Liam's Misuse of Warns

[RogueSynapse]

For the last few days, I have had a series of event characters create China-Town style street vendors that have sold clothing to the public in a unique way that supports the EST business scene. Today when I attempted to run the stall, I ran into a couple of issues. My stall was quickly flooded with citizens that were pasting /mes of them picking up the scripts and running away. This is HL2RP 101, you can't do this kinda stuff, you have to let people react. Because of the massive theft of scripts in this way, I had used my GM observer abilities to try to snag the names of the offenders who did this so I could report it to an admin on duty. Liam who was in the process of calling the police on my stand (which he is allowed to do) wasn't patient enough for me to wait for me to get their names and get back to IC matters. He warned me for going into observer to 'avoid consequences'. Despite the fact that this is clearly an event series designed for the players to enjoy and I get no benefit or gain or even loss from IC damages, Liam was eager to apply the warning despite the fact that I told him I would return IC once I got the names of the offenders.

He knew very clearly why I went into observer because of the convo we had in GM chat. I honestly have no idea why he was so hard pressed to slap a warn on me for something as silly and clear cut as this. I would have liked to resolve this before coming to the forums but Liam refused to speak with me anywhere else.

EDIT: When I returned IC and approached the police who came to investigate my stand, the icly said that they didn't even care to begin with so there weren't even any ic consequences to be had.

 

[TheGoodHunter]

honestly i dunno why staff are so harsh on creative team for literally anything. Vinyl at one point was a huge pain in the ass and my first impressions with him was just him yelling at CT and dictating on what they should and shouldn’t do lmao

jumping the gun on something like this is kinda stupid, especially since CPs didn’t even care about the whole situation so he got punished for non-existent consequences. i support this

 

[Vewoth]

I know Imperator Rad-X has addressed in his community message what might end up coming out as the underlying analysis of this post (condensed for relevance). "Warn first, ask questions later." Not really my place to comment on this, but I think the idea of what you're saying happened is something that is known to the staff. The only question then is Liam's side of things.

Hope everything works out.

2. Staff​

​

​

We also spoke about what some people in the community meeting brought up: "Ban first, ask questions later" mentalities. That was forefrontal for some, as it was an occurrence treating the guidelines as the Codex Astartes. The "Rule Zero" ban was felt to be weaponised in some capacity in the past as it was also brought up in the meeting.​

 

[Liam]

@RogueSynapse

Trying to twist the situation in your favor ain't going to work. You failed to mention how you deleted your stall before clipping away. You had no inentions of coming back, let's not pretend that's the case. I mean, even in your own screenshot you captured the moment where you gave in and decided to come back.

Other players did rob you, yes. But they did RP actions and you were busy fighting someone so, you wouldn't be able to stop them. (Fyi I was not the guy calling the cops)

Reason I warned you, is because you blatantly rage quit your own event and left the player you inciated a fight with disheartened and confused as he watched you clip away and delete your entire stall infront of his eyes as he called the cops. It left a sour taste in my mouth that a long running member of CT would act so unprofessionally and mingey and thus, I warned you for LTARP. I waited about five minutes for you to return, you did not. Very-very clear, you had simply rage quit. Even from your own evidence. I'd not be doing my role properly if I let you get away with this purley for being a GM.

I'd like to add, I do not appreciate you leaving out key details and twisting the story in order to...I guess gain support for your thread? And lying about your intentions? Either way, I won't be getting into some flame war here. My side is written. I wish you good luck with your report.

Edit: Also, make a report if someone mingegrabbed. I saw it and they didn't mingegrab at all. This is either an excuse because I caught you out or you are abusing your GM perms anyway...we have logs to get the names. You know you're only permitted to use your perms for event purposes.

 

[RogueSynapse]

You failed to mention how you deleted your stall before clipping away.

