PK Staff Bad Faith Report

[dusty]

Today my character Yuriy 'Mowgli' Yamadayev, shot down another character called Luca 'Cash' (something).

The event prior was simple bickering which boiled over into something more sinnister. Seeing how Luca had a gun in his hands, punching Luca wasn't an option, not unless Mowgli wanted to get whacked with the butt of the gun, or shot. So Mowgli escalated the situation by shooting Luca in the face, multiple times.
I should note how this situation can be seen from either side. Both Luca, and Mowgli, instigated the situation with verbal arguing. But in the end, the final straw came from Luca insulting both Mowgli and his friend who was present at the time too, Fixer.

I'll let the admins show the logs for this situation if they decide to. But long story short, the death of Luca was voided, something which I had no problem with. However, during the aftermath of Lucas' death, Mowgli was shot and killed, resulting in a PK. I am not appealing my PK, because I am a firm believer in what happens, happens. So long as a rule break isn't present, it should stand.

The PK rules state: Reasons such as: Personal dislike, verbal insults, vague/uncredible threats, wanting items or money, someone stealing your items, assaulting you or a friend without lethal force or suspicion all do not count towards a PK. This includes killing someone merely over being Rebel or Loyalist.

Again, I should mention. I never was pushing for a PK. I was simply informed that it would NOT be a PK, after the scenario ended. Which, I was fine with. Until I heard that my character would be PK'd. So I'll refer to the rule above again. If it doesn't fall under the "The Roleplay PK Criteria" then it surely would also not carry over to my character, Mowgli.

[PM] Neonity (Neonity): In this situation, your reasoning for attempting to kill Luca was flawed. Nevertheless, your character did attempt to take his life, but failed ICly. Other characters allied with Luca were henceforth allowed to take action against your character, with reasoning befitting the PK Policy, which in turn makes your death the valid one.

Here, Neonity claims that my PK is the valid one. Again I was not pushing for a PK. I was perfectly fine with NLR, and I'm reminding you that I am not appealing my PK by any means, this is just a report on the PK staffs poor handling of the situation. So, back to the quote just above. Neonity claims that "your character did attempt to take his life, but failed ICly." But he didn't fail. He mag dumped him in the face, and dumped his body off the cliff, where he bled out and died. I understand if it doesn't befit the PK rules, and so why should it "make your death the valid one" in this scenario? It appears that the character 'Luca' has OOC plot armour surrounding his character. My character attacked him, in the hopes of killing him, (again I will reiterate that I, OOCLY, did not care to PK) and when he DID die. My character was also dead.

My problem lays with the fact that not only my character has been PK'd, but my characters friend, Fixer, in my opinion was wrongfully PK'd. Either all characters are PK'd, or none. That is my only problem.

I will also leave this to the discussion of the staff team, that ultima has in the past falsely banned me, and as the staff handling my PK during the scene, I feel like there might have been some conflicting feelings which have made them make the wrong decision here.

 

[Gutsy]

Section 2 subsections 3,4, you attempted to take the life of one of my cell members with many others present witness to the crime.
Wheras your attempt to PK luca is section to Section 3.

Theres a reason I PERSONALLY ask staff to see what my options are BEFORE proceeding with Pk's. To make sure shit like this doesn't happen.

 

[Rabithunter]

Hello! Thank you for making a report.

After reading through this I can see you have an issue primarily with a PK. I dont see where Neonity has supposedly abused their admin powers in a manner outlined by the now written abuse report guide.

I ask that you make a PK appeal in the relevant forum thread, as this to me feels as though it has no weight or baring on abuse from Neonity.

I'll leave this thread open for the time being as you may have a response to what I have said.

Thank you!

 

[ultima]

Btw it wasn't me that banned you.

 

[dusty]

Hello! Thank you for making a report.

After reading through this I can see you have an issue primarily with a PK. I dont see where Neonity has supposedly abused their admin powers in a manner outlined by the now written abuse report guide.

I ask that you make a PK appeal in the relevant forum thread, as this to me feels as though it has no weight or baring on abuse from Neonity.

I'll leave this thread open for the time being as you may have a response to what I have said.

Thank you!

