Implemented PK rule change

[Daniel Sanders]

This falls under the 'where should CP draw the line' discussion I mentioned. I do not think making this PK's for them will change much to what they will sweep for.

In fact, if the guy with the machete becomes a risk to them, I would be more interested to go deal with him. The only change is that I'd bring more units so we can check the entire slums and avoid being jumped on by surprise.

The proper solution to the above problem is to establish better criteria of what needs to be a sweep and what shouldn't - I think that is far more effective.

Sounds good, too! Is this included in the upcoming changes?

 

[𝔄𝔪𝔟𝔢𝔯𝔮]

yes

 

[Gyrann]

You cannot remove a lead from their position by PK'ing them. Faction lead is an OOC position, and the position of OfC is tied to that. IC'ly it matters very little anyway - hence why these deaths often do not even meet the PK criteria and the digit change is more of a courtesy to at least give you some bragging rights.

It was just an example about unit X being cloned after getting pked, of course leads would have a form of immunity.

A PK can never be a form of punishment. They are a narrative tool to keep things going and continue other character's their story in a realistic manner. Problem is with CP's - one dies and another one takes his place, the PK usually has very little impact on the story. I will definitely not allow PK's to be applied as any form of OOC punishment.

A REAL pk risk is a great way to prevent cps from engaging in ridiculous and unrealistic actions knowing they won't get "punished" if they die.

No CP is asking to sweep just because they want to. Sweeps only happen because CP has to. Usually it means a rebel crossed a line and did something that the Combine simply cannot ignore. You can argue a lot about where that line should be drawn, but that changes nothing to the discussion here. In the end, we give rebels a hand by not steamrolling over them, while also making sure they don't take the whole arm. Part of this is also for server balance reasons and not because we as a faction want to (imagine rebels attacking loyalists on the plaza because no CP wants to respond and get PK'ed). Nobody is asking rebels OOC'ly to attack CP's, but we are asking OOC'ly for CP's to deal with rebels when they start doing stupid stuff - otherwise I get complaints that my faction isn't functioning properly if we do not respond.

Rebels are always at risk of PK in the sewers for the sole reason that they are in the sewers and what they do on a daily basis, it is part of their roleplay model.

Civil Protection units should be at risk of PK for the sole reason that they are doing their job and death is part of their job. They are forced to respond because if they don't they'll get deserviced (again, part of the job/whitelist).
It seems the CPs are definitely favored by a double standard.

And again, what point is there in a PK if you don't lose anything except your personality, at this point just NLR all units right? A person who gets PKED on their unit should lose as much as a person who loses their rebel character. Yet it's clear that units don't lose anything when getting PKED since what people really care about is the rank.

A rebel main will lose hundreds of hours spent on character development and scripts(yea, scripts matter). A CP will lose exactly nothing as of now

 

[Maroon]

Dying in the line of duty seems like it's more than fair to me. To remedy the risk, a greater reward should be given out to units that participate in sweeps. Based on their performance, this can range from an outright promotion to a hefty SC reward. You can argue that rebels have more agency when it comes to their actions - and they do - but they are just as critical to the server as Civil Protection is.

As things stand, the squad system already had the major drawback that it's completely static. At some point, the i2/i1 cap is going to be reached, and any and all ranks below that are essentially stuck in limbo. I recall a rank leader that already died 3 times, and they still manage to hold onto their position. This, I think, is a deeper problem that has to do with the distrust of the current faction leads for units that are not in their immediate circle. I don't think being a rank leader is necessarily so challenging as some make it out to be, and I welcome the idea of a more fluent system that will allow people of different styles to breathe fresh air into the faction.

The current situation is that, until perpetuity, the same people will always be in charge. You will forever have the same NCO's, with the exemption if they get booted from the position due to some OOC fault (which, in my opinion, is already extremely lax. If multiple counts of power gaming and a count of RDM isn't reason enough to reduce a rank, then I don't know what is). The sense of progression will inevitably stagnate until mid-and low-tier cops get bored and stop playing.

A dewhitelist is extreme. An outright reset to i5, I feel, is as well. I propose a middle ground where all units - excluding rank leaders - get lowered by one rank. Rank leaders themselves should also not be exempt from this, but I recognize that their role is of somewhat significance. I have thought of two situations for that:

A) Either rank leaders are put on a life system. If they somehow die more than 3 times, they are PK'd and removed from their position.
B) Rank leaders fall under the blanket rule of derank upon death. To not entirely destabilize the faction, it should be enforced that they *always* have a second in command that can take over in case of death.

Frankly, the entire system is super stagnant right now. There is no challenge as a CP. No sense of urgency or danger. Losing a rank is shit, but so is getting PK'd, and every other faction has to deal with that every day to uphold their role in the server that already shafts them on nearly every other front. I'm a cop main, and I think harsher PK rules will bring about a positive change that will see competent cops rewarded.