It's clear as crystal that I stated why I deleted my stand. I wasn't about to leave scripts open for more people to come up and swipe away.

you wouldn't be able to stop them

That's an ic matter that has nothing to do with the act of not waiting for a reaction. If they would have stayed for an additional /me of me failing to catch multiple grabs, it would have been fine.

blatantly rage quit

Trying to twist the story into this being a rage quit might have worked if it was on a character that I didn't just make mere minutes before the event because of the fact that it was an event character (which was stated multiple times). There is nothing to rage over?

left the player you inciated a fight with disheartened and confused as he watched you clip away and delete your entire stall infront of his eyes as he called the cops

Left them? The timeframe for me going into observer and returning back to the scene was so small that they were all still within close proximity. Even the cops that were called were waiting patiently. Again, card stacking by interjecting false and unspecified emotions into players involved to try to paint this as some abstraction is a waste of time seeings as how times and locations can be easily evaluated with the proper tools.

lying about your intentions

Again with the making stuff up. I clearly stated everything that I was doing in the GM chat which you refused to believe despite the fact that I granted any wish that you asked of me. I explained why I went into observer, I explain why I deleted my stand, I informed you that I would be returning to IC which I did, and you still for some reason thought it appropriate to warn me. You're grabbing at straws and for the life of me I can't understand why.

 

[Liam]

It's clear as crystal that I stated why I deleted my stand. I wasn't about to leave scripts open for more people to come up and swipe away.

This is my last message for real but, just pick up the scripts? Nah. Delete the whole build and panel you pasted incase the "minges" grab that too. Your point would make total sense if you just removed the items. But no. You deleted the entire build. Was your plan to come back and rebuild it? Repaste the panel too? That makes sense. I'd believe it too if you wern't an experienced GM. Bull - shit.

Also the rest of that nonsense above is quite creative. I'll just let whoever checks this run all the logs for time stamps to discredit it. Idk if you actually believe yourself or what but, that's certainly one intrestering and unique interpretation.

Have a good one.

 

[RogueSynapse]

This is my last message for real but, just pick up the scripts? Nah. Delete the whole build and panel you pasted incase the "minges" grab that too. Your point would make total sense if you just removed the items. But no. You deleted the entire build. Was your plan to come back and rebuild it? Repaste the panel too? That makes sense. I'd believe it too if you wern't an experienced GM. Bull - shit.

Have a good one.

Yes and the point still stands, if I'm trying to report information about rule breaker(s) to an admin on duty, it doesn't matter what part of the event I'm running, be it scripts, npcs, propping, whatever, if you're not able to GM over it or be present while players interact with it, it's best to suspend it until you can do so. Leaving stuff around is seldom a good idea, people have gotten in trouble over it before (See NPC complains and bridge collapse ordeals of 24 as a precedent ). Chances are that even if the scripts were gone, players still would have tried to interact with the stand. Instead of trying to dig though logs to figure out what people did while I was away, better to temporary remove the stand which takes a matter of seconds to put down considering it was only 4 props. You act like I took down a whole building.

What bothers me about this whole ordeal is that everyone involved had patience. The cops, the citizens, myself, all of us. Why can't you? I didn't even want to make a repot but you refused to try to work this out any other way.

 

[Liam]

Yes and the point still stands, if I'm trying to report information about rule breaker(s) to an admin on duty, it doesn't matter what part of the event I'm running, be it scripts, npcs, propping, whatever, if you're not able to GM over it or be present while players interact with it, it's best to suspend it until you can do so. Leaving stuff around is seldom a good idea, people have gotten in trouble over it before (See NPC complains and bridge collapse ordeals of 24 as a precedent ). Chances are that even if the scripts were gone, players still would have tried to interact with the stand. Instead of trying to dig though logs to figure out what people did while I was away, better to temporary remove the stand which takes a matter of seconds to put down considering it was only 4 props. You act like I took down a whole building.

What bothers me about this whole ordeal is that everyone involved had patience. The cops, the citizens, myself, all of us. Why can't you? I didn't even want to make a repot but you refused to try to work this out any other way.

