Implemented Loyalist Discounts

[AdamCF]

The loyalist guide says this:

Although, in Willard v1, no-one ever did this. Discounts weren't really a thing. So, how can we solve this? Ayo made a google docs document on it, which is a good starting point. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1lFCYB94NjSpzt_pdXtMbZDBlU9lg4YZtmz49vbQcraE/edit

Though, this has some flaws. Most notably the compensation given to store owners. It essentially puts more money into the economy. But people won't like losing sixty credits just because a tier six collaborator walked through the door. There's only two solutions to this: Remove the discount entirely, or have a mandatory yet low discount. I'm suggesting we have a mandatory but reasonable collaborator discount.

Tier 1 and Tier 2 would receive a 5% discount from stores, Tier 3 and 4 would get 10%, and Tier 5 and 6 with 15%. This is not nearly as harmful as having to give a loyalist 50% off an item, resulting in a pretty heavy loss.

If you removed the compensation in ayo's system, you'd force store owners to increase their regular prices by 50% in order to avoid losses when dealing with high tier loyalists. Regular citizens might not like this too much, and it doesn't allow a whole lot of freedom when setting your prices.
Although, with a 15% mandatory discount on tier 6 loyalists, all you need to do is increase your prices by 15% and you're guaranteed not to lose money on a sale. That's not nearly as much of a leap as 50% would be, and means compensation isn't required. Unlike the 50%, it allows you to be more free with how you set your prices. You aren't restricted to >150% if you want to avoid losses.

Lastly, more reasons to be loyal.

I'm not 100% on this myself tbh, so ways to improve this in the replies would be great. But, I think some sort of mandatory discount is required, at least for high tier loyalists. Sorry if this is a bit rant-y or whatever.

 

[Gazzpacho]

What the hell

 

[Gr4Ss]

@Lord Beckett @Dazor

 

[Bodger]

From what I can remember on Willard V1, loyalism wasn't too visible if at all. And I personally don't think that discounts should be mandatory but heavily encouraged.

Here's my idea:
With the new apartment/shop system and CCA-like data pads for CWU management of stores, along with the now actual policy of checking store activity, people should be encouraged to give loyalists discounts through taxes/business payments. You give loyalists discounts? Pay less tax. Less taxes means less expenses, less expenses means more profit to outweigh the discounts.

This could also happen in tiers, say giving only party members discounts would be a basic tax-break, giving all loyalists discounts would be a heavy tax-break. And then everything in-between, with people who are say tier 3 loyalists or low-level party members, they might not give lower tier loyalists a discount but because of their status and the discounts on higher tier loyalists/party members, they get a medium tax-break.

 

[AdamCF]

From what I can remember on Willard V1, loyalism wasn't too visible if at all. And I personally don't think that discounts should be mandatory but heavily encouraged.

Here's my idea:
With the new apartment/shop system and CCA-like data pads for CWU management of stores, along with the now actual policy of checking store activity, people should be encouraged to give loyalists discounts through taxes/business payments. You give loyalists discounts? Pay less tax. Less taxes means less expenses, less expenses means more profit to outweigh the discounts.

This could also happen in tiers, say giving only party members discounts would be a basic tax-break, giving all loyalists discounts would be a heavy tax-break. And then everything in-between, with people who are say tier 3 loyalists or low-level party members, they might not give lower tier loyalists a discount but because of their status and the discounts on higher tier loyalists/party members, they get a medium tax-break.

This is pretty nice. Only flaw I can really see is it may overcomplicate things. How do you know if someone's really been giving out discounts? We gonna have the IRS kicking down your front door for tax fraud?

 

[Lord Beckett]

"Reasonable" can mean a different method for each store. You could use actual discounts to prices, credit systems, separate price levels, etc... Discounts don't have to be crazy either. I'd say 15% would be the upper limit for that type of system. A few tokens off for T4 members and a bit more substantial for T5 and T6. Reimbursement would probably not be feasible since that requires tons of paperwork and opens the possibility of abuse. A small discount for a small group of people isn't going to bankrupt your business.

 

[Bodger]

This is pretty nice. Only flaw I can really see is it may overcomplicate things. How do you know if someone's really been giving out discounts? We gonna have the IRS kicking down your front door for tax fraud?

