we need to see a change in the 'gameplay meta' of rebels. While City Twenty-Four's intent is to focus on a more 'infiltration and topside' meta, this hasn't really worked over the past year. Furthermore, rebel groups are often under constant stress of base raiding or amputation due to how brazen Overwatch Forces are in their efforts to raid bases and more. Again, this is somewhat of a map issue. Furthermore, Rebel Forces are hesitant to pull anything 'big' (such as small revolts or riots) as often times it's just been instantly crushed. And meanwhile infiltrations and the like are hampered severely. The intend needs to be to change this meta by establishing the slums as this more militaristic rebel zone where rebels can be rebels. Our intent is to see rebels able to be in 'full rebellion mode' rather than this quasi-criminal/gang state that doesn't quite work. To accomplish this, upon our switch back to City Twenty-Four, the slums need fortified and begin organizing the rebels into a group that can defend themselves. On the flip side, Combine forces pulled back for a week to allow this to happen. When the week is up, the hope that the new meta below is slowly coming into effect. This meta would be a semi war-like state in the slums. The Combine side would be fortified and so would the rebel side. A trench warfare-like combat would take place where both sides would have their fortified area where they could sit and passive RP. Smoke, run ammo up and back, etc. etc. Sometimes someone may shoot over the top and tensions would flare for a while. Rebels would also have a 'backline' area where refugees could RP around medical tents, barracks, and other things along that line. This idea also requires some 'goodwill' from the Combine factions, first to let rebels organize, and second not to hardline sweep with OTA to take everything out in the rebel section-- In somewhat of the same manner, rebel forces can't immediately go 'rebellion mode' and rush the City to try and overthrow it. Lastly, the intention to at least, in part, keep the slums open. While there may be a 'conflict' area, citizens in general should still be able to access the slums. Refugees from both sides, at times, should be able to enter and exit. Loyalists should also, technically, be allowed to enter but should be under constant scrutiny from both the rebels and the Combine. To also address some issues, the Combine may also want to 'lock off access' to the slums, at least near the conflict zone, when tensions flare up.

 

[Ruairidh]

Prepare for a long winded one

Suggestion
I suggest a "Revolutionary Council" Is formed up headed by leaders of each Cell currently working, A set of codes of conduct and acceptable operations/things to be done and can't be done morally or for possibility of jeopardizing the entire resistance in the city as a whole. What does this look like? Well each cell would have a representative I.E The Leader maybe they bring their Lieutenant or w/e along. And the BMD's along with a representative of the Whitelisted Resistance form the top, The system works like old-world democracy in a sense where each cell votes for things and somethings are passed into "Law" Establishing a Council would also help bring law and order to an extent to the city in which an uprising and overthrow of combine rule occurs, Think D47 on TN or City 2-3 durring their war/uprisings. The council would exist to keep people in line icly, If you don't follow the rules you're seen as a terrorist/bandit and not as a freedom fighter/rebel. I.E If you're an asshole mugging random loyalists for their clothes and shit you're deemed that by the council, If you go out mass murdering civillians/mugging people brutally executing surrendering CP's/MAA you're deemed a terrorist and the Resistance/Council either decides to try and capture you and hold a sort of trial or dispatch a coalition crack team of rebels to kill you.

What it can do?
If needed the Council can vote on a collaborative Operation done between cells. It can administer Justice. It can help facilitate the underground rail-road and meet for voting on how to go about executing an objective or how to use Intelligence. Each cell leader would have a say in voting on matters at hand.

How it would be useful?
In order to prevent a lack of motivation I think a few of us can agree some form of Chain of Command is absolutely necessary for us to get out of the stagnated swamp that is Rebel RP Currently and by having a Unified body to address issues and include others within it would not only give people another avenue/venue for Rebel rp but make them feel involved in this.


Example Structure.
- Council Chairman
- Resistance C24 Representative
- Cell Leader
-Cell Leader
-Cell Leader
-Cell Leader


Where could this take place?
There are multiple places this could happen, It could happen somewhere within the sewers. It could take place in the admin box within a small room or some sort.

How it would be implemented.
It could be Implemented a few ways, However in my opinion the best ways would likely be there is a character who initially is elected out of the current cells, If this fails then by default the Resistance Representative takes control of the Chair-man position until a suitable replacement is hand-picked.

This was essentially the event we just did... It will suffer similar problems

 

[RedHotGinger]

Already discussed this before, but I'm going to lay out most what makes this a very bad idea in the long run.

This idea also requires some 'goodwill' from the Combine factions, first to let rebels organize, and second not to hardline sweep with OTA to take everything out in the rebel section-- In somewhat of the same manner, rebel forces can't immediately go 'rebellion mode' and rush the City to try and overthrow it.

First off, the biggest problem that this concept brings is that it is entirely based on OOC efforts and agreements to even keep it in a steady state. This is an attempt to bring an outlands concept into a city which cannot possibly hold any potential structure for such a setup. Everyone just has to agree to not actually do anything impactful or of any importance in order to keep this façade of combat up long enough for it to run its course.

Lastly, the intention to at least, in part, keep the slums open.