Still never made that report btw. Citizens were gone and I'd waited. It's almost like your telling porky pies.

 

[Donavin Jones]

Bro don't waste your time on this server, people here suck ass at roleplay and whenever you try to do some good shit u're the one who always gets it in the ass. Honestly a waste of energy

Man don't say that, we already dire on players as is. Don't need your goofy ass spreading negativity.

But I'll say, there is no real way to know who is right and who is wrong. Liam is saying rogue is lying and LTARP'd, and Rogue is saying he removed his build to find the minge grabbers. Whats tough is, none of which provided 'good' evidence to support either parties claims. Unless you guys wanna chime in and send them here, if not. I think this is a cold case.

 

[The_Grass_Man]

Man don't say that, we already dire on players as is. Don't need your goofy ass spreading negativity.

But I'll say, there is no real way to know who is right and who is wrong. Liam is saying rogue is lying and LTARP'd, and Rogue is saying he removed his build to find the minge grabbers. Whats tough is, none of which provided 'good' evidence to support either parties claims. Unless you guys wanna chime in and send them here, if not. I think this is a cold case.

I'm green, made of grass, and naked. I'm the grinch bro

 

[RogueSynapse]

>Says they were gone from the scene before I returned.
>Literally went back into IC an approached the group, speaking to them verbally stating I was the one who ran the stand and was ready to face the 'consequences' he spoke of.
>Nobodycares.jpg
>Logs are documented along side locational positions on the map.

 

[RogueSynapse]

Bro stay on SS on god, atleast there u can make sure the players that participate can actually roleplay here on main we just wanna get usp script and bang bang some cps

Glory to you my brother.

 

[Rabithunter]

Locking this thread until a decision has been made. We will post again when we have a verdict.

 

[Robert]

Been looking at this, and here is my take as a CT Coordinator.

I have received all the logs and have been digging through it and thanks to @Votton I have got a well-established story of what happened; I was also present on the server on the day, letting you argue in GM chat during the whole thing.

Posting @Votton's message first:

I have read through this and see BOTH sides in the wrong here.

Liam I point out being wrong in the sense for not owning up to the fact he encouraged players to take action against Rogue ICly to steal his stuff from his illegeal setup, even going as far to allow the players to mingegrab despite being a STAFF member who should've stopped the players on the spot and froze them or got them to drop the items they minge-grabbed to ensure they properly RP it all. Also one thing not mentioned as stated by staff is the fact Rogue offered to talk with Liam in a VC to resolve it and Liam denied the offer, which just shows this could've been avoided.

Rogue is in the wrong too for removing his setup and not fully handling the situation correctly. Here I would say the props and items should've all stayed as they were and never removed. Nor should've popped into observer along with Liam to have the argument they did. He did a good job however in requesting a VC to resolve the situation but didn't get a chance.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/887781053564084284/1067889207537836132/image.png https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/887781053564084284/1067889251414442054/image.png https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/887781053564084284/1067889347040395366/image.png https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/887781053564084284/1067889447015813170/image.png https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/887781053564084284/1067889610438480012/image.png https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/887781053564084284/1067889714352369845/image.png https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/887781053564084284/1067890197863346256/image.png https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/887781053564084284/1067890351806894123/image.png https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/887781053564084284/1067890832855806012/image.png https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/887781053564084284/1067890871984455791/image.png

To add onto the top image, we got all the logs here, which further proves the above in how this situation ACTUALLY went down rather than what has been stated so far. I am quite frankly disappointed in both sides overall...

I am not going to go through all the logs individually because that would take a large amount of time, and I think people prefer summaries vs a massive breakdown of each log.

But to summarize, it seems once again, as I said above, both sides were in the wrong. The IC situation was still ongoing while everything was deleted, which is a no no in any situation, regardless of whether minge-grabbing is ongoing or not. It really does not matter. Secondly is the fact that Liam missed out on the context of the fact he encouraged these players to do this and failed to use his powers to fully stop the players from taking the action of minge-grabbing despite being staff, also outright denying a VC. Thirdly, was the issue with how both sides handled this whole situation in the end which could've been avoided.