This isn't a report on a specific staff member. Just a bad faith report on the PK staff and the wording of the rules. And if you read my original post, I am not appealing my PK. My problem isn't with my PK, it's with the unfair treatment regarding the role-play scenario when you take the rules into consideration as they are written.

 

[dusty]

View attachment 34095
Section 2 subsections 3,4, you attempted to take the life of one of my cell members with many others present witness to the crime.
Wheras your attempt to PK luca is section to Section 3.

Theres a reason I PERSONALLY ask staff to see what my options are BEFORE proceeding with Pk's. To make sure shit like this doesn't happen.

The rules say "concrete threats made against your character" Luca, didn't fire a single shot. Your, meaning his character. If we're following the rules as they are written, Luca is the only one who could have perma killed my character as a result of my characters actions. And, again. In case you missed it, I was not trying to PK Luca. So that's my reason for not asking the staff what my options were. I went with the scenario that was most realistic for the character I was portraying.

 

[Gutsy]

Thats why I cut in section 4, listen. The reason you got stuffed is because you didn't go through the proper process of a PK.
Cover your ass always, ask first, then act.

 

[dusty]

you didn't go through the proper process of a PK.

Because I didn't want to PK anyone. I come from GTA:W, a community which handles NLR in a very specific way.

When a character dies, you continue RP as you would normally, treat it as a PK. But then if it's only an NLR, and not a PK. Then you still continue the RP. But treat the person who died, as if they were someone else. Give them a fake name, say "John Doe", what ever makes the most sense.

The problem here is that the NLR rule is vague. Whether that is intentional or not I don't know. I suggest a re-write of the PK/NLR rules to further clarify this shit show so that it doesn't happen to anyone else in the future.

 

[Neonity]

Hey.

I was personally summoned into a chat in the midst of Luca's PK, along with @Gutsy (who was woken up by it) and @ultima as PK Manager at the time.
I joined the game and was filled in on the situation through a combination of staff-VC and in-game staff chats giving me context on what happened. What I was told was that your character killed Luca with barely any roleplay and over really poor reasoning (minor verbal altercation). After reviewing the logs of the situation I was inclined to agree with that assessment and we discussed how to take the situation further.

Whilst I initially wanted to fully void the situation, I later turned around and instead agreed that we didn't want to interrupt the flow of roleplay too much and instead have the situation play out as it did, with Luca not dying out in bleed out instead. Nothing changes in the scenario except that the medical script was ICly applied seconds earlier, as the person administering aid had Luca in her hands while he "bled out". See, the difference here was about a minute, if being generous. Regardless, Luca died in the middle of an RP situation with someone going out of their way to be descriptive in their attempt to save him, which they weren't obligated to. We didn't feel like punishing them for writing detailed /me's as opposed to rushing to him and spamming medical items. Thus, in our review, we decided to have it play out like actually intended by the players.

If they did start the roleplay earlier by using a medical item script right away (which was within their right) Luca would've survived in time just fine. That is why we were so inclined to have the situation play out the way it did. Luca died whilst they were writing a /me, which wasn't even the first /me they had done in the scenario. Commendable RP from them. Something to be rewarded, not punished.

---

Anyway,

Your character's death was deemed valid as the others in the scenario would have had appropriate reason to take action against you, considering they just witnessed you attempt to murder their ally, and throw him off a cliff. That gives them full permission to retaliate against you, regardless of whether Luca survives or not. Of course, my judgement could be wrong. I won't claim to be perfect, and I can't know for certain whether your characters have had extensive history that actually warrants a response like this. Especially not when having to decide between life or death within a moment's notice. (This is why PK requests and actually calling staff BEFORE you do this is a thing, as Gutsy pointed out).

While obviously hypocritical of me to say, considering I'm the target of the report, this isn't an abuse of power. I have no idea who you are, and this is the first time I've heard of you. I have nothing against you, and we have no prior interactions to my knowledge. It's only after you linked the final segment of this post that I remembered your old username. If anything, you could instead argue that if there was anyone I'd actually be biased against, it'd be Luca, considering 2/3 of his server bans were given by me and we have had arguably negative interactions in the past. Not with you though, to my knowledge.

Understandably, having to make these decisions on a rushed basis while trying to scrape together as much context as you can is difficult (hell, I'm not PK Manager and do NOT want to be), and these decisions will always be controversial. Especially when you have minutes to decide on it without destroying the flow of roleplay. Nobody will ever see eye-to-eye on situations like this, but that can't be considered abuse.