 

[Gyrann]

Dying in the line of duty seems like it's more than fair to me. To remedy the risk, a greater reward should be given out to units that participate in sweeps. Based on their performance, this can range from an outright promotion to a hefty SC reward. You can argue that rebels have more agency when it comes to their actions - and they do - but they are just as critical to the server as Civil Protection is.

As things stand, the squad system already had the major drawback that it's completely static. At some point, the i2/i1 cap is going to be reached, and any and all ranks below that are essentially stuck in limbo. I recall a rank leader that already died 3 times, and they still manage to hold onto their position. This, I think, is a deeper problem that has to do with the distrust of the current faction leads for units that are not in their direct circle. I don't think being a rank leader is necessarily so challenging as some make it out to be, and I welcome the idea of a more fluent system that will allow people of different styles to breathe fresh air into the faction.

The current situation is that, until perpetuity, the same people will always be in charge. You will forever have the same NCO's, with the exemption if they get booted from the position due to some OOC fault (which, in my opinion, is already extremely lax. If multiple counts of power gaming and a count of RDM isn't reason enough to reduce a rank, then I don't know what is). The sense of progression will inevitably stagnate until mid-and low-tier cops get bored and stop playing.

A dewhitelist is extreme. An outright reset to i5, I feel, is as well. I propose a middle ground where all units - excluding rank leaders - get lowered by one rank. Rank leaders themselves should also not be exempt from this, but I recognize that their role is of somewhat significance. I have thought of two situations for that:

A) Either rank leaders are put on a life system. If they somehow die more than 3 times, they are PK'd and removed from their position.
B) Rank leaders fall under the blanket rule of derank upon death. To not entirely destabilize the faction, it should be enforced that they *always* have a second in command that can take over in case of death.

Frankly, the entire system is super stagnant right now. There is no challenge as a CP. No sense of urgency or danger. Losing a rank is shit, but so is getting PK'd, and every other faction has to deal with that every day to uphold their role in the server that already shafts them on nearly every other front. I'm a cop main, and I think harsher PK rules will bring about a positive change that will see competent cops rewarded.

I agree with everything. Lack of PKs and consequent demotions will cause stagnancy sooner or later.

 

[𝔄𝔪𝔟𝔢𝔯𝔮]

Dying in the line of duty seems like it's more than fair to me. To remedy the risk, a greater reward should be given out to units that participate in sweeps. Based on their performance, this can range from an outright promotion to a hefty SC reward. You can argue that rebels have more agency when it comes to their actions - and they do - but they are just as critical to the server as Civil Protection is.


.................

I'd say A out of those two.

 

[Rabid]

Basing your OOC balance on an IC "well maybe they'll just not sweep as often if they fear a PK" is an absolutely abysmal way to run things. It doesn't work the way people are hoping it will.

Rebels are not forced to go into the sewer. They are not forced to put themselves in compromising situations. The comparison to cops sweeping is a blatantly false one.

A Cop is part of the greater balance of the server to ensure rebels do not do something as batshit as storm the city or get away with 'rebellious acts'. They are entirely reactionary in their model - which is why they (unlike rebels) can and will be baited if people realise they can PK them for catching them out.

What happens when the faction begins to refuse to sweep even when it is needed because they could risk a PK for being forced into it? What happens when you PK your RL's and whatever else and are left with units who have no business being in command?

Actual equality would be if rebels were forced to run into the city whenever they got word a cop did something to try and kill them. If you wanted a gun as a rebel this would be mandatory and if you refuse you get PK'd. But naturally that idea is stupid and you wouldn't get PK'd for it, why is that being applied to cops?

 

[RedHotGinger]

What happens when the faction begins to refuse to sweep even when it is needed because they could risk a PK for being forced into it? What happens when you PK your RL's and whatever else and are left with units who have no business being in command?

Then you deal with this ICly. If a unit is refusing to do what they signed up for they are going to be handled as a result.

My personal take is that if you are willing to PK six citizens, then you are more than capable of being vulnerable to them yourself. Also if CP's get baited? All good. Rebel victory in that case. You take the whitelist knowing exactly what it entails. protocol, power, and possibility of death. You cant pick and choose which you are applied.

It seems some people are falling under the false impression that CP's exist for the sole purpose of being an impregnable wall to anti-citizens. Which isn't true. They are the opposition - but they are not invincible. They can be bested.

 

[Rabid]

Then you deal with this ICly. If a unit is refusing to do what they signed up for they are going to be handled as a result.

Then apply this to rebels. If you decide to be a rebel (and want a gun) you are expected to attack the city whenever a cop PK's someone or does something you "should" respond to. If you die doing it, you are PK'd. If you refuse to do it, you are PK'd.

It won't last long, but this would be actual equality between the two factions - not just acknowledging the risks that only one side has and going "oh well, good enough".

My personal take is that if you are willing to PK six citizens, then you are more than capable of being vulnerable to them yourself.

I absolutely agree.

But not in the case of something the faction has no choice in doing for the sake of server balance. Its different if you get shot for something like snatching a guy off the streets or beating someone to death.

Also if CP's get baited? All good. Rebel victory in that case. You take the whitelist knowing exactly what it entails. protocol, power, and possibility of death. You cant pick and choose which you are applied.

