My (Hot?) Take On Loyalists

[RedHotGinger]

TIME DR. FREEMAN?
IS IT REALLY THAT TIME AGAIN?


In true modern sequel fashion, I am just going to get right into and not bother with any setup or foundation laying for this newest ramble.

THE CORE ISSUES WITH LOYALISM

The biggest single issue that Willards concept of loyalism smacks headlong into a wall with, is the benefits that come with it. The tangible and notable rewards that are what possibly drive you to potentially turning your back on everything and everyone for a bigger piece of whatever is left of the pie. As of current, loyalists, even of the highest tiers, have less rights than even some Enslaved Vortigaunts do. The best part, that is not hyperbole. That is a literal statement that is in no way satirical...just to lay out how bad the system has honestly become.

Before branching off into suggestions or conceptual reworks, I want to touch up on what is actually already emplaced. So, in the spirit of things, lets look at the hypothetical benefits that are listed for loyalists in the official guide itself. I'm going to be doing this with as much brevity as possible, while also ignoring all Tiers below 3. This is because in a system that doesn't matter, Tier 1-2 loyalists matter even less.
​

Guide:
RED - Complete vapor in practice/Simply useless in practicality
YELLOW - Situational and rarely initiated/Poorly enforced/Not very useful
GREEN - Upheld and commonly implemented/Generally useful

---

Tier Three:

-Some free refreshments and food courtesy of the CCA (Request via communion)	Personally, I have only done it once and had it denied. Gonna just put this in Green as I cannot imagine its common for this to happen outside of the current event.
-Extra Credits from rations.	Literally an encoded system.
-Allowed to enter a civil partnership with those of similar tier level (Request via communion)	As far as I know, we don't have a single one of these.
-A yellow armband.	Exists only to get your ass-whooped if you forget to wear it.
- Ability to report Civil Protection Units	Good fucking luck, sport. Even T6 loyalists are at the mercy of Civil Protection. Getting the information is hard enough, if you even get that far.

---

Tier Four:

-Authorization to wear Informal Collaborator suit jacket. (Request via communion)	Not much to say. Upheld and makes you stand out.
-Ability to move into Loyalist Housing.	Loyalist housing is nearly, if not completely, identical to its standard counterpart. Only tangible benefit is being closer to the nexus, if you really want to count that.
-Priority selection for volunteer opportunities, in context with other tiered loyalists.	Can only go off of personal experience for this one. Been kicked out of events before as a T6 for being a femchar. While funny - does not seem enforced.
-Businesses are expected to give members of the Collaborator’s Party a reasonable discount.	I'm going to be generous/an asshole and give this a yellow, but some of the discount rates I have seen are laughable. Not exactly sure how it works, but mostly seems to be just a few credits.
-Access to Collaborator-Only merchandise in businesses. (Luxury Products)	Checks out
-Mandatory priority medical treatment from medical establishments.	Very rare for CMU to be in a state of Triage. Mostly is so due to lack of doctors online. Will not put that one either faction though, and just chalk this up to flavor text.
-Preferential work cycle positions at the discretion of Civil Protection.	Gonna Green it, as I imagine this is upheld.
-Possession of safes and coffee machines.	Safes are expensive as shit. Coffee is cool though.
-Able to attend Loyalist functions.	Not going to be that guy and hop on peoples nuts for not making many loyalist events. They are much harder to make than NPC spawn rebel events. But...still...
-A blue armband.	Exists only to get your ass beat for forgetting to wear it.
-Will be exempt from random block inspections.	Been forced into multiple block inspections as a Tier 6 along with others.
-Will have priority during ration cycles	Pretty Situational. Only happens in response to events. However, when it does come into play, it is very useful. Otherwise rations are just a free-for-all anyway.

---

Tier Five:

-Priority service from businesses. (Skipping Lines, served food first, etc.)	Flavorful enough for me to just give it a pass. Yeah, pretty uncommon, but it adds something for what it is.
-Preferential work-cycle treatment.	Personal experience says no. But, going to yellow as I am sure its at least partially upheld.
-Ability to request a meeting with a Tier 6, Director, Rank Leader, and Minister.	While this is by itself seemingly useful, as will be discussed later, the complete lack of influence and power held by loyalists negates its purpose.
-A green armband.	Exists only to get your ass beat for forgetting to wear it.
-Will not be prosecuted for blue transgressions unless authorized by Overwatch, Combine Civil Authority or Rank Leader or above Civil Protection units.	Very, very up in the air. Many CP's intentionally target loyalists, so the answer will typically be 'yes.' Even if the cause is fairly stupid.
-Will hold immunity to terminal verdicts until reviewed by Rank Leaders, Overwatch, or Combine Civil Authority.	Same deal

---

Tier Six:

-Ability to “request” Civil Protection bodyguards. (Not guaranteed)	Loyalists are forbidden from entering any potentially dangerous areas by default. On top of the fact CP's are likely to say no.
-Authorization to wear formal Loyalist suit (Request via communion)	Checks out. Simple as.
-May be brought into the Nexus at times of crisis.	Probably applies. Never really useful - but I won't knock this particular one for that.
-Able to request meetings with a Core CCA member (VA & CA included which can be requested via communion)	Just a worse version of its previous self. You have absolutely zero pull with these people and cannot reasonably just stop by to say hello. There is nearly zero reason to do this outside of the most abnormal circumstances.
-Priority Medical Treatment. Can receive preemptive surgery for conditions and whatnot such as eyesight recovery, medication for non-threatening annoyances, etc.	CMU accommodates this kind of stuff, so fair enough.
-Can request an Enslaved Vortigaunt for cleaning and other issues deemed valuable enough for use.	Probably checks out. Though, not sure how this conflicts with loyalist vorts.
-Ability to opt-out of work-cycles.	Pretty much, yes.
-Mandatory preferential treatment at any UU establishment.	Going to put this as red, simply because it steps into the territory of inherent respect, which loyalists do not, and cannot command.
-A white armband.	Exists only to get your ass beat for forgetting to wear it.
-May not be prosecuted for blue and orange level transgressions unless authorized by Overwatch, Combine Civil Administration, or Rank Leader or higher Civil Protection units. -Can be prosecuted for red transgressions or higher, but they will not be issued a terminal verdict until authorized by Captains of Civil Protection, Overwatch or Combine Civil Administration.	Same as the other one.

