My (Hot?) Take on Willards Rebel Problems

[Rebel RP Philosopher]

CP whitelisted players

I might have worded it wrong - but i was pointing out that Whitelisted CP players cannot go rogue. You have to create a citizen character, somehow get your hands on CP equipment and then try to infiltrate the faction without a faction whitelist on your current character. Once they die - they die. This would also encourage CP armories to have credit costs for equipment, as citizens do not get salaries comparable to that of the CPs.

 

[HOKI]

This very cool and all, it will be epic to browse a thread like this 2-3 months from now where people will be saying that what we have right now was waaay better etc etc.
The vicious cycle of rebel rp "fixes"

 

[ShadoWiz4rd]

There's a reason this is never done: everything is digital, and tracked.

You cannot use 'combine currency' for rebel stuff either, so bribes and extortion are relatively pointless.

Just an idea no reason you cant extort goods Ig?

 

[ShadoWiz4rd]

Rogues no longer whitelisted?

As for rogues, it probably would be more engaging if it was removed from being an authorization system - rather something along the lines of being a citizen disguised as a CP - with no visual, text based or familiar hints to CP players that you are rogue - other than your name not being on a spreadsheet. This would be engaging as the player in question will feel as if they don't really belong in the CP faction, rather than being someone who applied through forums and then filed in an application for rogue license.

Can't you just fill out a rogue auth for your cop and bam it's done and ready to go?

 

[Rebel RP Philosopher]

Can't you just fill out a rogue auth for your cop and bam it's done and ready to go?

Being a citizen and hanging out with a faction you don't belong to is authentic. Especially when you have managed to get your hands on equipment that successfully makes you able to blend among Cps as one of their ranks. This grants a true incentive to exploit the ability of being a rogue which is acknowledgeable due to its initial required investment.

When you are a standard CP with an application, spoiling your reasoning instead of keeping them to yourself, will lead to a watered down rogue behavior where you are more or less hanging out and being subtle. In contrast, as doing noticeable sabotage such as smuggling goods (that currently is free from the CP vendor) may risk your whitelist to the faction overall — even though you are fulfilling your role as a rogue.

Having to spend in-game time to become an in-game rogue with in-game rewards from the exploit you have invested your character into will make the experience all more immersive and an acknowledged achievement by your companions. All while being far more structured by not depending on out-of-character bureaucracy to be able to contribute to City 24:s narrative, quoted under balance which can also be defined through a developed structure as previously mentioned.

 

[Coroneljones]

There's a reason this is never done: everything is digital, and tracked.

You cannot use 'combine currency' for rebel stuff either, so bribes and extortion are relatively pointless.

While transactions are tracked, theres two ways that, in my opinion, make it usable for "corrupt" usage:

-Not giving a reason to check your transaction logs, or if you do get spotted, drown it out in a sea of menial values so that it blends in. Only if they were actually persistent on checking every single transaction would it be spotted as "something" maybe out of the norm.

-Having anything out of the ordinary (Extortion, bribes or rebel deals) covered up as being reasonable.
A lot of money going your way? Big purchase.
Money going to a CP? "Generous donation".
Getting extortion money from someone? Unique service from a store getting paid.
Random guy sending you a credit transfer? Say that he owed you credits for a loan a while back, or its from a street exchange of food. Something not as bad as what its actually for.

Even with transaction logs tracking where money goes, there are ways to disguise it and blend in with the system, atleast in theory.
Late Edit: Technically one way to disguise it, is by not buying all of that in one go and instead stretching it over periods of time, like a bit every day instead of all at the same time, along with some random shit to disguise the order, which would help with extending the rebel grind by pulling somewhat smarter methods of blending in.
But its not really an enforceable thing as much as its someone being smart


The one thing that is harder to hide, is repetitive barter menu purchases for the same thing, but thats another topic.