Maybe the first or second time it happens, sure.

What's the plan when it becomes frequent and the faction is crippled? Because this has happened to just about every community I can think to name that had CP PK's on for sweeps. It has never worked before and I don't see what sets WN apart that will suddenly make it work here.

People knew Molotovs were broken. I still saw a video where someone willingly used it to wipe out a sweep after shotcopping to get a reaction. Clearly there are people who can and will game the system; you are enabling them to do so when Civil Protection is forced to respond while also being PKable for doing that.

It seems some people are falling under the false impression that CP's exist for the sole purpose of being an impregnable wall to anti-citizens. Which isn't true. They are the opposition - but they are not invincible. They can be bested.

Again, absolutely. They are a foe who can be bested and killed, as they should be. They are also an OOC balance check. If you hinge the entire thing on "cops will be too afraid to sweep because they risk death" and expect that to moderate itself, it isn't going to. The balance will tip in favour of Rebels.

 

[AdamCF]

If you decide to be a rebel (and want a gun) you are expected to attack the city whenever a cop PK's someone or does something you "should" respond to. If you die doing it, you are PK'd. If you refuse to do it, you are PK'd.

 

[Gr4Ss]

Dying in the line of duty seems like it's more than fair to me. To remedy the risk, a greater reward should be given out to units that participate in sweeps. Based on their performance, this can range from an outright promotion to a hefty SC reward. You can argue that rebels have more agency when it comes to their actions - and they do - but they are just as critical to the server as Civil Protection is.

Promotion's aren't a 'you did one thing well' though, and we thus cannot use that here. Promotions are for units who consistently show good quality RP and have experience with how the faction functions. Creating shortcuts through introducing risks by making sewer deaths a PK by default and rewarding units with promotion to participate will just kill the quality in the faction. We want to promote people who aren't after gunning down rebels.

As things stand, the squad system already had the major drawback that it's completely static. At some point, the i2/i1 cap is going to be reached, and any and all ranks below that are essentially stuck in limbo. I recall a rank leader that already died 3 times, and they still manage to hold onto their position. This, I think, is a deeper problem that has to do with the distrust of the current faction leads for units that are not in their immediate circle. I don't think being a rank leader is necessarily so challenging as some make it out to be, and I welcome the idea of a more fluent system that will allow people of different styles to breathe fresh air into the faction.

Rank leader = OOC position. We are NOT ever ever ever removing people from OOC positions if they die, how often must I say that? They get given a lot of freedom and as the beta indicated a lot of good CP's aren't cut out for it (as we had to remove RL's that were good CP's, just bad rank leaders).

Thank you for the great trust you put into me however! (/s)

The current situation is that, until perpetuity, the same people will always be in charge. You will forever have the same NCO's, with the exemption if they get booted from the position due to some OOC fault (which, in my opinion, is already extremely lax. If multiple counts of power gaming and a count of RDM isn't reason enough to reduce a rank, then I don't know what is). The sense of progression will inevitably stagnate until mid-and low-tier cops get bored and stop playing.

Ranking up shouldn't be easy IMHO. Especially for i3-i1 - these are above average units, meaning by definition that a solid chunk of the CP faction will never be good enough to hold this rank. I have never seen this be a problem on any server (even serious military RP where only x NCO positions are available and they only free up when people go inactive).

A dewhitelist is extreme. An outright reset to i5, I feel, is as well. I propose a middle ground where all units - excluding rank leaders - get lowered by one rank. Rank leaders themselves should also not be exempt from this, but I recognize that their role is of somewhat significance. I have thought of two situations for that:

A) Either rank leaders are put on a life system. If they somehow die more than 3 times, they are PK'd and removed from their position.
B) Rank leaders fall under the blanket rule of derank upon death. To not entirely destabilize the faction, it should be enforced that they *always* have a second in command that can take over in case of death.

Quality over stupid rules that force me to demote good people.

Or I will just repromote them as soon as they made their new character. IC is IC right?

Frankly, the entire system is super stagnant right now. There is no challenge as a CP. No sense of urgency or danger. Losing a rank is shit, but so is getting PK'd, and every other faction has to deal with that every day to uphold their role in the server that already shafts them on nearly every other front. I'm a cop main, and I think harsher PK rules will bring about a positive change that will see competent cops rewarded.

As I said, I do not mind CP PK's being a thing, but I firmly believe they are a lot worse for rebels than things are now. Yes, PK'ing a unit is hard now, but in return CP's will barely retaliate for one of them dying. Question is do we want to risk an all-out PK war, or leave things as is and instead consider looking at e.g. sweep criteria?

This thread was made because of people perceiving an apparent imbalance between CP and rebel. I do not believe introducing PK's fixes that.

 

[Robert]

Going to move this to ACCEPTED

HOWEVER,

This will undergo discussions FIRST before anything is implemented. PKs for CPs can be delicate due to the nature of the CP faction workings. That and will need to discuss with PK manager about any changes made to PKs.