---

(The above is based partially off of personal experience and what I have heard.)

Suggestions and practical solutions:

Putting Civil Protection in its place

This is a fairly common and obvious one, but an important one all the same. A good chunk of oppression and suffering will invariably come from the hands of Civil Protection, who either by necessity or malice will uphold combine law. As of now, even the most basic unit is treated as a Tier 7 citizen. Someone who can bully all other tiers with impunity and shut down any and all efforts they engage in if they so choose.
Food chain should probably be something like this:

RCT < I5 < T4 < I4 < I3 < T5 < I2 < I1 < T6 < RL etc...
(Notes: This does not mean loyalists of higher standing can just outright ignore CP's or break laws before them, but it is to say, they have a degree of influence laid before them. Able to punish them for poor treatment, inspire favorable treatment for allies, speak openly before them etc. T3's were left off the list as so much of the population is of this level it would destabilize things)​

---

Gaining Influence:

This is a broad stroke, no doubt. But, I believe there is room for high tiers to be included in certain decision making regarding the city. No, I do not mean some pointless delegation as to whether or not loyalists should wear armbands on the right or left arm. I mean tangible, important things. Rather than have dime store event characters be the ones initiating special projects and the like alone, make a use for that massive waste of space in the CCA building.
Have meetings that include T5 + loyalists to confer and deliberate actions in the face of events/struggles etc.

Allow loyalists to get away with genuinely fucking up Underclass people (but not physically disabling), or muscling those not within the party itself. At least in theory. Allow them to order CP's to re-educate those who piss them off. Things like that.​

---

Let them Breathe

The legislation that confined all loyalists permanently to Victory and Triumph, without any legal loopholes or ways about it, was dumb since day one. Why it persists is honestly beyond me. It deprives the entire server of RP. Stop treating the Slums like its the damned outlands. Its literally apart of the city.

Allow loyalists to enter freely at certain levels, with high tier loyalists able to do so with Civil Protection (Or OTA if need be, such as during low Sociostability) ((Yeah, I just said that. HLA confirmed OTA actively patrol, so its not actually an insane suggestion)) escorts.​

---

Introduce a little anarchy:

To be fair, this one is a spitball, but adding a loyalist smuggler who deals in chips may be beneficial. Allowing them to engage in illicit trade without instantly getting ripped to shreds by the DOB or some other faction. Place it in that little grassland area that is never used, and have him sell useful goods for citizens, not so much standard weapon crap. It will give loyalists the possibility to engage in illicit activity without being inherent rebels.​

---

I aint got time to grind:

This one is the most...open ended. Everyone agrees the loyalist grind is quite awful (by far worse than anything the rebels have ever had to endure.) I honestly do not have an exact solution to this problem. However, step one is to not make it worse by expanding it into other tiers. If anything, what it needs is an extended roster of deeds that allow for smaller rewards, but greater opportunity.

Perhaps setting up some sort of general reward system for citizens who act with valor (or idiocy) in the face of danger to defend the Combines rule.
Have low level loyalists handle the advent of setting up and planning events - as a sort of labor they have to endure to really prove themselves to the party.
Maybe encourage shit like pro-combine rallies and the like. Mildly reward those who partake in them?

This one is a toughie, no doubt. But, maybe some other people can come up with more varied ways of expanding the system.



Okay, before management bans me for speaking out too much, this is going to be the last of such posts for some time. I hit the rebels, and since some even talked about the damaged concept of loyalism in that thread, I figured I may as well hit both corners of the board before calling it quits (for now). This, like the other thread, is mostly here to open an orderly conversational ground, and is not innately a suggestion. Hence why I put it in discussion rather than development. I don't claim to know everything, and the system for all its faults, is expansive. As such, I could have missed stuff or been mistaken on things within the post itself.

Be nice. Don't be gay and start insulting people. You know the drill. Tagging the CCA boys themselves as this obviously pertains to them pretty heavily. @Furious @Noodle
That is all gamers.
​

 

[Merlinsclaw]

Ok yeah. No super hot takes and I mostly agree with it.

The main problem is removing the grind. I kinda said that with the Gradient post I made a while back.

Basically I think the best model is simple:

- Have a group of CCA members that can easily ascend or derank loyalists on a whim.
- Loyalism becomes easier to get into. You approach the CCA, join the Party, and then actually collaborate with the Board to ascend.
- Real Loyalism vs. Conformity issue gets solved by actually collaborating with the Board.
- Make Loyalism a little more interesting if you know what I mean...

 

[Sagsworth]

fuck armbands

loyalists get tattoos now

you can't hide your loyalism, it'll stay with you forever

 

[ShadoWiz4rd]

TIME DR. FREEMAN?
IS IT REALLY THAT TIME AGAIN?


In true modern sequel fashion, I am just going to get right into and not bother with any setup or foundation laying for this newest ramble.

THE CORE ISSUES WITH LOYALISM

The biggest single issue that Willards concept of loyalism smacks headlong into a wall with, is the benefits that come with it. The tangible and notable rewards that are what possibly drive you to potentially turning your back on everything and everyone for a bigger piece of whatever is left of the pie. As of current, loyalists, even of the highest tiers, have less rights than even some Enslaved Vortigaunts do. The best part, that is not hyperbole. That is a literal statement that is in no way satirical...just to lay out how bad the system has honestly become.

