Overhaul the Sewer PK rules entirely.

[verTix]

PK from npcs is a great thing unironically. Instead of them being annoying, they are genuinely dangerous

i'd settle for full NLR with no refunds tbh. NPCs should be dangerous (and there should be more of them) but not PK worthy.

 

[Rabid]

PK from npcs is a great thing unironically. Instead of them being annoying, they are genuinely dangerous

I say again, two people were PK'd because by the letter of the rules they were in the sewers post-server crash when a dead barnacle was respawned and grabbed them when they were trying to return to do their roleplay.

It goes a little beyond a joke at that point. I'd rather die to other players in TBC than die to a literal AI that can be spawned in by anyone.

CWU being dragged into both a Priority and a Mandatory Workshift in the Sewers by Civil Protection would like to have some recognition too you know...

Fair enough! Only furthers my point really.

 

[Equinox]

Obviously a balance needs to be struck.

The sewers were, as I remember them being discussed, made to be a temporary location. You go down there, you stay down there for a short time, and then you leave. The whole point is that you use it to briefly evade or hide. The reason it's temporary is because we don't want people camping in the sewers. It doesn't encourage roleplay, leads to circlejerks, and makes the streets look empty. This is why I feel the sewers should be a matter of "ramping danger". The moment you step down there, you should KNOW that you are at risk. I mean- does the alien miasma everywhere and the immediately toxic gas not already tell the player this already? The longer you stay down, the greater your chances of death.

However, at one point I advocated for PK's from sewer deaths. Now it makes me wonder the roleplay benefit of a PK. An NLR with stat penalties and item loss is already big enough a deterrent. Perhaps PK's could go, but I absolutely do not believe the sewers should be made any less dangerous. At a certain point, the player just has to accept that the odds are against them the longer they stay in the sewers.

 

[Rabid]

The sewers were, as I remember them being discussed, made to be a temporary location. You go down there, you stay down there for a short time, and then you leave. The whole point is that you use it to briefly evade or hide. The reason it's temporary is because we don't want people camping in the sewers. It doesn't encourage roleplay, leads to circlejerks, and makes the streets look empty. This is why I feel the sewers should be a matter of "ramping danger". The moment you step down there, you should KNOW that you are at risk. I mean- does the alien miasma everywhere and the immediately toxic gas not already tell the player this already? The longer you stay down, the greater your chances of death.

In hindsight I think it was a naïve move by management to expect fully armed and geared rebels to want to sit right next door to cops in an area that frankly isn't safe for them to do so - the slums just aren't built to support the Resistance that WN wants to build from a design standpoint.

WN's Resistance isn't doing anything different from what every Resistance on every server I have ever seen stretching right back to 2008 has done if they have had the option, though. Having guns and gear on the surface with the presence of scanners and the possibility of a patrol or sweep being a road over from you has never been seen as a sensible choice, IC or OOC. People will naturally want to put themselves at the furthest point away from the Combine on the map to maximise their chances of survival as a character.

The risks of staying underground and making it work (despite it not being designed for it) clearly outweigh the benefits of trying to RP on the surface to most rebels and trying to force the playerbase back topside is only going to make them stop playing, not be more willing to do it.

PK's are important as a consequence for severe actions, but having PK's for dying to literal AI or just BEING in the sewers is silly. People may be willing to tolerate it now but all it would take is one incident where a lot of people are PK'd for a domino effect to kick in.

 

[verTix]

In hindsight I think it was a naïve move by management to expect fully armed and geared rebels to want to sit right next door to cops in an area that frankly isn't safe for them to do so - the slums just aren't built to support the Resistance that WN wants to build from a design standpoint.

WN's Resistance isn't doing anything different from what every Resistance on every server I have ever seen stretching right back to 2008 has done if they have had the option, though. Having guns and gear on the surface with the presence of scanners and the possibility of a patrol or sweep being a road over from you has never been seen as a sensible choice, IC or OOC. People will naturally want to put themselves at the furthest point away from the Combine on the map to maximise their chances of survival as a character.

