'Gritty' HL2RP & The Unseriousness of Willard: A Discussion Thread

[Rabid]

"Gritty" HL2RP is hard to do right on a mass scale. The best examples of it I've seen have come from short term servers but even there it was exaggerated to the point of comedy.

Then they can cope,

War's aren't won through sitting there playing friend of the citizen. The French resistance actually went out and fought Nazi occupiers, The Viet Cong fought the Americans ambushing/trapping/blowing them up. The Irish Republican Army Launched devastating car bombings and mortar attacks on British forces. The Mujahedeen launched devastating night time raids on Soviet and American troops in Afghanistan. The American Patriots had the balls to grab their muskets and bombs and fight British regulars head on or using adapted guerilla ambushes.

What does the C24 Rebellion do? On occasion when offered a bunch of guns ammo and money they do a coordinated attack. They Lure each other and cap one another in the head because they're afraid of fighting the combine. News flash, Killing Joe ak47 because he wants to go kill cops isn't gonna stop you from getting killed by transhuman a week from now when your group launches a raid on a checkpoint. War's are one through killing, And through propaganda. If they really wanna be friends of the people then they need to be attacking/raiding CWU Warehouses and stealing rations to distribute in the CZ to people. Instead of acting out of greed.

I will say that it literally doesn't matter what rebels did; if people don't want to like them OOC then they won't.

You won't ever see mass support for The Resistance ala the source material (or even something like the French Resistance in WW2) simply because this isn't real life and you aren't actually under an alien occupation. If the Resistance wasn't forced by map design to camp in one stretch of tunnels in one single district then "killing Joe ak47" because he decided to shoot cops wouldn't be a necessity either.

You also have to remember that Lambda spent 20 years slowly building up their technology base and ferrying citizens, something that is also not possible given the way Gmod is.

 

[albertossic]

Bombing Citizen targets isn't what the French Resistance did (Unlike City-24 Rebels); they are the good guys. The American Rebels fought for freedom and actively wanted to save Citizens from British tyranny, taxes, etc. Never opting to drag them into the war for no reason. However...

The Viet Cong murdered their people so that Americans couldn't use them, and if not, used them to hide and stash weapons that prodded Americans to do evil acts, The IRA used Citizens and Children as human shields and bombed Civilian Targets to get to the British government (its why Ireland hates them now). The Mujahideen kill their people because they don't believe in their ideology (Look at Modern News) and use Suicide Tactics not on themselves but on innocent Civilians just trying to live life. But oh no, the evil Americans came by so they are /forced/ to use Citizens as human shields, kill kids, use hospitals as places to store arms, etc.

Everyone you listed isn't the good guys, minus maybe two groups. And everything they've done, the City-24 rebels have done at some point. The most City-24 rebels have done, before today, was shoot at 2-3 CPs, then run and hide when the rest come. Shoot other Civilians because they spoke too much. Drug their Citizens to fight for them—mug Citizens for their goods to be used for a more 'significant cause', and the list just goes on, and on, to on with bombings, fires, and more shootings.

Trying my best not to be insulting, this is a comically U.S.-centric, reductive and uneducated take on basically every single group you listed. A seventh-grade North Korean child's level of understanding

I already wanted to weigh in by saying that modelling hl2rp after political literature will always be preferrable to modelling it after real political affairs because it's A) useless B) tasteless and C) inevitably going to become even more useless and tasteless through exposure to people who have no understanding of or appreciation for history

But seeing this level of complete, comical, hard-to-believe-it's-not-satire misunderstanding from members of the staff team only makes me double down in this request:

Modelling roleplay after historical events in a lighthearted and abstract way is fine if a bit borderline, and I often do it too (e.g. Spanish Civil War references). Please don't actively argue about the specifics of direct singular roleplay acts in reference to real-life political scenarios. It's pointless, unproductive and more often than not paints you like a tasteless idiot.

 

[albertossic]

I don’t view a harsher route to be the way, Willard is a melting pot and to discourage players from playing the character they want is not something we should build up to..

I agree with you, but I think (even though the point is slightly confused), the vision Merlinsclaw has for HL2RP, less Big Brother and more Cyberpunk, is *more* forgiving than the current system.