 

[CristoNath]

Hmm. Okay I see some more ideas popping in, good constructive talk so far. I got a document in the works (Well it is a google slide doc but it works for separating issues more clearly and easy to understand fashion) which I will link here (You all have comment access)

https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1bAFm33k03RDHnCyPUM9RbrAu4JstF46MMJP_fShLxn0/edit?usp=sharing

You can comment your ideas there and even offer differing suggestions to what has been written thus far. It will be helpful for me in the long-run as I work with the staff and other CMs to actually get these issues pushed up and addressed without much delay as I have been quite persistent to everyone as of late as my own experience as trying out Rebel gameplay has been quite revealing to see that yes... you can just do the cheap solo route.. yes the experience feels dead with even the ability to gain high-tier loot without doing 1 event or without even taking part in a conversation with other players. It has opened my eyes to a lot of things over time in how and why Rebels become the way they are now, even getting snitched on so easily because snitches are fed rewards like coming across the free candy store, except the candy store is every single CP and with plenty of "Sweets" to claim in Slums.

You know what I feel would solve most of the issues listed in here and would be piss simple to fix? Just make it exponentially harder to level up, if it's already not the case, then make it harder. I find that it's way too easy to be a master of your craft (especially the gun's skill. On the Thanatos infestation event, I went from a solid 15 gun level to 40 in about 2 days on my main char). Levelling up should be something you need to get over time, thus making it more rewarding to get, then just grinding for one day and be almost max level on something. You could also make the Uzi, TOZ and revolver require level 50 in crafting. Both of those changes would force people to focus on one aspect of the skill system, forcing them to co-operate and have RP interactions if they want something of one branch or the other, instead of focusing on their sigma speedrun grindset to get enough crafting level and scripts to build off a gun and go shotcop. Sure, they will still be anti-socials who will still grind like a Chinese rust bot to get to their objectives, but at least by doing so, you make the grind ALOT longer and kinda force their hands to RP to get to their goals. This would also probably make rebels have a lot more of self-preservation because, if it takes time to level up, and you get PK'ed, well it's off to a week or so to grind back to the previous status Quo.

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Alternatively, if you don't want to increase the XP that you need to level up, you could just put an artificial limit on how much XP you can get per day, thus stopping the RuneScape farm bots as well.

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- Thank you for listening my TED talk, one retarded French Canadian

 

[Merlinsclaw]

@Robert

Bad idea IMO. You are just increasing the grind even further and that wards people off. Even 'increased benefits' isn't really going to lure people into loyalism. Loyalism is boring as fuck except when there's interesting stuff to do. (hmmmmm)

The easiest way to fix Loyalism would be allow for a larger CCA (doesn't have to be to big) to be able to send people up and down the ranks at a moments notice for collaborating with the Board.

 

[ShadoWiz4rd]

@Robert

Bad idea IMO. You are just increasing the grind even further and that wards people off. Even 'increased benefits' isn't really going to lure people into loyalism. Loyalism is boring as fuck except when there's interesting stuff to do. (hmmmmm)

The easiest way to fix Loyalism would be allow for a larger CCA (doesn't have to be to big) to be able to send people up and down the ranks at a moments notice for collaborating with the Board.

A sitting council adjacent or under control of the Administration made of higher tier T4-T6 Loyalist's would be nice, Could help make things go smoother and faster as opposed to having to wait long periods of time for simple bureacractic requests aswell.

 

[Sagsworth]

Personally, I think loyalism is best when it's purpose is for power rather than vague gestures of loyalty.

A voluntary party that citizens can join (but not leave), which comes with extra rules and privileges given out by the party and negotiated with the CCA. Control of the party means control over the rules and responsibilities it sets up, and through it's leadership, you can have a massive impact on the population.

This way you end up with two tiers of citizens, normal citizens who follow basic laws and party members who have their own set of rules and principles. It's then in the interest of loyalist leaders to expand loyalism, as well as wrestle for control of the party (which should probably be handled by a mix of positions so no one person can just say "we're doing x now" without negotiation or input).