Well shops are gonna be checked for activity, and so prices can be checked there. Then you look at the transaction history as it's all centralized under the Combine and if they gave discounts to loyalists. Maybe a system can be put in place to mark a discount with the transaction thing store owners have. Just put in the regular price and if it's a loyalist mark it as a discount sale which automatically removes the percentage input from the charge. Owner can input the discount amount themselves if they want to add a discount for a specific person for more or for certain tiers, etc.
This will all be kept in a log that people with the CCA tablet thing for store management can access and view. That's how I'd see it working if it was implemented. If not @Pineapple will just need help from staff to check transactions and whatnot for discounts

 

[dno]

This guy really be stealing my documents, ay?
**spits

Okay. Now in all seriousness I don't use the reply system on the forums because its [Offensive Word] so I'll be just quoting with the name.

"If you removed the compensation in ayo's system, you'd force store owners to increase their regular prices by 50% in order to avoid losses when dealing with high tier loyalists." Adam'sGF

Yes. Not everyone marks their items up by *A LOT*. If a store that sells something like coffee (currently 6 credits) for a credit or two above the tab menu price, they'll be loosing money when they serve certain tiers. The system thats currently in place seems like it was just basic elevator talk with no thoughts on what happens afterwards. "Store owners give loyalists discounts" verse "Store owners give loyalists discounts, and receive compensation". Which one sounds more thought out? I know, the 2nd one. All I'm saying is that compensation wouldn't hurt. If the CCA would want store owners to push a loyalty bonus in their stores they wouldn't make it negative to the owner supporting it.

"Reimbursement would probably not be feasible since that requires tons of paperwork and opens the possibility of abuse." CCA guy

Bro? You're basically saying "I don't wanna do it because its work". You took the title of CCA lead. You shouldn't just reject ideas because "too much work". The owner gives you a sheet, you compensate. If they don't reach the date, or give the sheet at all; sucks for them, no money. I don't see why ideas should be turned down because you have to look through a short spreadsheet lol. I will draw out a transcript with 2 outcomes.

Me: *hands spreadsheet of the week/monthly discounts given*
CCA guy:
*reads through it, and compensates* OR *sees discrepancies, informs BOI (giving them something to do)*
​

"How do you know if someone's really been giving out discounts? We gonna have the IRS kicking down your front door for tax fraud?" Adam'sC(a)F(e)

CrimeRP lol, if someone wants to commit fraud that adds to CrimeRP. The only CimeRP I've really seen on first launch is when the Italians tried to extort people. This is an opportunity to embezzle and create some illegal income. Its risky of course, but that's because its supposed to be done.

"A small discount for a small group of people isn't going to bankrupt your business." BBeckett

You're still forcing citizens to promote a system that gives them a loss, and no gain. Lol.


"Well shops are gonna be checked for activity, and so prices can be checked there. Then you look at the transaction history as it's all centralized under the Combine and if they gave discounts to loyalists. Maybe a system can be put in place to mark a discount with the transaction thing store owners have. Just put in the regular price and if it's a loyalist mark it as a discount sale which automatically removes the percentage input from the charge. Owner can input the discount amount themselves if they want to add a discount for a specific person for more or for certain tiers, etc.
This will all be kept in a log that people with the CCA tablet thing for store management can access and view. That's how I'd see it working if it was implemented. If not @Pineapple will just need help from staff to check transactions and whatnot for discounts" - Booger

I like this reply a lot. Firstly, you got some great ideas, but they've been discussed before. Whilst I was assisting in the economy fiasco, @Atle said there would be no system that would allow admins to check logs to see what someone ordered and how much they ordered. But your idea of activity checks is something that should be taken note of, if CCA actually investigated the discount sheets given to them they could use the CP's/BOI to investigate and look into the stores. Determine if fraud is happening, check if the stores are actually giving the discounts out, and so on. Activity checks, investigations, and keeping overall records of the stores would totally be something possible.

 

[Gr4Ss]

I still do not see how needing to give a 10% discount will raise prices by 50%, or cause you to operate at a loss assuming your price margin is at least 10% (but honestly if your price margin is less, there is nothing which says you can't also reduce the discount). You all are acting as if you are being forced to give a 70% discount or something. Beckett already said max would/should be around 15%, which is for T6's of which there will be 2-3 in the entire server. Typically also the type of loyalist to have enough money to just tip you as well because they have no use for the money themselves (back in LP I basically always had a store round up to the nearest multiple of 10 and had them 'keep the change', because what the fuck would I do with my growing fortune of 40k+ tokens otherwise?).

Coffee that costs a store 6 to buy -> sell it for 8 to civies, 7 to T4/5+ loyalists, boom discount criteria met (whopping 12.5% discount even!)
Same coffee, but you sell to normal people for 7? Sell to a loyalist for 6 so you break even.
How are you being fucked into a loss? Nobody is even mandating you to have a certain price. Nobody is mandating you round your price down. Hell, you could even just use it to encourage loyalists to buy more so the total is big enough for there to be an actual discount that doesn't get rounded away, netting you more money in the end.