Before branching off into suggestions or conceptual reworks, I want to touch up on what is actually already emplaced. So, in the spirit of things, lets look at the hypothetical benefits that are listed for loyalists in the official guide itself. I'm going to be doing this with as much brevity as possible, while also ignoring all Tiers below 3. This is because in a system that doesn't matter, Tier 1-2 loyalists matter even less.
​

Guide:
RED - Complete vapor in practice/Simply useless in practicality
YELLOW - Situational and rarely initiated/Poorly enforced/Not very useful
GREEN - Upheld and commonly implemented/Generally useful

---

Tier Three:

-Some free refreshments and food courtesy of the CCA (Request via communion)	Personally, I have only done it once and had it denied. Gonna just put this in Green as I cannot imagine its common for this to happen outside of the current event.
-Extra Credits from rations.	Literally an encoded system.
-Allowed to enter a civil partnership with those of similar tier level (Request via communion)	As far as I know, we don't have a single one of these.
-A yellow armband.	Exists only to get your ass-whooped if you forget to wear it.
- Ability to report Civil Protection Units	Good fucking luck, sport. Even T6 loyalists are at the mercy of Civil Protection. Getting the information is hard enough, if you even get that far.

---

Tier Four:

-Authorization to wear Informal Collaborator suit jacket. (Request via communion)	Not much to say. Upheld and makes you stand out.
-Ability to move into Loyalist Housing.	Loyalist housing is nearly, if not completely, identical to its standard counterpart. Only tangible benefit is being closer to the nexus, if you really want to count that.
-Priority selection for volunteer opportunities, in context with other tiered loyalists.	Can only go off of personal experience for this one. Been kicked out of events before as a T6 for being a femchar. While funny - does not seem enforced.
-Businesses are expected to give members of the Collaborator’s Party a reasonable discount.	I'm going to be generous/an asshole and give this a yellow, but some of the discount rates I have seen are laughable. Not exactly sure how it works, but mostly seems to be just a few credits.
-Access to Collaborator-Only merchandise in businesses. (Luxury Products)	Checks out
-Mandatory priority medical treatment from medical establishments.	Very rare for CMU to be in a state of Triage. Mostly is so due to lack of doctors online. Will not put that one either faction though, and just chalk this up to flavor text.
-Preferential work cycle positions at the discretion of Civil Protection.	Gonna Green it, as I imagine this is upheld.
-Possession of safes and coffee machines.	Safes are expensive as shit. Coffee is cool though.
-Able to attend Loyalist functions.	Not going to be that guy and hop on peoples nuts for not making many loyalist events. They are much harder to make than NPC spawn rebel events. But...still...
-A blue armband.	Exists only to get your ass beat for forgetting to wear it.
-Will be exempt from random block inspections.	Been forced into multiple block inspections as a Tier 6 along with others.
-Will have priority during ration cycles	Pretty Situational. Only happens in response to events. However, when it does come into play, it is very useful. Otherwise rations are just a free-for-all anyway.

---

Tier Five:

-Priority service from businesses. (Skipping Lines, served food first, etc.)	Flavorful enough for me to just give it a pass. Yeah, pretty uncommon, but it adds something for what it is.
-Preferential work-cycle treatment.	Personal experience says no. But, going to yellow as I am sure its at least partially upheld.
-Ability to request a meeting with a Tier 6, Director, Rank Leader, and Minister.	While this is by itself seemingly useful, as will be discussed later, the complete lack of influence and power held by loyalists negates its purpose.
-A green armband.	Exists only to get your ass beat for forgetting to wear it.
-Will not be prosecuted for blue transgressions unless authorized by Overwatch, Combine Civil Authority or Rank Leader or above Civil Protection units.	Very, very up in the air. Many CP's intentionally target loyalists, so the answer will typically be 'yes.' Even if the cause is fairly stupid.
-Will hold immunity to terminal verdicts until reviewed by Rank Leaders, Overwatch, or Combine Civil Authority.	Same deal

---

Tier Six:

-Ability to “request” Civil Protection bodyguards. (Not guaranteed)	Loyalists are forbidden from entering any potentially dangerous areas by default. On top of the fact CP's are likely to say no.
-Authorization to wear formal Loyalist suit (Request via communion)	Checks out. Simple as.
-May be brought into the Nexus at times of crisis.	Probably applies. Never really useful - but I won't knock this particular one for that.
-Able to request meetings with a Core CCA member (VA & CA included which can be requested via communion)	Just a worse version of its previous self. You have absolutely zero pull with these people and cannot reasonably just stop by to say hello. There is nearly zero reason to do this outside of the most abnormal circumstances.
-Priority Medical Treatment. Can receive preemptive surgery for conditions and whatnot such as eyesight recovery, medication for non-threatening annoyances, etc.	CMU accommodates this kind of stuff, so fair enough.
-Can request an Enslaved Vortigaunt for cleaning and other issues deemed valuable enough for use.	Probably checks out. Though, not sure how this conflicts with loyalist vorts.
-Ability to opt-out of work-cycles.	Pretty much, yes.
-Mandatory preferential treatment at any UU establishment.	Going to put this as red, simply because it steps into the territory of inherent respect, which loyalists do not, and cannot command.
-A white armband.	Exists only to get your ass beat for forgetting to wear it.
-May not be prosecuted for blue and orange level transgressions unless authorized by Overwatch, Combine Civil Administration, or Rank Leader or higher Civil Protection units. -Can be prosecuted for red transgressions or higher, but they will not be issued a terminal verdict until authorized by Captains of Civil Protection, Overwatch or Combine Civil Administration.	Same as the other one.

---

(The above is based partially off of personal experience and what I have heard.)

