Rank Leader council

[z KillerMuffin]

This post is being spawned purely for the reasoning of one of the abuse threads.

In all honesty, I haven't seen much of the issues firsthand, but I hear a lot of people complaining about it. This post is outlining Rank Leaders and Command units jumping to the conclusion of the worst punishment for every unit violation committed.

When I was Rank Leader a long-ish time ago, any time we wanted to de-service a unit under anything but extreme circumstances, we had to have a meeting and vote on the de-servicement of said unit, almost as if it were a trial. And despite the vote, we would even pull the unit up in front of all the Rank Leaders and kind of give them a voice, and do some trial-type RP with them for them to plead their case. I think it was a pretty interesting RP to do, and actually gave the player a chance to get out of it. I don't know what the current policy is, or if things like that actually happen still, but I think it could be beneficial to people if that were to return. Compared to when I first started at Willard to now, it does kind of feel like you have a lot less freedom to RP as anything other than a robocop. Punishments feel more strict, and the rules feel more strict. It's a good and bad thing at the same time, given that it's a serious faction with needed serious consequences. I just wanted to spark a discussion for others to talk about if this is something people really want to see returned.

I also think a larger variety of punishments should be available, aside from the standard de-servicement or blackmark. As I said before, I don't know a lot of them first-hand since I'm pretty decent about flying under the radar IC, but I would like to see more of the following. Unit beatings, where a unit fucks up not terribly, but enough for the RLs to gather up some units on duty to give out some re-education to the punished unit. Monetary fines (for smaller infractions to include STC removal as well), mandatory inspections of said unit who gets under the watch of Command. To elaborate on the inspections part, if a unit continuously is getting in trouble over smaller things, it could be a way for them to fix themselves but also kind of get hounded/harassed by Rank Leaders or i1s/2s if they're attracting all of that negative attention. It's the feeling of knowing that you can't have unauthorized shit on you and to build a trail of your fuck-ups, giving the RLs a chance to build a punishment trail to escalate things into higher punishments in the future. But of course with this, you'd also have the chance to just do the right thing and be a squared away unit (or seemingly) enough for them to finally leave you alone. Just some ideas.

Sorry that the formatting of this is dogshit. I'm not very good at making my long yapping rants appealing to read. But hopefully it gets the idea across. I'd love to see some additional ideas below.

 

[Rebel RP Philosopher]

ChatGPT TLDR: The post discusses issues with how punishments are handed out in a certain setting, suggesting a return to a more democratic and roleplay-oriented process for deciding consequences. It also proposes a wider range of punishments including unit beatings, monetary fines, and mandatory inspections to address smaller infractions and encourage better behavior among players. Overall, it aims to spark a discussion on potential improvements to the current system.

 

[Rebel RP Philosopher]

When I was Rank Leader a long-ish time ago, any time we wanted to de-service a unit under anything but extreme circumstances, we had to have a meeting and vote on the de-servicement of said unit, almost as if it were a trial. And despite the vote, we would even pull the unit up in front of all the Rank Leaders and kind of give them a voice, and do some trial-type RP with them for them to plead their case.

Spoiler: Thought on Deservicement Trials

I believe a consequence of this changing to more a ruthless punishment system is because it there'd be a trial for each deservicement which leads to PK would it lead to two trials. One being that of in-character, second being a complaint kicking it to an OOC PK-appeal or abuse report. These stacked trials are resource intensive for roleplay as PKs are common place, and if repealed, would result to a lot of RP being experienced as wasted by several characters involved.

Ruthless execution of punishments lead to a better flow of roleplay, and if there is unfairness, it can be reviewed thoroughly in the appeal or abuse report which grants players access to logs through the administration and the right of discourse in figuring out if it was unfair, all parties abiding the same set of server rules so there is no asymmetry of information.

TLDR: Accounting CP players the rights for an IC Trial + OOC Trial is a Resource Intensive endeavor.

I also think a larger variety of punishments should be available, aside from the standard de-servicement or blackmark. As I said before, I don't know a lot of them first-hand since I'm pretty decent about flying under the radar IC, but I would like to see more of the following. Unit beatings, where a unit fucks up not terribly, but enough for the RLs to gather up some units on duty to give out some re-education to the punished unit. Monetary fines (for smaller infractions to include STC removal as well), mandatory inspections of said unit who gets under the watch of Command. To elaborate on the inspections part, if a unit continuously is getting in trouble over smaller things, it could be a way for them to fix themselves but also kind of get hounded/harassed by Rank Leaders or i1s/2s if they're attracting all of that negative attention. It's the feeling of knowing that you can't have unauthorized shit on you and to build a trail of your fuck-ups, giving the RLs a chance to build a punishment trail to escalate things into higher punishments in the future. But of course with this, you'd also have the chance to just do the right thing and be a squared away unit (or seemingly) enough for them to finally leave you alone. Just some ideas.