The risks of staying underground and making it work (despite it not being designed for it) clearly outweigh the benefits of trying to RP on the surface to most rebels and trying to force the playerbase back topside is only going to make them stop playing, not be more willing to do it.

PK's are important as a consequence for severe actions, but having PK's for dying to literal AI or just BEING in the sewers is silly. People may be willing to tolerate it now but all it would take is one incident where a lot of people are PK'd for a domino effect to kick in.

It’s not hard to put your scripts away. This applies to a majority of rebels who aren’t marked as BOL or AC. You don’t have to hide if you have nothing on you to hide. Sewer circlejerks are terrible for RP, so only the actual BOL anticitizens should be down there normally.

 

[Rabid]

It’s not hard to put your scripts away. This applies to a majority of rebels who aren’t marked as BOL or AC. You don’t have to hide if you have nothing on you to hide. Sewer circlejerks are terrible for RP, so only the actual BOL anticitizens should be down there normally.

Sure, but that's a perfect view in a perfect world and isn't how people view things.

I don't mean that snarkily, I mean that in the very frank sense that rebels - like anyone - will go where the RP is. "Sewer circlejerks" have formed because the slums are perceived as too dangerous to risk sitting in and people are pushing for an armed and geared Resistance. Nobody is going to randomly walk up to the surface (and risk being caught or worse) if their main source of roleplay is in the sewers with their rebel friends where they can have their cool earned equipment on.

That's like saying cops should go into the sewers to roleplay with rebels just because they're there.

You can not have a heavily armed and equipped resistance that operates on the surface. It isn't practical and is suicidal to anyone, IC or OOC.

 

[Sagsworth]

The risks of staying underground and making it work (despite it not being designed for it) clearly outweigh the benefits of trying to RP on the surface to most rebels and trying to force the playerbase back topside is only going to make them stop playing, not be more willing to do it.

Sure, but that's a perfect view in a perfect world and isn't how people view things.

I don't mean that snarkily, I mean that in the very frank sense that rebels - like anyone - will go where the RP is. "Sewer circlejerks" have formed because the slums are perceived as too dangerous to risk sitting in and people are pushing for an armed and geared Resistance. Nobody is going to randomly walk up to the surface (and risk being caught or worse) if their main source of roleplay is in the sewers with their rebel friends where they can have their cool earned equipment on.

No rebels exist permanently underground, we don't even roleplay underground. I think you just aren't aware how willard rebel RP works at the moment.

 

[Rabid]

No rebels exist permanently underground, we don't even roleplay underground. I think you just aren't aware how willard rebel RP works at the moment.

Maybe not, or the people I've been speaking to have misrepresented things to me. The vast majority of people who have or had rebels have said that the slums are almost impossible to stay in while doing anything major and the sewers are, well, the sewers.

This isn't true for every group though, clearly.

But the sewers are clearly enough of a part of the daily life of Rebels to where dying to NPC's or having sweeps come through for breaking cameras is a problem. If they weren't, you wouldn't be against both of those things - nobody would care if OTA were running through a part of the map that nobody used.

I assume that this is because that just because your group may not be in them at any given moment doesn't mean nobody is - and currently, your actions could potentially get them all killed (or vice-versa; you could die from someone else shooting a cop you never knew about). That's not exactly a good feeling, I know.

I've don't find that sort of thing fair, or fun. I used to think it was a valid way for a server to run but now I'm very much in the other camp.

Future-proofing is important, ultimately.

 

[Sagsworth]

Maybe not, or the people I've been speaking to have misrepresented things to me. The vast majority of people who have or had rebels have said that the slums are almost impossible to stay in while doing anything major and the sewers are, well, the sewers.

This isn't true for every group though, clearly.

But the sewers are clearly enough of a part of the daily life of Rebels to where dying to NPC's or having sweeps come through for breaking cameras is a problem. If they weren't, you wouldn't be against both of those things - nobody would care if OTA were running through a part of the map that nobody used.

I assume that this is because that just because your group may not be in them at any given moment doesn't mean nobody is - and currently, your actions could potentially get them all killed (or vice-versa; you could die from someone else shooting a cop you never knew about). That's not exactly a good feeling, I know.