The way the game currently works, all interactions between cops and the slightest criminals, cops and loyalists, the CCA and slum dwellers, etc. etc. are extremely tense and move forward mostly inspired by the fear of character death. I think a less harsh route with less "oversight" in both lore and gameplay terms would allow people more freedom in how and what they play

 

[Rebel RP Philosopher]

Good.... now I will let them be bribed too.

they already do this

 

[Chico]

I hate pussy CPs that only follow the law.

You're literally paid by big alien empire to brutalize your own kind. At least do it properly.

 

[Rebel RP Philosopher]

I hate pussy CPs that only follow the law.

You're literally paid by big alien empire to brutalize your own kind. At least do it properly.

paid?
you mean slaved with benefits?

 

[Noh]

Trying my best not to be insulting, this is a comically U.S.-centric, reductive and uneducated take on basically every single group you listed. A seventh-grade North Korean child's level of understanding

I already wanted to weigh in by saying that modelling hl2rp after political literature will always be preferrable to modelling it after real political affairs because it's A) useless B) tasteless and C) inevitably going to become even more useless and tasteless through exposure to people who have no understanding of or appreciation for history

But seeing this level of complete, comical, hard-to-believe-it's-not-satire misunderstanding from members of the staff team only makes me double down in this request:

Modelling roleplay after historical events in a lighthearted and abstract way is fine if a bit borderline, and I often do it too (e.g. Spanish Civil War references). Please don't actively argue about the specifics of direct singular roleplay acts in reference to real-life political scenarios. It's pointless, unproductive and more often than not paints you like a tasteless idiot.

Still acts that those groups committed, and I wasn't saying to model it after them. Just noted to the person I was replying to that those groups aren't 'selfless rebels', or really something that *THEY* should model a proper resistance group over on server.

 

[Noh]

More often than not it boils down to post-conflict branding. If they win it was most certainly a rebellion, if they lose they are more than likely terrorists.

As for the larger topic, and for what my opinion is worth, I think there is plenty of room for there to be comedic leaning characters. Comedic relief is a necessity because it allows for the dreary and nightmarish portions of the experience to cast far darker shadows.

That is also very true, to be honest. Just like how if you're a rebel you'd want it to become 'The Revolution' not 'The Rebellion' as one sort of denotes that you 'won.'


Plus, not every group that Rebels could be classified as Terrorists, and vice versa. (If you look past a government or entity trying to discredit them).

Like you can say that the British saw the American Rebels as terrorists, but were they really? Their motives were more of an individual 'we want to be free' based than really anything political, though there were some aims of politics involved. But they achieved those aims without using violence on Civilians, at least the Continental Army did. Other groups who you could say were terrorists, may have done things differently.

Meanwhile, a group like the Taliban are rebelling in some capacity, they are still predominantly a terrorist group who have attacked vast swathes of Civilian targets (The US and the Middle East alike) based on a multitude of issues, like differing views on how people should act, rights of certain genders, the whole shtick. Their main aim is their ideology and politics, and are willing to kill, bomb, and maime Civilian targets to further their goals. Same could be said for the other groups Sneeding mentioned.


In the end, the two words definitely have some cross-overs in what they mean, but calling them 'THE SAME' is just plain wrong in my opinion.

 

[albertossic]

Just noted to the person I was replying to that those groups aren't 'selfless rebels', or really something that *THEY* should model a proper resistance group over on server.

Yes. Don't do this please.
Neither of you has any clue what you are talking about, please don't get into debates about what garry's mod hl2 rebel clans should or shouldn't do based on your, again, comically incoherent understanding of history

Like you can say that the British saw the American Rebels as terrorists, but were they really? Their motives were more of an individual 'we want to be free' based than really anything political, though there were some aims of politics involved. But they achieved those aims without using violence on Civilians, at least the Continental Army did. Other groups who you could say were terrorists, may have done things differently.

Meanwhile, a group like the Taliban are rebelling in some capacity, they are still predominantly a terrorist group who have attacked vast swathes of Civilian targets (The US and the Middle East alike) based on a multitude of issues, like differing views on how people should act, rights of certain genders, the whole shtick. Their main aim is their ideology and politics, and are willing to kill, bomb, and maime Civilian targets to further their goals. Same could be said for the other groups Sneeding mentioned.