Spoiler: On CP Infraction Protocols

Infractions are handled by Ministry of Civil Protection internal affairs, faction is managed by @HOKI as is implied in their info page:

INTERNAL AFFAIRS
The Internal Affairs department manages the internal affairs of the Civil Protection Metropolice, resolving any issues and quelling rogue activity, occasionally assisting Civil Protection command with management.

INSPECTOR
Inspectors -- also known as Investigators -- are deputies of the Ministry primarily tasked with internal affairs, inspecting the force for breaches of protocol, managing their Campaign For Obedience detachment and liaising with local organizations and investigating them when prompted.​

​

 

[Hiros]

In all honesty, I haven't seen much of the issues firsthand, but I hear a lot of people complaining about it. This post is outlining Rank Leaders and Command units jumping to the conclusion of the worst punishment for every unit violation committed.

What you've heard is overly exaggerated most of the time.

RL council exists, we have meetings about promotions or IC things to discuss. There was no real need for IC trials yet, or if punishments were handed out they were to the point there is no need for discussion (Exception is Talia, No clue what even happened)

I also think a larger variety of punishments should be available, aside from the standard de-servicement or blackmark. As I said before, I don't know a lot of them first-hand since I'm pretty decent about flying under the radar IC, but I would like to see more of the following. Unit beatings, where a unit fucks up not terribly, but enough for the RLs to gather up some units on duty to give out some re-education to the punished unit. Monetary fines (for smaller infractions to include STC removal as well), mandatory inspections of said unit who gets under the watch of Command. To elaborate on the inspections part, if a unit continuously is getting in trouble over smaller things, it could be a way for them to fix themselves but also kind of get hounded/harassed by Rank Leaders

Already a thing, units got STC removals, beatings, fines, family punishment, outland duties, black marks.

worst punishment for every unit violation committed.

Not actually true. What you saw are two people, one of them fully deserved the punishment, other could've been less

 

[Wraygun]

What you've heard is overly exaggerated most of the time.

RL council exists, we have meetings about promotions or IC things to discuss. There was no real need for IC trials yet, or if punishments were handed out they were to the point there is no need for discussion (Exception is Talia, No clue what even happened)




Already a thing, units got STC removals, beatings, fines, family punishment, outland duties, black marks.



Not actually true. What you saw are two people, one of them fully deserved the punishment, other could've been less

Pretty sure Muffin is aware that all these exist. The issue at hand is that they're not being followed thoroughly. (IC issue btw)

 

[z KillerMuffin]

What you've heard is overly exaggerated most of the time.

RL council exists, we have meetings about promotions or IC things to discuss. There was no real need for IC trials yet, or if punishments were handed out they were to the point there is no need for discussion (Exception is Talia, No clue what even happened)




Already a thing, units got STC removals, beatings, fines, family punishment, outland duties, black marks.



Not actually true. What you saw are two people, one of them fully deserved the punishment, other could've been less

I think you're confusing the message of this post. No one is arguing that these things don't exist, or that they don't happen at all. It's to say that they, in my opinion, should be happening more often. I know that everything is typically exaggerated. As you know, I've been staff here before, and staff on plenty of other servers. Roleplayers have a nasty habit of exaggerating everything to make it look like they're right. However, I'm not here and now to argue on their behalf. I'm just saying, it's something I'd like to see more of. I don't really care about people's complaints since I don't have a position of authority or a meaningful opinion at this community anymore and I'm fine with that, but I think since I've returned, I haven't seen any of what I mentioned on the initial thread. Just remember, just because this post is here, doesn't mean you guys are doing a bad job. But, that also doesn't mean the team can't improve in areas. You're never going to satisfy everyone in the playerbase, and that's understandable.

We all can do things a little bit better. I don't think the faction is bad, but the points made are just some things I, and others, would like to personally see more of.

 

[Lost Coast Chanties]

(IC issue btw)

IC must be put on the back of the bus for OOC enjoyment.

 

[Rebel RP Philosopher]

I think you're confusing the message of this post. No one is arguing that these things don't exist, or that they don't happen at all. It's to say that they, in my opinion, should be happening more often. I know that everything is typically exaggerated. As you know, I've been staff here before, and staff on plenty of other servers. Roleplayers have a nasty habit of exaggerating everything to make it look like they're right. However, I'm not here and now to argue on their behalf. I'm just saying, it's something I'd like to see more of. I don't really care about people's complaints since I don't have a position of authority or a meaningful opinion at this community anymore and I'm fine with that, but I think since I've returned, I haven't seen any of what I mentioned on the initial thread. Just remember, just because this post is here, doesn't mean you guys are doing a bad job. But, that also doesn't mean the team can't improve in areas. You're never going to satisfy everyone in the playerbase, and that's understandable.