Currently the transaction logging system (and the transaction system as a whole) does not even support proper business audits. There is no concept of a receipt, good sold/received or anything like that. Without diving deep into the logs (which frankly nobody is going to do for a system like this), we simply do not know what you are selling. We only really know who you are selling to and what they are paying, and that is it. Would manually need to track down if he's a loyalist and which tier. But we still don't know the original price, so you can claim you gave him whatever discount you want.

It is a stupid system that just makes all the money loyalists earn pump more money into circulation by some bored CCA character leafing through spreadsheets and just saying 'okay' because he doesn't care with barely any sink to get it out again. Giving a loyalist 20 credits on his ration now turns into 25 credits being pumped into circulation if he spends it all at a store (20 from ration + 5 from discount refund assuming 20% was given on a purchase of 25 credits). The ration machine is already absurd, please do not make it even more absurd.

Or suggest something to counterbalance the extra money... Oh, yes, maybe we can tax stores on every single credit transfer (call it VAT) and basically force them to give up 10% on ALL their incoming rather than just 10% on loyalists. Tack on payment fees, rent for the POS terminal, delivery fee on ordered goods, profit taxes, contributions for waste disposal, employee social security contributions (CMU doesn't pay for itself in the end), utilities, administration fees for permits, health and safety certification requirements (which only the CWU can do, and will charge you for of course), ... CCA got to earn that money to pay for hookers all these discount compensations.

 

[Sagsworth]

Compulsory discounts > More credits in rations (especially if you choose the discount, -1 credits* cost to any purchase is legal under this system)

Bureaucracy is generally bad and disruptive to roleplay though, so be careful about imposing complicated systems on shop owners. You want things to be as accessible as possible to promote activity, every barrier you put up between someone being a citizen and owning a shop that acts as an RP hub has an impact. So avoid complicated taxes and auditing processes that just disrupt roleplay. Honestly, the most important question for whether a shop should exist is "does it provide roleplay". If the answer is yes, then fantastic.

 

[AdamCF]

I still do not see how needing to give a 10% discount will raise prices by 50%

Not sure anyone said that, so I'll clarify what I meant if you're talking about me.
Ayo suggested 50% discounts for T6s, which would mean you'd need to raise your prices by at least ~50% to still break even.
I'm saying that a 10% to 15% max discount would mean you'd only need to raise your prices by ~10% to 15%, which is much more reasonable and the majority of people already do this.

But, if I understand you correctly: You're on the side of "Low discounts, no compensation/refund for store owners" which I fully agree with

 

[dno]

"But, if I understand you correctly: You're on the side of "Low discounts, no compensation/refund for store owners" which I fully agree with" BadamCF
Traitor!
*spits*

Bro Idk what Grass said, i'm not reading an essay. But all I gotta say is loyalism is cool and all, but let shop keeps commit tax fraud. Theres no CrimeRP from what I saw in the first launch, it'd be cool to be able to do something that isnt selling shit. The Italians had extortion but they were ass at it.

 

[AdamCF]

"But, if I understand you correctly: You're on the side of "Low discounts, no compensation/refund for store owners" which I fully agree with" BadamCF
Traitor!
*spits*

Bro Idk what Grass said, i'm not reading an essay. But all I gotta say is loyalism is cool and all, but let shop keeps commit tax fraud. Theres no CrimeRP from what I saw in the first launch, it'd be cool to be able to do something that isnt selling shit. The Italians had extortion but they were ass at it.

The issue with your thing is that it pumps more and more money into the economy and it'd be impossible to verify how much you should be compensated

 

[Robert]

This has been a dead convo for a while. So going to help come to conclusion that this is overall a mix. From what I understood, stores only need to give some form of discount to loyalists... as for what this discount is... it can be whatever the store owner decides. If the store owner wants to give a T4 a 5% discount go ahead, if the store wants to simply just remove 1 credit from a item then they can as well.

Ultimately, this way the discounts are at the discretion of the Stores. All they need to do is provide them. Any losses they choose to make from giving massive discounts of their own volition is their price of pay, not the cities nor its Administration. This is the idea from what I understand it so far already. You can easily choose to give T4 5% discount, T5 gets 10% discount and 15% discount for T6. It can be as simple as that and like Beckett said once already, 15% would probs be the upper limit of the discounts, thus meaning the stores shouldn't lose much at all. They will still overall be generating a profit the entire time.

I will throw this into Accepted for now as it seems the goal of this post was for removing or adding mandatory discounts. If I am wrong, then please DM me on discord to mention @AdamCF