This is actual gibberish. If you want to write historical analysis that would embarass a 16 year old redneck, go to the Economist. It has nothing to do with how this garry's mod game should be set up

 

[Pawlu]

I'll add this, one Dystopian movie I will never shut up about is the 2006 film:
Children of Men

The main plot of the film surrounds infertility and the movie excels in showing a dystopian United Kingdom after 18 years of infertility. If I'm quite honest with you, Willard plays less like a brutal story of struggle and more like a dark comedy, how the CCA is made up of old senile retards, cigar-smoking pencil pushers, and outright insane ideological fanatics. Another point is how the two most prominent overseers are a French man with a silly accent and the generic Russian Bond villain.

Don't get me wrong I do enjoy playing on this server but at times it feels like I'm in a comedy skit rather than playing in a world run by an alien dictatorship. In Merlin's own word's "Half the fun of hl2rp is conflict." and I agree with this, HL2RP should be about the struggle, the conflict in surviving another day in a world torn apart. I do think comedy gives a balance however the server shouldn't get lost in those themes. I'm a fan of Merlin's vision of HL2RP, it feels like every person, every CCA Board member, and every CP has their own struggle with some doing morally dubious actions to save themselves but in the end, kill many.​

I don't like the purist vision of HL2RP which consists of: le generic industrial17 looking map, citizen wear bluesuit or die, and the over usage of 1984 posters. It's definitely the intended way (or at least before Half-Life: Alyx) for it to be made however it just gets boring. Willard has done a 180 from the much darker themes of Retail but in the end, almost makes it seem like the Combine are incompetent with the people in their high ranks.

I've learned a lot about HL2RP over the past year and I've come to appreciate Merlin's way of creating conflict. I think we easily brush over how Casto is a fucking mad man who has easily turned the entirety of Western Europe against him but in his actions he has started a conflict, he's a villain who is likable for being despicable.

If there's anything to take from this it's that there needs to be a balance with HL2rp, I really want to see the gritty nature of HL2, cops being corrupt so they can feed themselves, back alley casinos, gruesome gang wars, these all fit the criteria of being gritty, not for the sake of it but for the fact that everyone is in this perpetual struggle.

-Pawlu​

 

[Noh]

Yes. Don't do this please.
Neither of you has any clue what you are talking about, please don't get into debates about what garry's mod hl2 rebel clans should or shouldn't do based on your, again, comically incoherent understanding of history



This is actual gibberish. If you want to write historical analysis that would embarass a 16 year old redneck, go to the Economist. It has nothing to do with how this garry's mod game should be set up

Calm down, it's just a HL2Rp. It's not like I'm saying my view is the correct view and is the only way. And yeah, my current knowledge on International Politics or Terrorist/Rebellious groups of the past is surface level, as it's not my specific field of study. So though I can still comment on it, I am just not the best person to comment on it.

However, you are sitting here saying that "you know" the right thing while never really giving any insightful look into how I am wrong, rather, you're just flinging insults after saying you wouldn't do that exact thing which is a tad childish of you. So, tell me why I am wrong instead. As I am willing to understand your point when you make one and admit that I am wrong.

 

[Craw]

I'll add this, one Dystopian movie I will never shut up about is the 2006 film:
Children of Men

The main plot of the film surrounds infertility and the movie excels in showing a dystopian United Kingdom after 18 years of infertility. If I'm quite honest with you, Willard plays less like a brutal story of struggle and more like a dark comedy, how the CCA is made up of old senile retards, cigar-smoking pencil pushers, and outright insane ideological fanatics. Another point is how the two most prominent overseers are a French man with a silly accent and the generic Russian Bond villain.

Don't get me wrong I do enjoy playing on this server but at times it feels like I'm in a comedy skit rather than playing in a world run by an alien dictatorship. In Merlin's own word's "Half the fun of hl2rp is conflict." and I agree with this, HL2RP should be about the struggle, the conflict in surviving another day in a world torn apart. I do think comedy gives a balance however the server shouldn't get lost in those themes. I'm a fan of Merlin's vision of HL2RP, it feels like every person, every CCA Board member, and every CP has their own struggle with some doing morally dubious actions to save themselves but in the end, kill many.​

I don't like the purist vision of HL2RP which consists of: le generic industrial17 looking map, citizen wear bluesuit or die, and the over usage of 1984 posters. It's definitely the intended way (or at least before Half-Life: Alyx) for it to be made however it just gets boring. Willard has done a 180 from the much darker themes of Retail but in the end, almost makes it seem like the Combine are incompetent with the people in their high ranks.