We all can do things a little bit better. I don't think the faction is bad, but the points made are just some things I, and others, would like to personally see more of.

ChatGPT TLDR:

The author clarifies that existing issues are acknowledged but should occur more frequently. They note their past experience as staff on various servers and highlight the tendency for roleplayers to exaggerate. Despite lacking authority in the community, they express a desire for improvement and emphasize the inevitability of not satisfying everyone in the player base.

 

[Hiros]

I think you're confusing the message of this post. No one is arguing that these things don't exist, or that they don't happen at all. It's to say that they, in my opinion, should be happening more often. I know that everything is typically exaggerated. As you know, I've been staff here before, and staff on plenty of other servers. Roleplayers have a nasty habit of exaggerating everything to make it look like they're right. However, I'm not here and now to argue on their behalf. I'm just saying, it's something I'd like to see more of. I don't really care about people's complaints since I don't have a position of authority or a meaningful opinion at this community anymore and I'm fine with that, but I think since I've returned, I haven't seen any of what I mentioned on the initial thread. Just remember, just because this post is here, doesn't mean you guys are doing a bad job. But, that also doesn't mean the team can't improve in areas. You're never going to satisfy everyone in the playerbase, and that's understandable.

We all can do things a little bit better. I don't think the faction is bad, but the points made are just some things I, and others, would like to personally see more of.

Fair enough.



Like the *less severe* punishments are still handed out. Most of the time STC Reduction, 99 Charges and fines if unit messed up inspection. You most likely don't see them but they're logged under command channel

 

[z KillerMuffin]

Fair enough.



Like the *less severe* punishments are still handed out. Most of the time STC Reduction, 99 Charges and fines if unit messed up inspection. You most likely don't see them but they're logged under command channel

I see them from time to time which I personally commend when I do. Even my unit has done a lot of stupid shit (because i am a dumb minge) that I've managed to avoid punishment for out of pure luck. But part of me wants to be summoned to the Nexus by a RL, then absolutely beat the shit out of that one i5 or i4 that most of the other units hate. That might just be my ape brain thinking lol.

You guys do a good job of not airing everyone's dirty laundry out in the open, which is as it should be.

Edit: SOME of yall do a good job or not airing everyone's dirty laundry out in the open*.

 

[Hiros]

I forgor to add that the mentioned above are still handed out more often than severe ones. Most of the time Black mark is handed out if there is severe fuck up. And deservicement is handed out only if unit does something ultra fucked

 

[HOKI]

This post is being spawned purely for the reasoning of one of the abuse threads.

In all honesty, I haven't seen much of the issues firsthand, but I hear a lot of people complaining about it. This post is outlining Rank Leaders and Command units jumping to the conclusion of the worst punishment for every unit violation committed.

Currently, this is how it is due to security forces being disconnected from the Overwatch AI. It's code black (aka autonomous judgement) and therefore nearly all restrictions -- barring baseline ones (such as following orders from command) -- are waived. Units are allowed to communicate how they want over radio, prosecute people as they wish -- hence autonomous judgement -- use any weapons they might want to, barring OTA ones, etcetera etcetera.
As a result of this increased autonomy, commanding units (RLs, i1/i2s) are also granted increased autonomy to deal with punishments with how they wish to.

If you're referring to a standard circumstance, then I can see your complaint having more merit, as you wouldn't expect units to be killed off for minor things. And they shouldn't. I totally agree with that.

However, if there's no bad faith involved, it is an IC issue. There are ways of dealing with your issue in-character (provided you're not killed), and there are consequences for the punishing element for being far too callous. But if you want to take it out-of-character, there are appropriate channels: the PK appeal thread and the complaint subforums.

When I was Rank Leader a long-ish time ago, any time we wanted to de-service a unit under anything but extreme circumstances, we had to have a meeting and vote on the de-servicement of said unit, almost as if it were a trial. And despite the vote, we would even pull the unit up in front of all the Rank Leaders and kind of give them a voice, and do some trial-type RP with them for them to plead their case. I think it was a pretty interesting RP to do, and actually gave the player a chance to get out of it. I don't know what the current policy is, or if things like that actually happen still, but I think it could be beneficial to people if that were to return. Compared to when I first started at Willard to now, it does kind of feel like you have a lot less freedom to RP as anything other than a robocop. Punishments feel more strict, and the rules feel more strict. It's a good and bad thing at the same time, given that it's a serious faction with needed serious consequences. I just wanted to spark a discussion for others to talk about if this is something people really want to see returned.