Suggestions and practical solutions:

Putting Civil Protection in its place

This is a fairly common and obvious one, but an important one all the same. A good chunk of oppression and suffering will invariably come from the hands of Civil Protection, who either by necessity or malice will uphold combine law. As of now, even the most basic unit is treated as a Tier 7 citizen. Someone who can bully all other tiers with impunity and shut down any and all efforts they engage in if they so choose.
Food chain should probably be something like this:

RCT < I5 < T4 < I4 < I3 < T5 < I2 < I1 < T6 < RL etc...
(Notes: This does not mean loyalists of higher standing can just outright ignore CP's or break laws before them, but it is to say, they have a degree of influence laid before them. Able to punish them for poor treatment, inspire favorable treatment for allies, speak openly before them etc. T3's were left off the list as so much of the population is of this level it would destabilize things)​

---

Gaining Influence:

This is a broad stroke, no doubt. But, I believe there is room for high tiers to be included in certain decision making regarding the city. No, I do not mean some pointless delegation as to whether or not loyalists should wear armbands on the right or left arm. I mean tangible, important things. Rather than have dime store event characters be the ones initiating special projects and the like alone, make a use for that massive waste of space in the CCA building.
Have meetings that include T5 + loyalists to confer and deliberate actions in the face of events/struggles etc.

Allow loyalists to get away with genuinely fucking up Underclass people (but not physically disabling), or muscling those not within the party itself. At least in theory. Allow them to order CP's to re-educate those who piss them off. Things like that.​

---

Let them Breathe

The legislation that confined all loyalists permanently to Victory and Triumph, without any legal loopholes or ways about it, was dumb since day one. Why it persists is honestly beyond me. It deprives the entire server of RP. Stop treating the Slums like its the damned outlands. Its literally apart of the city.

Allow loyalists to enter freely at certain levels, with high tier loyalists able to do so with Civil Protection (Or OTA if need be, such as during low Sociostability) ((Yeah, I just said that. HLA confirmed OTA actively patrol, so its not actually an insane suggestion)) escorts.​

---

Introduce a little anarchy:

To be fair, this one is a spitball, but adding a loyalist smuggler who deals in chips may be beneficial. Allowing them to engage in illicit trade without instantly getting ripped to shreds by the DOB or some other faction. Place it in that little grassland area that is never used, and have him sell useful goods for citizens, not so much standard weapon crap. It will give loyalists the possibility to engage in illicit activity without being inherent rebels.​

---

I aint got time to grind:

This one is the most...open ended. Everyone agrees the loyalist grind is quite awful (by far worse than anything the rebels have ever had to endure.) I honestly do not have an exact solution to this problem. However, step one is to not make it worse by expanding it into other tiers. If anything, what it needs is an extended roster of deeds that allow for smaller rewards, but greater opportunity.

Perhaps setting up some sort of general reward system for citizens who act with valor (or idiocy) in the face of danger to defend the Combines rule.
Have low level loyalists handle the advent of setting up and planning events - as a sort of labor they have to endure to really prove themselves to the party.
Maybe encourage shit like pro-combine rallies and the like. Mildly reward those who partake in them?

This one is a toughie, no doubt. But, maybe some other people can come up with more varied ways of expanding the system.



Okay, before management bans me for speaking out too much, this is going to be the last of such posts for some time. I hit the rebels, and since some even talked about the damaged concept of loyalism in that thread, I figured I may as well hit both corners of the board before calling it quits (for now). This, like the other thread, is mostly here to open an orderly conversational ground, and is not innately a suggestion. Hence why I put it in discussion rather than development. I don't claim to know everything, and the system for all its faults, is expansive. As such, I could have missed stuff or been mistaken on things within the post itself.

Be nice. Don't be gay and start insulting people. You know the drill. Tagging the CCA boys themselves as this obviously pertains to them pretty heavily. @Furious @Noodle
That is all gamers.
​

Jesus yes to everything here.

Do Civil Protection next.

 

[Landon]

entirely based post

 

[ConcernedCitizen]

RCT < I5 < T4 ​

 

[Deagantio]

-Can request an Enslaved Vortigaunt for cleaning and other issues deemed valuable enough for use.

Probably checks out. Though, not sure how this conflicts with loyalist vorts.

It still boggles my increasingly fragile mind that we have loyalist vortigaunts.

 

[Kappatalist]

fuck armbands

loyalists get tattoos now

you can't hide your loyalism, it'll stay with you forever

 

[Noodle]

(APOLOGIES FOR NOT DOING NICE FORMATTING AND SUCH ON PHONE)

INTRODUCTION
First of all, this post is literally a godsend in its formatting. It also is the perfect example of constructive criticism.

I will try and keep this as clean and organised as well. The benefits that loyalists receive are definitely the hard part of managing correctly. We have known about this and tried to expand it further, e.g. with the rights that some collaborator tiers have in accordance with certain violations. I would say that we have improved a lot, but obviously, a lot is never perfect nor can we ever honestly say that we have reached perfection. In any case I will jump into it by going over the main points made of each tier first.

The armband comment is based. I am not sure what exact arguments are to be made against them as I would prefer a more elaborate discussion surrounding them.

Tier three:

• The refreshment stuff is hard to keep up with. I think we have honestly lacked a bit in it, and we rarely do it outside of events (whether small or large). I hope that perhaps if we increase the ability to organise smaller events then we can provide this benefit more often.
• The partnership thing, well, honestly I have never received nor seen any wish for partnerships. As far as I know, I would be thrilled to allow two characters to be united in unity. But sadly, I think this might not be as publicly visible in the sense that people actually do not know that it is possible nor care enough to go forward with it.
• Reporting of CPs: This will be brought forward to CP leads.