 

[Taliazure]

I was once a snitch on nebulous and I survived for 10 minutes in my charather. I saw some rebels making a deal in the slums and went to speak to a officer, I told them all about it while there was a guy sitting next to us in a Cafe. Guess that guy was a rebel, 6 minutes later I enter a bar in the slums and before I turn around this same guy walks in with a katana and pkd me.
And when I spoke to admins (at the time I didn't know what a pk was) they said that the second you snitch and someone knows you are a snitch with valid proof, they automatically have pk auths on you. I think this should be this way more and this even happened in Willard where my first charather was murdered by a group of rebels when they waited for me to enter my apartment and kidnapped me. For me I think the moment you have reasonable knowledge of a snitch you can pk them, as for how? I think the best way is wait for them to pass around in the wrong street, not go after them into the city.

 

[Taliazure]

Going to present a small and sweet document soon with all the ideas gathered so far for everyone to comment on. From what I am getting so far, it seems we want to head into a more original style of the CW days where item gathering is not as easy as just using some skill system, but rather via rewards the use of other characters, where being a part of the resistance was something granted to you, not dubbed onto one's self simply because they hold a gun. The days when connections with people were important to enter the scene of the Resistance rather than being solo'd via some trash and an NPC seller.

That is what I gather so far. Another thing I have gathered from Discord and here is PK's feel imbalanced and for some, too soft. They prefer something in the middle where all sides are equal but at the same time, events can be partaken in with a fair amount of risk which is equal to its reward.

Finally, I see people are asking me to make the grind slightly longer again and a bit harder to add on to the above points given in the Bottlestreet era, players RP'd more due to the fact Items weren't as easy as solo walk the entire sewers, sell off your breakdown earnings and have enough to become rebel in just a few days but to instead take far longer and require the use of people to earn your first gun, where it feels more of an honour and reward rather than something given to you simply because you buried your head in the 40 or so trash bags on the map.

Have I missed anything, please do let me know. (And yes, I am aware some find the DOB to be a problem when it comes to stores since the life of Stores since their appearance has been... less than appealing and for some, finished stores off for good. That is a separate issue being worked on by another individual other than myself who is working towards Citizens and fixing the Stores thus trying to revive the appearance of stores like Sunrise and Dutchman which were good RP hubs and nice resistance zones for trade at the same time.)

Yes I have to say... I made 400 chips in like 3 hours just from trash alone it is so dumb how yoh can get chips so quickly.
I could just do 6 hours have 800 chips, next day do 3 more hours 1300 chips, wait for a bmd player, buy the gun from them. Stash it do another grind buy the ammo and I got a weapon with ammo on the second day of my charather that easely.

 

[Taliazure]

This rule already exists, the way it works (if it hasn't changed) is that you have to wait x amount of time before getting inside a base after fighting cops, and cops have to wait like 15 mins between sweeps so generally if you survive enough rounds of cops sweeping you can hide. but the amount of time required to get into a base is the same as the amount of time to flag off, so it's got no tangible benefit in that regard. just waiting long enough to dc is the same effectively. and when we used bases before, they weren't used for roleplaying inside all day seperate from the population. not sure what was done which made that not happen, just a culture thing we got right.

There's no rule about getting into a Base after shot copping right? Cause I have Dene rebels shoot at us then run into their apsrtment ditch their gear in less than 4 minutes and come out as a naked like nothing ever happened and we just walk right past them knowing fully oocly that was the guy shooting at us but we can't do shit about it cause he's naked now (and this is fucking dumb too)

 

[Taliazure]

Hmm. Okay I see some more ideas popping in, good constructive talk so far. I got a document in the works (Well it is a google slide doc but it works for separating issues more clearly and easy to understand fashion) which I will link here (You all have comment access)

https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1bAFm33k03RDHnCyPUM9RbrAu4JstF46MMJP_fShLxn0/edit?usp=sharing

You can comment your ideas there and even offer differing suggestions to what has been written thus far. It will be helpful for me in the long-run as I work with the staff and other CMs to actually get these issues pushed up and addressed without much delay as I have been quite persistent to everyone as of late as my own experience as trying out Rebel gameplay has been quite revealing to see that yes... you can just do the cheap solo route.. yes the experience feels dead with even the ability to gain high-tier loot without doing 1 event or without even taking part in a conversation with other players. It has opened my eyes to a lot of things over time in how and why Rebels become the way they are now, even getting snitched on so easily because snitches are fed rewards like coming across the free candy store, except the candy store is every single CP and with plenty of "Sweets" to claim in Slums.