This wont be the case. It makes literally no sense that any location under total occupation would be accessible to anyone other than those who wish to join the cause. Loyalists will simply be killed and anyone that isn't will be interrogated or killed by the Combine because its insane to think that any other conclusion could be reached after witnessing them willingly enter literal rebel territory knowingly. Average citizens also would have no reason to enter unless they intended to get caught up into the fight, which means you will quickly dissolve the base population of the server and see it devoured by the OOC enforced rebel presence. Either that, or you will just have to kick them out to ensure such does not occur.

In general, ideas like this provide RP for only those directly involved. Citizens, who make up the majority of the server, have no cause or reasonable intent to get involved in firefights which is all this truly provides. Its just the CvR aspect of the server (Which I would consider the servers worst attribute) put under a microscope and enforced via OOC means. The greatest irony is that its the hardest implementation of the status quo. As naturally, when two sides fight lines will be pressed and forces beaten back in time, but the main purpose of this whole setup is to ensure that nothing actually changes or moves in any meaningful manner. Its all done for the sake of itself and will never be allowed to progress without the exact blessing of the admins who really control it all.

Another issue includes a total lack of context and earned status as an uprising will essentially just randomly begin. As well as it basically enforcing the need for endless scripts to actually be considered any form of rebel, as a city under constant gunfire very much negates the need for infiltration and sabotage.

The final kick in the teeth for this idea is the reality that a constant state of uprising will rapidly see the entire concept watered down and no longer interesting in record time. There are only so many times citizens can pretend to care about constant battles that will never lead anywhere. So many times you can do '/me covers ears' when shots ring out across the map for the 30th time that week. The only group that will be given excitement from this are those directly involved, and even they will start to feel how bland it is in time.

There technically is also the lore side of things, but its not even worth pointing out each and every inconsistency in that respect. Its not rocket science to understand that an indefinite rebellion in a city would not work without seeing constant escalation and an eventual conclusion just weeks later. Maybe this idea could work for a server event in another location, but not at all for the main hub of RP. Admin enforced uprisings have no place there.

TLDR:
Its basically one giant admin enforced uprising that will quickly get stale and see the majority of the server locked out of most its substance anyway.

 

[Neonity]

Then thats all people would play.

As if that’s a bad thing.

 

[Donavin Jones]

As if that’s a bad thing.

Then no one would play main, and willard would just turn into nebulous with more detail.

 

[Ruairidh]

Then no one would play main, and willard would just turn into nebulous with more detail.

How so? the Outland server would mearly act as a rebel counterpart to C24

 

[RedHotGinger]

How so? the Outland server would mearly act as a rebel counterpart to C24

Outland servers typically are a bad idea as it forces a split in the servers population. On average, Willard gets around 40 players at peak hours most of the time. Needless to say, you cannot really split forty people between multiple maps and still have either be any fun whatsoever.

There are some manners in which it could be added without harming the server as a whole, but only in ways that prevent constant visitation, or ensure that each visit is very short lived. Unless Willard were to have some 90 players regularly could you even consider opening up a second map, and even then you likely wouldn't.

 

[CristoNath]

Outland servers typically are a bad idea as it forces a split in the servers population. On average, Willard gets around 40 players at peak hours most of the time. Needless to say, you cannot really split forty people between multiple maps and still have either be any fun whatsoever.

There are some manners in which it could be added without harming the server as a whole, but only in ways that prevent constant visitation, or ensure that each visit is very short lived. Unless Willard were to have some 90 players regularly could you even consider opening up a second map, and even then you likely wouldn't.

While that might be true, we are running out of space in city 24, Where do you want those rebels to base lmao, there are no spaces anymore. An outland server might attract more people as well who knows

 

[verTix]

city and outlands cannot exist simultaneously. one of them will die and it's probably city because the rebels would rather circlejerk in the outlands where they have nothing to worry about. and then they realize there's nothing to do and also leave. and that's how it ends.

 

[Merlinsclaw]

Outlands is a terrible idea. That being said, doing nothing will just result in the problem becoming worse. If the slums are continued to be looked at as a City zone where CPs can go in, raid bases, and sweep every day or every week, than you'll never see an 'organized' set of rebels. To those saying "Oh! Just do infiltration and sabotage. Then urban warfare when they try to sweep!" That's exactly what the expectation has been for the past year and it hasn't worked.

 

[Ruairidh]

Outland servers typically are a bad idea as it forces a split in the servers population. On average, Willard gets around 40 players at peak hours most of the time. Needless to say, you cannot really split forty people between multiple maps and still have either be any fun whatsoever.

There are some manners in which it could be added without harming the server as a whole, but only in ways that prevent constant visitation, or ensure that each visit is very short lived. Unless Willard were to have some 90 players regularly could you even consider opening up a second map, and even then you likely wouldn't.

city and outlands cannot exist simultaneously. one of them will die and it's probably city because the rebels would rather circlejerk in the outlands where they have nothing to worry about. and then they realize there's nothing to do and also leave. and that's how it ends.

Outlands is a terrible idea. That being said, doing nothing will just result in the problem becoming worse. If the slums are continued to be looked at as a City zone where CPs can go in, raid bases, and sweep every day or every week, than you'll never see an 'organized' set of rebels. To those saying "Oh! Just do infiltration and sabotage. Then urban warfare when they try to sweep!" That's exactly what the expectation has been for the past year and it hasn't worked.

An outlands server could work under a main rebel group, all you need is someone to tell the circle jerkers to go do shit and punish them if they dont refuse, plus the layout that Atle just wont really work on the cramped confines of C24