Tier Four:

• Perhaps we could include a non-moveable safe in each loyalist housing apartment along with a fridge? This could provide more incentives. We should as well try and encourage usage of apartments and to do that you need basic incentives such as safes, fridges, coffee machines etc. But you also need a furnished apartment. It could be possible that Tier-four’s are allowed to have their apartments furnished for free one time.
• That personal experience in regards to priority selection is sad to hear. This is not how it is supposed to be especially towards Tier-six (despite it being funny). This issue will be redirected to CWU and CPs as a reminder.
• Though we have not set a specific percentage, you are inclined to receive a discount. Perhaps we ought to enforce this more. However, most sales only have 3 to 20 credits as profit during these sales. We could make it mandatory for Tier-four’s to receive e.g. 25% discount, Tier-five’s 50%, and Tier-Six’s breakeven sales price (100%).
• The CMU issue is hard as it already stands due to the CMU’s personal issues of retainment of doctors and general staff. I do not believe that this is a priority issue as of now.
• Possession of safes and coffee machines => I would like to add an open question: Are there any other valuables that might provide more value as well? Let me know!
• So the ability to attend loyalist functions; well you are right. They are incredibly hard to organize and host. Either they require anything from 2 weeks of organising or they happen spontaneously (somehow). They are hard but we always keep this in mind. We need to focus more on allowing collaborators to join in for a spontaneous lunch hosted by the administration. Or a proper banquet. The options are many and these loyalist events are usually handed to the event committee within the Legislative Assembly. So if people want more events then the best thing to do is participate in the organising of them.
• Exemption from random block inspections => This will be forwarded to CPs.
• Interesting comment on the priority ration cycle. I will say that I am happy to hear that it stays put during events.

Tier Five:

• The preferential work-cycle treatment as mentioned will be directed to CP leads and CWU as a reminder.
• Interesting argument for the request for a meeting function. It is true but also it depends on what the meeting is for. I think the creative aspect behind the purpose of a meeting might be the core issue. Snitching, reporting, or nominating a character are all examples of meetings that we have had in the past in which they all carry a different influence and proposed action from them. It depends a lot on who requests the meeting, how they behave, and what they are discussing with us. We do not look at loyalists as a non-powerful entity. It is not so much how much tangible authority they hold that is the issue, in my opinion, it is more so how we know that we ought to believe them and treat them more fairly than others. It is more so a psychological aspect than actual functionality. A bit hard to explain and I am well aware that I tend to over-bloat my writing. In the end, meetings are situational (boring response I know but the core aspect of the ability to request one still stands).
• If a loyalist believes they are being targeted then they should, by all means, request a meeting with the administration. We have dealt with these issues before and they have had their consequences. It is sad to hear it though because there is absolutely no reason for CPs to target loyalists publicly as these are the upright and lawful citizens. The issue of CPs being dickheads to loyalists will be reminded to CP leads is a no-go and quite literally destroys the core aspect of loyalism in its true self. Obviously not stating that loyalists are above the law; they are not.
• The same type of response to the terminal verdict thing.

Tier Six:

• Good arguments but the counterargument would be: why would a tier-six elitist of society go to a dangerous area? I think it could be used as some sort of psychological warfare weapon to have CPs standing behind a tier-six guy who basically extorts some guy or something in a “lawful” way. Overall it is really hard to comment on this because the arguments of where the tier-six traverses still end nullified. I think if we are able to establish a neutral outlook between T6’s and CPs then we can see a lot more bribes, scheming, and grey-area schemes.
• I will just as an additional note make sure that Tier-six are allowed into the Nexus courtyard and lobby of the Nexus but not HPR.
• The inherent respect that lies with a Tier-six should exist especially at any UU, if not then it ought to be a violation in itself. I would prefer some examples of this in regards to any UU establishment.

As for the constructive suggestions you have mentioned, I will definitely discuss them further with CP leads as there seems to be a fundamental issue at the place with regards to the treatment of loyalists.

For the influence part; I believe I might personally disagree with you on this one. We have had examples of loyalists who have far up the chain (monopolies) been able to utilise their position to their advantage. I do not believe in allowing loyalists to become tangible value creators, instead, I believe that their inherent voice and inherent respect should be improved by quite a lot to allow them to grow their archs further. Loyalists are getting away by doing shenanigans towards Underclass people as far as I know, in any case, if CPs interfere then they ought to give the doubt of mind in favour of the highest-ranking loyalist. Re-education will not be allocated as easily I doubt but nonetheless, I believe both me and Furious will have to have a more lengthy discussion surrounding these topics with the CP leads.

The legislation parts, overall the massive restrictive legislation I made a while back was to fundamentally root out and evaluate underlying activity which was a success. It was removed. Now parts of the restrictions that have been made have solely been recommended and wished for by CP leads which we have tried out for some time now. In further cases, we might remove it to allow free travel without restrictions again to see how things go. It is worth a lot for us to experiment with these things.

I think it would be good to see if we could add more “evil” or as you put it, “anarchy” to loyalism. It would allow us to elevate and remove loyalists faster. But it would also add more flavour to the elements of loyalism in cases of status and power.

The grind part: This is incredibly hard to upkeep and keep track of. Once you reach 200 SCP and try and get into tier-four it becomes hellish. I know. However, once you become part of tier-four then the expectations of you conducting collaborative work become higher. It is a lot of internal politics involved and you have to not only work hard but smart. You are not elevated beyond tier-four solely for your good work, you are elevated because of your essentialism to society. You must be able to sway and scheme.
I will have this grind issue more so as a reminder and something to evaluate further down the line.

CONCLUSION
To conclude, I think the main issue to focus on is strengthening the inherent respect that loyalists deserve and discussing it further with the CPs leads. As well as re-evaluating the restrictions upon travel.

Oh, and the armbands will now be a game mechanic! Please wear your armbands.

 

[The_Grass_Man]

-Ability to “request” Civil Protection bodyguards. (Not guaranteed)

MAA bodyguards :troll:

 

[vilhjalmrf]

- Ability to report Civil Protection Units

Good fucking luck, sport. Even T6 loyalists are at the mercy of Civil Protection. Getting the information is hard enough, if you even get that far.

It's pretty to easy to find out who the unit is if they put a charge or note on your profile with the PDA. Though you are correct, obtaining the information would be difficult. It all really depends on what the charge is and what tier the person is. If you're tier three or even tier four, you aren't really important enough for a Rank Leader or Captain to handle a report regarding a charge placed on you by a unit. Unless it's something serious like the unit abusing their authority or actively committing treason. As for as I know with the other Rank Leaders, they don't get many reports to handle and neither do I. Only report I've gotten was about a charge on a tier six loyalist and I actually handled it by lecturing the unit and removing said charge.