I've learned a lot about HL2RP over the past year and I've come to appreciate Merlin's way of creating conflict. I think we easily brush over how Casto is a fucking mad man who has easily turned the entirety of Western Europe against him but in his actions he has started a conflict, he's a villain who is likable for being despicable.

If there's anything to take from this it's that there needs to be a balance with HL2rp, I really want to see the gritty nature of HL2, cops being corrupt so they can feed themselves, back alley casinos, gruesome gang wars, these all fit the criteria of being gritty, not for the sake of it but for the fact that everyone is in this perpetual struggle.

-Pawlu​

Couldn't have worded it better myself.

 

[Imperator RAD-X]

a French man with a silly accent​

Bonjour, Omer the Frenchman, here.

I'll give some clarification. That character was not made for comedic relief since I created the character for actually intending to have an impact and made a personal choice to add that accent. If it's somehow considered "silly", as in producing a negative vibe to the server, then it'll be difficult for when players that make roleplayed characters with accents would somehow considered not to be a fit within Serious RP. A city layered with multiple dialects including French, German, English and Italian will have something like this.

If you want me to tone the accent down, that's not a problem. It gets a pain typing it all out anyway LMAO
Un'eet

-----
I'll put the statement forth in here that if you're looking for grit in HL2RP - we've provided everyone all of the tools in order to do this themselves. Faction leads, players, staff, you name it. Everyone in the comments has the ability to do that and attribute to dystopia. Obviously there are systems in place that contribute to having it automated relating to dev-work with some mechanics, but you'll have to put dev suggestions in for the guys to look into that, specifically.

If a heavy dystopian feel to the server is wanted, well, I can definitely discuss with DeNuke and the Combine's faction leads regarding specific things and "how to be more gritty". But right now my schedule's kind of busy outside of the community server ATM, and with other things in the works that I'd like to focus on and gradually make the server a more darker experience, where you get to personally influence that. Just my time's being eaten up by online assessments and (I'm hoping to god there won't be) online exams.

Till then, we've all got to contribute to a status-quo change starting from minor details. Big things have small beginnings. If there's no purposeful beginning even with the most minor details, then it won't exactly be of benefit... regardless of how much 'dystopia' you're looking for.

With total respect to the guys that enjoyed what was mentioned about grit and dystopia relating to Kill City. Unmasked CPs in public, human dispatch, or these rather different things (weird to me but I can understand it from its point of view) in Occupation HL2RP - that won't fit the scope here for this reason: That happened because Breen died and the regime was collapsing across the planet in that said event. I won't miss those key details. Not exactly gritty, but rather HL2RP going full libertarian unless you throw in a couple of zombies and antlions with a patch of anarchy won't sit well with us.

It produced a great story about what I've heard regarding it and kudos to everyone that made that successful and enjoyed it - but trying that on Willard, as much as it would be an interesting social experiment (and I LOVE doing them)... it wouldn't end in a positive manner, at least predictably.

The forum may have half a dozen threads in quick succession blowing up in question if players saw CPs walking around in public areas, without masks, for all the citizens to see saying "YOOOO WAZZUP HOMIE" to the guys they're suppressing. It's an extremely vocal minority that want that radical idea, to a certain extent. Though I sympathise, there is a way to do it without it going total crazy... like a dead-zone in the slums where the biological signal the suits have is disrupted due to all the structures in such a condensed area, allowing people to take off their masks without being automatically pinged by the Combine. (Apparently this is already happening regarding masks, actually.)

Like said, if you truly want to deliver these changes, then start to be that change cause I'd love to be part of it too with each of you that want to do it.

As soon as I get back from LOA, I'll start trying to forge a direction where the freedom of RP you're looking for will be put to test in that regard. I've got a few ideas in mind - but nothing fully solidified in concrete. Same goes with the CCA if they want to push in acts, bills and reformations to certain laws that can be easily read and hopefully understood.

|||| I'll come out of LOA a little bit just to do exactly this. Time for the drawing board... ||||

 

[Cloudbucket]

I'm all for a gritty environment and atmosphere. In fact I would love to see more corruption, more beatings and inspections, and less people complaining about it.