I've don't find that sort of thing fair, or fun. I used to think it was a valid way for a server to run but now I'm very much in the other camp.

Future-proofing is important, ultimately.

In terms of how rebels use sewers, there are smugglers underground that rotate periodically and you visit as an alternative to the normal shipment ordering BMD system. Everyone has access to them and can buy/sell from them, but people generally just sell to them to get rebel currency which they spend in the economy elsewhere. Additionally there are scrap spawns, some on the surface but most of these underground. The gas system means you cannot stay underground indefinitely, and the longer you stay, the more you must wait before going down again - so generally if you have a reason to go underground, you go, you do it, you leave.

As a result, if you're smart you should never be underground for more than 30 - 60 minutes at a time, and ideally no more than 5 or 10. I keep my smuggling runs to three minutes. So the consequence of this is that unless you are extremely unlucky, you won't get caught in a sweep - although it is still possible. Especially if you're a vortigaunt who has no choice but to be underground and can ignore the gas system.

OTA/CP will never go underground for no reason at all, there will always be a reason - but some of the reasons are a little silly. But for example, the reason CP were down for the vortigaunt fight today was related to the sabotaging of the lift done by rebels before the previous OTA ambush. The truth is that CP/OTA will sweep after action against the union, so when you know action has been done against the union recently - don't go underground until you know they've completed their sweep. Once they're done, they should not return. Personally, I want to tighten up some of the reasons that Combine factions sweep, but the idea in and of itself is sound.

 

[Noh]

Tbh, the sewers aren't in all that of a horrible place right now. Yeah, there are dangers there with NPCs. But for the average Civilian/Rebel, the danger isn't that high so long as an admin isn't down there spawning NPCs to get you. My first day on the server consisted of me and a few other civvies walking around for about an hour down there, slowly getting that spore to build up, but only ever encounter one NPC which we just ran from since we couldn't fight it. It was dangerous, and we got afraid when we couldn't escape, but we had that sense of danger. An uncurated experience.

On the other hand, you got CP Sweeps of the sewers which, from my experience, are mostly reactionary. I; E: Biotics spotted, escorting CWU to fix tech, or just culling necrotic/parasite populations. These are honestly more so 'hosted' at times by the admins of the server and are meant to incite a form of danger to the CPs', though other times, like today, you do get that unpredictability with the players being down there at the wrong time. And tbh, it's fine if it's like an admin event char rping a fight and pking someone, or a TBC fight with that event char/player char - but when it comes to NPCs, it can feel cheap to the player - especially if Garrys Mod Jank gets in on the deal and kills off your character just because a gameplay mechanic didn't work properly - then being told "its either NLR or PK"., it can be fairly off-putting to a person.

GMOD is known for its jank, especially with scripts and NPCs, so dying to an NPC in the sewers in a fashion that makes no sense may be off-putting for people and can seem really harsh when you just got unlucky thanks to a buggy npc that all ur stats and such are now gone and so is the chars story, less you get an appeal. IMO, unless it's curated, a single NPC should rarely, if ever, be able to PK a person. As the ramifications of that are just huge. The player may feel their time was wasted, they get annoyed, all that - and I'm sure if appealed it'd be fine. But it's still an off-putting thing to have to do, and know that it can happen at any time thanks to poor luck gameplay-wise.

TLDR: The sewer as a place of fear is a good idea, and there should be danger - some NPC's sprinkled here or there to spice it up, players fighting other players, all that - but NPCs themselves shouldn't really be able to PK a character based on gameplay mechanics, as it's a one-time situation not curated that can end a person's char' that they've worked on for weeks, if not months, and spoil the enjoyment. And can be prone to messing up, without an admin there to witness the issue.

 

[Atle]

If you die to being bugged out by NPCs or the like it is encouraged to make a forum PK appeal, we're quite leniant when a PK is caused solely due to such. Lots of interesting viewpoints on this one but we'll be sticking to our current design goal. We will not be removing PKs from the underground nor reduce the difficulty at the moment.

DENIED