But if the unit didn't place a charge or wasn't near a camera during the time of incident then it's pretty much not gonna be looked into as it's very difficult (literally near impossible) to identify units who have done something that can't be logged.

-Will be exempt from random block inspections.

Been forced into multiple block inspections as a Tier 6 along with others.

As of recently, I feel like we took a step back from this. Personally, considering the fact we aren't a loyalist city anymore and with a lot of rebel activity going on, loyalist have been put into block inspections. Sometimes they are forced to attend, sometimes they aren't.

-Will not be prosecuted for blue transgressions unless authorized by Overwatch, Combine Civil Authority or Rank Leader or above Civil Protection units.

Very, very up in the air. Many CP's intentionally target loyalists, so the answer will typically be 'yes.' Even if the cause is fairly stupid.

I try to enforce the Protection Act, but again as far as I know no one of recent has came forward to report and dispute a charge. I don't find it difficult, especially for a loyalist, to go up to a Rank Leader and try to have the matter sort out. Or at least for me as I am a bit more open to the loyalists than to citizens.

I believe that overall, for CP and loyalist interactions, none of the CPs have read the Protection Act or have read it but forgotten about it. And I have noticed that there has been a few stepping on each others toes. Like a tier six Director trying to order a CP around, or a CP threatening a tier six loyalist or a t6's friend, etc. I believe it can be fixed easily with RLs enforcing the protocols and laws upon the units. Though this can't be guaranteed to work fully ICly as I am sure units would just go behind our backs and be corrupt. An IC issue.

-May not be prosecuted for blue and orange level transgressions unless authorized by Overwatch, Combine Civil Administration, or Rank Leader or higher Civil Protection units. -Can be prosecuted for red transgressions or higher, but they will not be issued a terminal verdict until authorized by Captains of Civil Protection, Overwatch or Combine Civil Administration.

Same as the other one.

Same again with above.

Putting Civil Protection in its place

This is a fairly common and obvious one, but an important one all the same. A good chunk of oppression and suffering will invariably come from the hands of Civil Protection, who either by necessity or malice will uphold combine law. As of now, even the most basic unit is treated as a Tier 7 citizen. Someone who can bully all other tiers with impunity and shut down any and all efforts they engage in if they so choose.
Food chain should probably be something like this:

RCT < I5 < T4 < I4 < I3 < T5 < I2 < I1 < T6 < RL etc...
(Notes: This does not mean loyalists of higher standing can just outright ignore CP's or break laws before them, but it is to say, they have a degree of influence laid before them. Able to punish them for poor treatment, inspire favorable treatment for allies, speak openly before them etc. T3's were left off the list as so much of the population is of this level it would destabilize things)

As mentioned above, I think it can be easily fixed if Rank Leaders and Captains/Overseers begin enforcing the Protection Act more often and if CCA and CP Command do more cooperation with each other. So far only one unit has been reported and punished. And that report was a long time ago. So either no loyalist has actually put the effort into a report or they feel like it's futile, believing their report would fall upon deaf ears.

 

[MrMindBlow]

TIME DR. FREEMAN?
IS IT REALLY THAT TIME AGAIN?


In true modern sequel fashion, I am just going to get right into and not bother with any setup or foundation laying for this newest ramble.

THE CORE ISSUES WITH LOYALISM

The biggest single issue that Willards concept of loyalism smacks headlong into a wall with, is the benefits that come with it. The tangible and notable rewards that are what possibly drive you to potentially turning your back on everything and everyone for a bigger piece of whatever is left of the pie. As of current, loyalists, even of the highest tiers, have less rights than even some Enslaved Vortigaunts do. The best part, that is not hyperbole. That is a literal statement that is in no way satirical...just to lay out how bad the system has honestly become.

Before branching off into suggestions or conceptual reworks, I want to touch up on what is actually already emplaced. So, in the spirit of things, lets look at the hypothetical benefits that are listed for loyalists in the official guide itself. I'm going to be doing this with as much brevity as possible, while also ignoring all Tiers below 3. This is because in a system that doesn't matter, Tier 1-2 loyalists matter even less.
​

Guide:
RED - Complete vapor in practice/Simply useless in practicality
YELLOW - Situational and rarely initiated/Poorly enforced/Not very useful
GREEN - Upheld and commonly implemented/Generally useful

---

Tier Three:

-Some free refreshments and food courtesy of the CCA (Request via communion)	Personally, I have only done it once and had it denied. Gonna just put this in Green as I cannot imagine its common for this to happen outside of the current event.
-Extra Credits from rations.	Literally an encoded system.
-Allowed to enter a civil partnership with those of similar tier level (Request via communion)	As far as I know, we don't have a single one of these.
-A yellow armband.	Exists only to get your ass-whooped if you forget to wear it.
- Ability to report Civil Protection Units	Good fucking luck, sport. Even T6 loyalists are at the mercy of Civil Protection. Getting the information is hard enough, if you even get that far.