However, let the story carry out naturally. Freedom of roleplay has recently made the city a mess (inspections, group beatings, riots, yada yada) that's pretty dang dystopian to me.

Of course we have the joke characters but let's be honest - would you play the server if you were restricted to a full time gritty environment? Maybe for some yes. But for me at least these characters provide wonderful experiences and a break from the norm of HL2RP.

So, how could players help influence the dystopian environment?

1) get together and riot
2) cops get handed beating quotas and are more pushy
3) rebels create conflicts with one another
4) CCA's create city problems with new policies that make life bad
5) organize these gangs
6) cops are a little more free oocly to be corrupt
7) MoC inspect stores harshly and starts to fine them for little things
8) you help create that dystopian environment

I can see what you mean @Merlinsclaw with this thread however. Some people are sometimes not serious when in serious situations and it is very frustrating. However it's up to the players to create that atmosphere and for admins to push that down on them (events that showcase the brutality)

 

[Merlinsclaw]

Here's one thing I'll clarify:

When I mean a 'dystopia', I don't mean dystopia for the sake of it. I don't mean, as Hiros said, having OTA gun down people for the sake of it. I mean a gritter and more serious version of HL2RP not the 1984RP.

And for what @Atle said, there's a fine line between quirky and joke characters. You are always going to have expressive, over-the-top characters. The setting gives us the ability to explore some of these characters. Like I said in the original post, there's a difference between a quirky character (ala rad-x's frenchman) or a character cracking a joke and a joke character. Problem is, there are alot of joke characters.

As others have said, 'gritty' and 'serious' HL2RP can be just as quirky and odd.

As for anything in this thread coming true? It'd take a shift in mentality to first 'promote' the mentality within factions and leadership. You'd have to change guides, enforce other shit, and find the fine line between some of these pieces while also promoting the new environment. Then it'd take initiative on the players' part to adjust to this shift.

 

[RogueSynapse]

The actual 'grit' and 'dystopian' aspect of the server should come not from the constant dispelling of faction oppressions, where you have CPs and OTA just being evil to everybody, but rather the entire world is stinking and rotten because that's how people are. Allow cops be dicks not because they are trying to grind SC or because they are 'fulfilling protocol in service to the Union' but because they can cave a citizens head in with a baseball bat without consequence because it's fun.

It's mentioned in the guides that the CCA and those apart of it play into 'cut throat politics' but where's the actual 'cut throat' part of that? I wanna see members of the CA betting on arena fights where anti-citizens are forced to beat each other to death under the false hope they will be given freedom if they win.

Fuck all this shit with everybody walking around the city smelling like roses and wearing shined shoes all the time, go start some fires man. Perhaps the reason we don't see this is because of the overbearing presence of Union factions and a lack of a proper free area for rebels to really go out.

 

[RogueSynapse]

Weren't you complaining after OTA blasted you for unauthorized speech and now you want more harsher CPs and everything. I don't see the point of your post.

Also that's not the grit we are talking about. That's just the age old issue of OTA being RP slayers.

 

[albertossic]

It's mentioned in the guides that the CCA and those apart of it play into 'cut throat politics' but where's the actual 'cut throat' part of that?

Spreadsheets

 

[RogueSynapse]

Until we get out Union Sanctioned Vortigaunts pit fights there can be no peace.

 

[emmet]

The actual 'grit' and 'dystopian' aspect of the server should come not from the constant dispelling of faction oppressions, where you have CPs and OTA just being evil to everybody, but rather the entire world is stinking and rotten because that's how people are. Allow cops be dicks not because they are trying to grind SC or because they are 'fulfilling protocol in service to the Union' but because they can cave a citizens head in with a baseball bat without consequence because it's fun.

It's mentioned in the guides that the CCA and those apart of it play into 'cut throat politics' but where's the actual 'cut throat' part of that? I wanna see members of the CA betting on arena fights where anti-citizens are forced to beat each other to death under the false hope they will be given freedom if they win.

Fuck all this shit with everybody walking around the city smelling like roses and wearing shined shoes all the time, go start some fires man. Perhaps the reason we don't see this is because of the overbearing presence of Union factions and a lack of a proper free area for rebels to really go out.

we're in a heavily loyal city. what do you expect? most people are t4+