 

[Votton]

Been looking at this, and here is my take as a CT Coordinator.

I have received all the logs and have been digging through it and thanks to @Votton I have got a well-established story of what happened; I was also present on the server on the day, letting you argue in GM chat during the whole thing.

Posting @Votton's message first:
View attachment 18538
I have read through this and see BOTH sides in the wrong here.

Liam I point out being wrong in the sense for not owning up to the fact he encouraged players to take action against Rogue ICly to steal his stuff from his illegeal setup, even going as far to allow the players to mingegrab despite being a STAFF member who should've stopped the players on the spot and froze them or got them to drop the items they minge-grabbed to ensure they properly RP it all. Also one thing not mentioned as stated by staff is the fact Rogue offered to talk with Liam in a VC to resolve it and Liam denied the offer, which just shows this could've been avoided.

Rogue is in the wrong too for removing his setup and not fully handling the situation correctly. Here I would say the props and items should've all stayed as they were and never removed. Nor should've popped into observer along with Liam to have the argument they did. He did a good job however in requesting a VC to resolve the situation but didn't get a chance.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/887781053564084284/1067889207537836132/image.png https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/887781053564084284/1067889251414442054/image.png https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/887781053564084284/1067889347040395366/image.png https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/887781053564084284/1067889447015813170/image.png https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/887781053564084284/1067889610438480012/image.png https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/887781053564084284/1067889714352369845/image.png https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/887781053564084284/1067890197863346256/image.png https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/887781053564084284/1067890351806894123/image.png https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/887781053564084284/1067890832855806012/image.png https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/887781053564084284/1067890871984455791/image.png

To add onto the top image, we got all the logs here, which further proves the above in how this situation ACTUALLY went down rather than what has been stated so far. I am quite frankly disappointed in both sides overall...

I am not going to go through all the logs individually because that would take a large amount of time, and I think people prefer summaries vs a massive breakdown of each log.

But to summarize, it seems once again, as I said above, both sides were in the wrong. The IC situation was still ongoing while everything was deleted, which is a no no in any situation, regardless of whether minge-grabbing is ongoing or not. It really does not matter. Secondly is the fact that Liam missed out on the context of the fact he encouraged these players to do this and failed to use his powers to fully stop the players from taking the action of minge-grabbing despite being staff, also outright denying a VC. Thirdly, was the issue with how both sides handled this whole situation in the end which could've been avoided.

UPDATE:
I've VCd with Rogue and RAD together and here's some further clarification regarding the case and personal views once again like the screenshot posted by Robert earlier trying to understand these events.

The reason why Rogue deleted the props was due to panicking, as people started to mass steal the clothing scripts, as some people didn't roleplay their actions properly, instead would grab something and minge run away not allowing any time to roll or react properly, which is why there was the LOOC mess of Rogue trying to correct one of the players grabbing an item and why the rolls happened with another character which wasn't Liam's to correct the RP.

The stall has been running for several days as his own CT event due to the new clothing update and generally there not being that many businesses around at the time, so it was an opportunity for people to try out the new clothing in-game and purchase. The stall was officially illegal, but in the prior days of the event there have been authorities such as the CPs who have come around to nudge regarding it but didn't take down the stall for the sake of RP and providing people with the opportunity, Rogue wasn't generally against people stealing any scripts or taking down the stall if it was properly roleplayed IC.

I do not know all the players who were involved in this stealing in general, but it was essentially rather heavily encouraged by Liam's character (Sally) in the end from what it looks like due to being an illegal business and if noticed any minge grabbing going on, should have interfered properly, so the IC moment/event could carry on as normal. I'll clarify here for the sake of it too that members of CT aren't staff members, so they should solely deal with events, narrative and gamemastering pretty much, while the staff deals with the actual rule enforcement.