---

Tier Four:

-Authorization to wear Informal Collaborator suit jacket. (Request via communion)	Not much to say. Upheld and makes you stand out.
-Ability to move into Loyalist Housing.	Loyalist housing is nearly, if not completely, identical to its standard counterpart. Only tangible benefit is being closer to the nexus, if you really want to count that.
-Priority selection for volunteer opportunities, in context with other tiered loyalists.	Can only go off of personal experience for this one. Been kicked out of events before as a T6 for being a femchar. While funny - does not seem enforced.
-Businesses are expected to give members of the Collaborator’s Party a reasonable discount.	I'm going to be generous/an asshole and give this a yellow, but some of the discount rates I have seen are laughable. Not exactly sure how it works, but mostly seems to be just a few credits.
-Access to Collaborator-Only merchandise in businesses. (Luxury Products)	Checks out
-Mandatory priority medical treatment from medical establishments.	Very rare for CMU to be in a state of Triage. Mostly is so due to lack of doctors online. Will not put that one either faction though, and just chalk this up to flavor text.
-Preferential work cycle positions at the discretion of Civil Protection.	Gonna Green it, as I imagine this is upheld.
-Possession of safes and coffee machines.	Safes are expensive as shit. Coffee is cool though.
-Able to attend Loyalist functions.	Not going to be that guy and hop on peoples nuts for not making many loyalist events. They are much harder to make than NPC spawn rebel events. But...still...
-A blue armband.	Exists only to get your ass beat for forgetting to wear it.
-Will be exempt from random block inspections.	Been forced into multiple block inspections as a Tier 6 along with others.
-Will have priority during ration cycles	Pretty Situational. Only happens in response to events. However, when it does come into play, it is very useful. Otherwise rations are just a free-for-all anyway.

---

Tier Five:

-Priority service from businesses. (Skipping Lines, served food first, etc.)	Flavorful enough for me to just give it a pass. Yeah, pretty uncommon, but it adds something for what it is.
-Preferential work-cycle treatment.	Personal experience says no. But, going to yellow as I am sure its at least partially upheld.
-Ability to request a meeting with a Tier 6, Director, Rank Leader, and Minister.	While this is by itself seemingly useful, as will be discussed later, the complete lack of influence and power held by loyalists negates its purpose.
-A green armband.	Exists only to get your ass beat for forgetting to wear it.
-Will not be prosecuted for blue transgressions unless authorized by Overwatch, Combine Civil Authority or Rank Leader or above Civil Protection units.	Very, very up in the air. Many CP's intentionally target loyalists, so the answer will typically be 'yes.' Even if the cause is fairly stupid.
-Will hold immunity to terminal verdicts until reviewed by Rank Leaders, Overwatch, or Combine Civil Authority.	Same deal

---

Tier Six:

-Ability to “request” Civil Protection bodyguards. (Not guaranteed)	Loyalists are forbidden from entering any potentially dangerous areas by default. On top of the fact CP's are likely to say no.
-Authorization to wear formal Loyalist suit (Request via communion)	Checks out. Simple as.
-May be brought into the Nexus at times of crisis.	Probably applies. Never really useful - but I won't knock this particular one for that.
-Able to request meetings with a Core CCA member (VA & CA included which can be requested via communion)	Just a worse version of its previous self. You have absolutely zero pull with these people and cannot reasonably just stop by to say hello. There is nearly zero reason to do this outside of the most abnormal circumstances.
-Priority Medical Treatment. Can receive preemptive surgery for conditions and whatnot such as eyesight recovery, medication for non-threatening annoyances, etc.	CMU accommodates this kind of stuff, so fair enough.
-Can request an Enslaved Vortigaunt for cleaning and other issues deemed valuable enough for use.	Probably checks out. Though, not sure how this conflicts with loyalist vorts.
-Ability to opt-out of work-cycles.	Pretty much, yes.
-Mandatory preferential treatment at any UU establishment.	Going to put this as red, simply because it steps into the territory of inherent respect, which loyalists do not, and cannot command.
-A white armband.	Exists only to get your ass beat for forgetting to wear it.
-May not be prosecuted for blue and orange level transgressions unless authorized by Overwatch, Combine Civil Administration, or Rank Leader or higher Civil Protection units. -Can be prosecuted for red transgressions or higher, but they will not be issued a terminal verdict until authorized by Captains of Civil Protection, Overwatch or Combine Civil Administration.	Same as the other one.

---

(The above is based partially off of personal experience and what I have heard.)

Suggestions and practical solutions:

Putting Civil Protection in its place

This is a fairly common and obvious one, but an important one all the same. A good chunk of oppression and suffering will invariably come from the hands of Civil Protection, who either by necessity or malice will uphold combine law. As of now, even the most basic unit is treated as a Tier 7 citizen. Someone who can bully all other tiers with impunity and shut down any and all efforts they engage in if they so choose.
Food chain should probably be something like this:

RCT < I5 < T4 < I4 < I3 < T5 < I2 < I1 < T6 < RL etc...
(Notes: This does not mean loyalists of higher standing can just outright ignore CP's or break laws before them, but it is to say, they have a degree of influence laid before them. Able to punish them for poor treatment, inspire favorable treatment for allies, speak openly before them etc. T3's were left off the list as so much of the population is of this level it would destabilize things)​

---

Gaining Influence:

This is a broad stroke, no doubt. But, I believe there is room for high tiers to be included in certain decision making regarding the city. No, I do not mean some pointless delegation as to whether or not loyalists should wear armbands on the right or left arm. I mean tangible, important things. Rather than have dime store event characters be the ones initiating special projects and the like alone, make a use for that massive waste of space in the CCA building.
Have meetings that include T5 + loyalists to confer and deliberate actions in the face of events/struggles etc.

Allow loyalists to get away with genuinely fucking up Underclass people (but not physically disabling), or muscling those not within the party itself. At least in theory. Allow them to order CP's to re-educate those who piss them off. Things like that.​

---

Let them Breathe

The legislation that confined all loyalists permanently to Victory and Triumph, without any legal loopholes or ways about it, was dumb since day one. Why it persists is honestly beyond me. It deprives the entire server of RP. Stop treating the Slums like its the damned outlands. Its literally apart of the city.