I remember these 'trials'. They were incredibly fun and were roleplay-friendly.
Unfortunately, they've fallen mostly out of use because of sheer happenstance. No one said "stop doing these", as far as I know, and the last time something similar occurred was a couple of months ago.

It might be prudent to resurrect this 'tradition' and have it happen consistently.
I will speak to my fellow faction management. Obviously, there are exceptions such as with the first part of my address to your post, aka during extreme circumstances.

I also think a larger variety of punishments should be available, aside from the standard de-servicement or blackmark. As I said before, I don't know a lot of them first-hand since I'm pretty decent about flying under the radar IC, but I would like to see more of the following. Unit beatings, where a unit fucks up not terribly, but enough for the RLs to gather up some units on duty to give out some re-education to the punished unit. Monetary fines (for smaller infractions to include STC removal as well), mandatory inspections of said unit who gets under the watch of Command. To elaborate on the inspections part, if a unit continuously is getting in trouble over smaller things, it could be a way for them to fix themselves but also kind of get hounded/harassed by Rank Leaders or i1s/2s if they're attracting all of that negative attention. It's the feeling of knowing that you can't have unauthorized shit on you and to build a trail of your fuck-ups, giving the RLs a chance to build a punishment trail to escalate things into higher punishments in the future. But of course with this, you'd also have the chance to just do the right thing and be a squared away unit (or seemingly) enough for them to finally leave you alone. Just some ideas.

Punishments aren't restricted only to deservicement and blackmarks. Re-educations, deduction of sterilized credits and reckless operation charges should be common. Command units and rank leaders especially are given the liberty to be creative. J

Just in case however, the rank leaders and field command units will be informed to resort to more creative punishments that are fun for both parties, rather than simple deductions and re-educations. .

Sorry that the formatting of this is dogshit. I'm not very good at making my long yapping rants appealing to read.

 

[Rebel RP Philosopher]

Sorry that the formatting of this is dogshit. I'm not very good at making my long yapping rants appealing to read. But hopefully it gets the idea across. I'd love to see some additional ideas below.

With the help of ChatGPT which simplify your points, this is no bigger issue. Your thread has enabled a chance for discourse on reviewing the current way CP infractions are handled, while encouraging moments from the past that were fun which might re-emerge by simply reminding of them.

 

[ramen]

I say we have an in-character Civil Tribunal Union, headed by members of the CCDE, CivPro, MCP, and SeCon

CourtRP

 

[Rebel RP Philosopher]

I say we have an in-character Civil Tribunal Union, headed by members of the CCDE, CivPro, MCP, and SeCon

CourtRP

Already exists

 

[Cocohop]

I think this is a cool idea personally.
I've been on the receiving end of a deservicement about a year ago, and the poor RP and IC reasoning (to me, at least) left such a bad taste in my mouth that I opted to let go of the WL and stop playing CP altogether, even though I found it quite fun up until that point.
IMO, the chance to plead your case to a council of RLs (even if rigged against you) seems a fun last-ditch effort/hail Mary. Maybe get your deservicement reduced to canal duty or a blackmark.

 

[Orphan]

or you can just have competent people in charge

 

[Rebel RP Philosopher]

I think this is a cool idea personally.
I've been on the receiving end of a deservicement about a year ago, and the poor RP and IC reasoning (to me, at least) left such a bad taste in my mouth that I opted to let go of the WL and stop playing CP altogether, even though I found it quite fun up until that point.
IMO, the chance to plead your case to a council of RLs (even if rigged against you) seems a fun last-ditch effort/hail Mary. Maybe get your deservicement reduced to canal duty or a blackmark.

You'd think that the combine was supposed to be more resourceful when there are options such as transhumanization or stalkerization, but no a bullet to the head because it easier to roleplay

or you can just have competent people in charge

Counter argument to this is: It's just a game, the ones in charge have no obligation to actually be competent. While if we would replace them fully by cleaning the slate and implementing new leaders, would it impose risks for Atle that are far greater than holding the volunteers we currently have.

Change on Willard is barely dramatic unless you mobilize the community since things are ran democratically around here and alternatively fueled by the churning of different managements with one burnout after the other.

 

[Orphan]

It's just a game, the ones in charge have no obligation to actually be competent.

lol

 

[MazuzaM]

or you can just have competent people in charge

You don't have to be super competent to be a Rank Leader, you just gotta know the rules and act in good faith unlike recent happenings