I also found that staff try too hard to push people to do stuff or aid them too much. I think staff should set goals for rebels and let them pick up the courage and go do it instead of making this John Jones mechanic guy who knows how to hack into the terminal and has to be defended by the rebels instead of the rebels themselves learning how to do it and they themselves getting there.
An example would be the reactor we have over at main Street. If a rebel from the outlands wanted it as a mission to the player rebels they would have to figure a way to get the reactor by themselves not just have to escort this event char who knows how to do it all and for some reason knows how to hack into the Combine terminal. I think players have to drive the story themselves and when it comes to what can happen it needs to be less linear, there needs to be more and more endings than just having an admin pull an /it from their ass because the event was supposed to end a certain way. Why not let it end the other way let it continue, let the players continue the story themselves further and develop a round it other than just /it "the reactor falls it explodes the end".

 

[Taliazure]

And when people complain about Cps sweeping too much or trying to hard to catch rebels, this has been dying more and more to the fact that we have started to not win anything out of it.
Rank leaders have come to simply not be active at all or just outright not acknowledge unit's works.
Patrolling into the cz or going after a rebel cause I saw him trough the gate has been ignored more and more due to the fact that it gives no reward at all and we can die for it.
At this point Cps have become this status quo of speaking to citizens, walking aorund beating random people, searching anyone that come sout of the cz to stop them from entering the city with guns and shivs.

 

[Taliazure]

I might have worded it wrong - but i was pointing out that Whitelisted CP players cannot go rogue. You have to create a citizen character, somehow get your hands on CP equipment and then try to infiltrate the faction without a faction whitelist on your current character. Once they die - they die. This would also encourage CP armories to have credit costs for equipment, as citizens do not get salaries comparable to that of the CPs.

We don't get salaries as well all our money comes from giving citizens fines. We get no wages till we get to i4 and even getting to i4 is impossible with the current rank leaders who are never online or when they are they dotn give a single fuck about what you do or did. You never get rewarded and you are ever acknowledged.

 

[Merlinsclaw]

you know you can reply to multiple things with... one post, right?

 

[Taliazure]

you know you can reply to multiple things with... one post, right?

Ik but I'm in my phone and it fucks up already too much to even try to do thst... It's also 6 am I barely got brain cells awaken.

 

[Robert]

@Robert

Bad idea IMO. You are just increasing the grind even further and that wards people off. Even 'increased benefits' isn't really going to lure people into loyalism. Loyalism is boring as fuck except when there's interesting stuff to do. (hmmmmm)

The easiest way to fix Loyalism would be allow for a larger CCA (doesn't have to be to big) to be able to send people up and down the ranks at a moments notice for collaborating with the Board.

Hmm, fair point. Though the only reason that point was added is that one thing brought up is that relying on the loyalists to promote you is more tedious than earning points that any cp/worker can give. That is pretty much the only reason why some suggested switching to point-based rather than being too reliant on other inactive loyalty members.

There is benefits to give and some things to change, eg how CPs treat them worse than civs and rebels for reasons no one can understand. So should be treated far nicer instead depending on how far up the chain they are.

Then as you said, allow Loyalists to be on a board of their own (Something someone else suggested) while also having access to a slightly larger CCA.

 

[Merlinsclaw]

Hmm, fair point. Though the only reason that point was added is that one thing brought up is that relying on the loyalists to promote you is more tedious than earning points that any cp/worker can give. That is pretty much the only reason why some suggested switching to point-based rather than being too reliant on other inactive loyalty members.

There is benefits to give and some things to change, eg how CPs treat them worse than civs and rebels for reasons no one can understand. So should be treated far nicer instead depending on how far up the chain they are.

Then as you said, allow Loyalists to be on a board of their own (Something someone else suggested) while also having access to a slightly larger CCA.

I think an expanded CCA is the way to go rather than some loyalist board or other supplement. Loyalists often aren’t scrutinized enough OOCly and so giving them these responsibilities is probably a bad idea.

But yes, I do also agree that loyalists should generally be treated better.