I do think that both were still in the wrong, but this is a situation that could have been avoided entirely when observing the situation as a staff member making sure everybody roleplays properly or through VC aftermath, which is what Rogue had offered. On Liam's part, he should have provided logs for context (The full context as possible), as it's unnecessary work for others to try to figure out what's going on and would allow a more proper conversation here in this thread explaining the situation out, than having to go by pure claims what happened in-game, when that is not needed. This is something that would apply to all staff members as they have the ability to provide logs for any scenario they were involved in or if they are dealing with other cases that happened in-game. The in-game log system can be used to find rather precise details whenever needed.

I'll note as well that all of this is just my personal findings when looking at the logs myself through the web panel and my own personal view regarding the matter. The final conclusion will be done by @NIXeighteen as the Head of Staff. I'm a CM in the end who manages Willard as a whole nowadays communicating with the other communities we run and dealing with the tech/dev side of things too, so this is purely an outside perspective and I lack the full context as I wasn't there on the server when this situation happened, but once again these are on the basis of the logs and the VC.

Some screenshots provided by @RogueSynapse to show what the stall was and showing the rough size of the stall:


A screenshot of Liam stealing a script as well from the stall similar to how some other players had stolen scripts for instance but Rogue wasn't given an opportunity to stop the stealing such as a roll, this is something that supposedly happened with other players involved in this situation and one of the players ended up rolling with @RogueSynapse after he pointed it out in LOOC as I mentioned earlier in this post.
Reposting the screenshot where Rogue had for example rolled with a another player properly:

 

[Liam]

Liam I point out being wrong in the sense for not owning up to the fact he encouraged players to take action against Rogue ICly to steal his stuff from his illegeal setup, even going as far to allow the players to mingegrab despite being a STAFF member who should've stopped the players on the spot and froze them or got them to drop the items they minge-grabbed to ensure they properly RP it all.

Will add, yes, I forgot to mention my encouragment of people IC which is entirely my fault and unprofessional of me, kinda forgot as my character is just a bit of a "wind up" sometimes. She had no real intention of closing his stall, she just thought it'd be funny to incite some people and I didn't rlly give it a second thought. However, I did not purposefully allow anyone to mingegrab. I personally didn't see anything as the chat was popping off quite quickly and I wasn't even looking at the items on the stall for the most part. However, I will say I tend to go by a p2l standard. Usually I'd agree with a roll and all that but, when I stole the shoes for example, rogue had ran off down the street for a moment, so, there was no one to stop me. As for the other players, rogue was too busy grabbing someone with his back to the stall and getting elbowed in the face by someone. In my opionion, it'd be unrealistic that he'd be able to do a 180 and try to stop someone behind him, taking something he hasn't even got sight line on, while being hit in the face. I saw no feesible way for Rogue to have been able to counter in any sense whatsoever, so I did not make players roll.

Though as I said before, I don't know for certain if every single person /me'd. I saw one or two and glossed over them, but I wasn't paying attention fully from a staff oversight type position as I was IC as well as the fact of the above mentioned of me genuinley believeing there was no chance for Rogue to realistically stop these people anyway due to how everything was playing out.

Edit: Oh and about the VC thing, I could have accepted it certainly, but I didn't feel obliged to. It was late and I wasn't in the mood for a potential argument. I figured it was best for both parties to take a moment and discuss it calmly here.

All this being said, I stand by the fact that removing the stall and observering away was wrong of rogue, but I take back my accusations of rage and bad faith. I do believe he had good intentions in mind with all I have read here after the fact. I'm happy to retract the warn and have it deleted and just leave it as a verbal. Especially because my conduct was a little..."blunt force" and unfiltered, which I admit is one of my faults sometimes. Something I think staff should avoid, yet I accidently fall into the trap myself on occassion. I can't help but not enitely agree if I had gone about this differently, drama would have been avoided. So, I hold my hands up to that part.

 

[NIXeighteen]

It looks like this is all taken care of. Both sides had their chance to argue and say they're sorry. Thread closed.