Allow loyalists to enter freely at certain levels, with high tier loyalists able to do so with Civil Protection (Or OTA if need be, such as during low Sociostability) ((Yeah, I just said that. HLA confirmed OTA actively patrol, so its not actually an insane suggestion)) escorts.​

---

Introduce a little anarchy:

To be fair, this one is a spitball, but adding a loyalist smuggler who deals in chips may be beneficial. Allowing them to engage in illicit trade without instantly getting ripped to shreds by the DOB or some other faction. Place it in that little grassland area that is never used, and have him sell useful goods for citizens, not so much standard weapon crap. It will give loyalists the possibility to engage in illicit activity without being inherent rebels.​

---

I aint got time to grind:

This one is the most...open ended. Everyone agrees the loyalist grind is quite awful (by far worse than anything the rebels have ever had to endure.) I honestly do not have an exact solution to this problem. However, step one is to not make it worse by expanding it into other tiers. If anything, what it needs is an extended roster of deeds that allow for smaller rewards, but greater opportunity.

Perhaps setting up some sort of general reward system for citizens who act with valor (or idiocy) in the face of danger to defend the Combines rule.
Have low level loyalists handle the advent of setting up and planning events - as a sort of labor they have to endure to really prove themselves to the party.
Maybe encourage shit like pro-combine rallies and the like. Mildly reward those who partake in them?

This one is a toughie, no doubt. But, maybe some other people can come up with more varied ways of expanding the system.



Okay, before management bans me for speaking out too much, this is going to be the last of such posts for some time. I hit the rebels, and since some even talked about the damaged concept of loyalism in that thread, I figured I may as well hit both corners of the board before calling it quits (for now). This, like the other thread, is mostly here to open an orderly conversational ground, and is not innately a suggestion. Hence why I put it in discussion rather than development. I don't claim to know everything, and the system for all its faults, is expansive. As such, I could have missed stuff or been mistaken on things within the post itself.

Be nice. Don't be gay and start insulting people. You know the drill. Tagging the CCA boys themselves as this obviously pertains to them pretty heavily. @Furious @Noodle
That is all gamers.
​

Can you do Birds and Headcrabs next? They clearly need representation.

 

[HOKI]

RCT < I5 < T4​

All cops are automatically tier four, so I see no reason why a regular tier four would be above an armed tier four who actively fights for the regime.

 

[RedHotGinger]

All cops are automatically tier four, so I see no reason why a regular tier four would be above an armed tier four who actively fights for the regime.

Well this is an example of cops getting treated as being worth more than they actually are. CP's are not special ops, or even considered military in most respects. They are and always will be, tools of mild use. They are, as far as the Combine is concerned, thugs that can be handed a gun and baton which they will semi-effectively use to keep their fellow man down.

A more interesting dynamic is created when CP's aren't handed everything from the get-go like they currently are.

Edit: Do keep in mind as well, its not as if loyalists get total power when being above a certain rank. But, they get certain privilege's others may lack, as listed above. Not like you can start issuing outright orders or something.

It's pretty to easy to find out who the unit is if they put a charge or note on your profile with the PDA.

I know of at least one person who was PK'ed for looking into a units information to report them. It is not nearly as easy as you may think and comes with an inherent risk as CP's are under no obligation to act with decency around loyalists.

As of recently, I feel like we took a step back from this. Personally, considering the fact we aren't a loyalist city anymore and with a lot of rebel activity going on, loyalist have been put into block inspections. Sometimes they are forced to attend, sometimes they aren't.

Honestly, the whole 'not a loyalist city' thing is entirely irrelevant as the system would still apply, and that entire """Arc""" was done by a single admin who went under the table to initiate that whole thing.

As mentioned above, I think it can be easily fixed if Rank Leaders and Captains/Overseers begin enforcing the Protection Act more often and if CCA and CP Command do more cooperation with each other.

The whole putting CP's in their place thing is not entirely just about loyalists. CP's in general are treated like Special Ops gun runners when they are just not nearly that important or valuable. Put the boot on them like everyone else has it. Squeeze them a little to encourage some atypical interactions and arrangements with them.

 

[0xNiklas]

The whole putting CP's in their place thing is not entirely just about loyalists. CP's in general are treated like Special Ops gun runners when they are just not nearly that important or valuable. Put the boot on them like everyone else has it. Squeeze them a little to encourage some atypical interactions and arrangements with them.

Yeah that be true. CPs being treated as special-ops and what I think is funny. MAA being treated as the worst faction that ever existed with only Citizen with guns!!! What are the Civil Protection? They don't have legitimacy neither, they are themselves shitizen in a suit with a gun and stunbaton to crush others to get just a decent meal, but yet they are being treated as gods what is kinda shit. When you as I2 Unit leave the force with 300 STCs, after my knowledge you get put into the Collaborator Party as Tier-4, so CPs until I2 aren't equally worth to a Tier-4 in aspect of collaboration. (Well to say, If a CP is being taken off their suit, there is nothing to defend them maybe their limited training of how to hand to hand combat, but your basic won't help you against those, who are using them since their rebellious act started)

 

[Landon]

Yeah that be true. CPs being treated as special-ops and what I think is funny. MAA being treated as the worst faction that ever existed with only Citizen with guns!!! What are the Civil Protection? They don't have legitimacy neither, they are themselves shitizen in a suit with a gun and stunbaton to crush others to get just a decent meal, but yet they are being treated as gods what is kinda shit. When you as I2 Unit leave the force with 300 STCs, after my knowledge you get put into the Collaborator Party as Tier-4, so CPs until I2 aren't equally worth to a Tier-4 in aspect of collaboration. (Well to say, If a CP is being taken off their suit, there is nothing to defend them maybe their limited training of how to hand to hand combat, but your basic won't help you against those, who are using them since their rebellious act started)

i take it you like the MAA

 

[0xNiklas]

Yeah. I am kinda one of its member and created it? But I thought it was funny to say since it is true.

 

[Sagsworth]

guys please dont bully the mallcops it makes them upset

 

[The Milkman]

It still boggles my increasingly fragile mind that we have loyalist vortigaunts.

Most loyalist vorts aren’t really loyalists, they’re just playing the system for some extra benefits…








Mostly…..

 

[Ansty]

I don't play loyalists although the things you get from tier 1 and tier 2 seem like such minor editions. How about you just get rid of them ? And have only 4 tiers instead.