If anything, a complaint or PK Appeal would be more appropriate if you still insist on pursuing this. Let me know if you have further questions.

 

[dusty]

Your character's death was deemed valid as the others in the scenario would have had appropriate reason to take action against you, considering they just witnessed you attempt to murder their ally, and throw him off a cliff. That gives them full permission to retaliate against you

Where in the rules does it justify a PK against my character though? I've checked and the closest thing that would justify the PK folding over to my character is

Retaliation against credible, concrete threats made against your character, where retaliation is vital to survive.

But this is worded in a way that implies that the only way that my character should have been PK'd is if he died via injuries sustained by the person he was attacking, in this case Luca.

This is just another case of the rules being vague again, it's not my job as a player to figure out what way the staff want me to interpret them.

 

[dusty]

The closest thing I can see to support your claim is this.



But this is directly contradicted by the Roleplay PK Criteria rules, which state.


I should have specified this for your logs, but under a week ago, Luca threatened Mowgli's life, on the XPO server. The entire situation was an IN-CHARACTER misunderstanding, but the threat on Mowgli's life was very much real. Understanding this, I would have been within my right to attempt to PK Luca right then and there.

I've gone through the rules, and I see nothing that implies that there is a time limit on when the threats that justify a PK will expire.

 

[Hayden]

I would say the highlighted rule applies here. Your character attempted to kill a ally of the players involved, and they then went on to kill you. I would say that is a equal action, and while I didn't witness the altercation, it sounds like the players involved might not have known if Luca was going to survive or not. To me it sounds like they saw you shoot their friend and throw them off a cliff, and immediately proceeded to attack you while a third party ran down to provide medical assistance to Luca.

Regardless - even if they were aware that Luca survived the initial attack and was just severely wounded, they would have been within their right to proceed with attacking you from my interpretation of the PK rules. But a discussion of this calibre is best to be dealt with in the proper section, the PK appeals area of the forums, just so things are easier to keep track of. If you feel there was wrongdoing in how you were PK'd I would suggest writing a complaint at the same time, if your complaint is found to be valid, it's entirely possible that the PK appeal may be accepted at the same time, but standard operating procedure is to write a PK appeal and a complaint so both can be discussed by staff at the same time, and to avoid a overly arduous discussion.

To clarify what I mean, as I know I may be rambling due to this earache eating away at my focus;
Staff will examine the PK reason under the perspective of a entirely third party, with the complaint of potential bad faith in mind. They will determine, after a lengthy discussion, if they would have dealt with it in the same way, and if the reason your character was PK'd is valid. After said discussion, the Head Of Staff or Server Council will act on the complaint accordingly.

 

[dusty]

View attachment 34100
I would say the highlighted rule applies here. Your character attempted to kill a ally of the players involved, and they then went on to kill you. I would say that is a equal action, and while I didn't witness the altercation, it sounds like the players involved might not have known if Luca was going to survive or not. To me it sounds like they saw you shoot their friend and throw them off a cliff, and immediately proceeded to attack you while a third party ran down to provide medical assistance to Luca.

Regardless - even if they were aware that Luca survived the initial attack and was just severely wounded, they would have been within their right to proceed with attacking you from my interpretation of the PK rules. But a discussion of this calibre is best to be dealt with in the proper section, the PK appeals area of the forums, just so things are easier to keep track of. If you feel there was wrongdoing in how you were PK'd I would suggest writing a complaint at the same time, if your complaint is found to be valid, it's entirely possible that the PK appeal may be accepted at the same time, but standard operating procedure is to write a PK appeal and a complaint so both can be discussed by staff at the same time, and to avoid a overly arduous discussion.

To clarify what I mean, as I know I may be rambling due to this earache eating away at my focus;
Staff will examine the PK reason under the perspective of a entirely third party, with the complaint of potential bad faith in mind. They will determine, after a lengthy discussion, if they would have dealt with it in the same way, and if the reason your character was PK'd is valid. After said discussion, the Head Of Staff or Server Council will act on the complaint accordingly.

Thanks for highlighting that. I have no idea how I missed it. I rescind this post.