Realism != Fun (sometimes)

[George]

This is just my hot take of autist ramblings, but I do encourage you to at least skim it.

Where Realism is good:
Realism is good where it encourages the player to act like a regular human being and cause interactions with others. An example of this is food and water, a luxury not all have, which forces the player to act desperately as if they are ACTUALLY in a survival situation, as they don’t want there character to starve to death.

Where Realism is bad:
Realism can be bad when it becomes a chore, rather than a fun experience for the player, an example being this magazine update. I personally think what made this event so fun was that (most) players had near infinite ammunition making gunfights extremely fun, and so gunfights could happen more often via gamemaster events or player driven ones. This event would not have been as fun if players had to run away due to not having the supplies to fight, as this would cause the event to be a monotonous grind where players would avoid fights to preserve ammo and use their free time in the server to grind scripts.

Forcing players to /me breathing is technically realistic, but it isn’t fun


Conclusion:
Some realism is good, but a lot can make the game feel like a chore. People play this game as a form of escapism from the real world, to be someone they aren’t, and to force them to do chores in order to do so will put them off.

That’s all, bye!

 

[Conair]

Spoiler: POV: You're in this thread

As with all things, you need to suspect disbelief; usually people have pedants or have arbitrary lines where that ends.
You should however as a show-runner factor in the implications and impact of every decision you make. Whether that decision will impact gameplay in a positive or negative way - what are those factors and why are they positive/negative. Blanket realism becomes a slog, long drawn and joyless (like real life.) Even "realism" modes in other games really tone it down - probably the most realistic game people are tolerating of late is probably Project Zomboid but that's a survival game, which doesn't need constant GM oversight due to its engine and features.

Also: Unlimited ammo is king.

 

[Vulpes Callida]

If gameplay feels like a chore it's because you're focusing on the wrong aspects of the gamemode. "Chores" I assume you mean grinding chips as rebel, SC as a civvie, or rank as CP, all three of which aren't the main point of either faction. People chase them blindly because they equate OOC progression to IC development. I can't really think of any other "chores". If the roleplay you're involved in goes stale, that's really on you (and the Creative Team under the right circumstances).

If it isn't that, I don't really know what you mean by "realism" - everything in Willard is so unrealistic atm it kinda hurts, so it's odd to me you make a thread further saying realism "no bueno". People spam bandages to heal up bulletwounds to the chest and never mention them again. Rebels stay permanently in the IZ looting the same 10 trashbags after they note down their spawnpoints and respawn timers, in circles. Civil Protection can literally have most items dispensed for free and in limitless supply. People get shot or are gravely injured and 'fade to black' because otherwise explaining how the shit you fix that would evidence the bullshit for what it is, and in 20 minutes they flag back and act as if nothing ever happened...

I think people confuse 'realism' with 'measures to make people actually roleplay' all too often. Which people really don't. 'Realism' would be more related to the atmosphere, but Willard's atmosphere couldn't be further from 'reality' - the other day we had a guy build* a god damn theme park in the plaza.

 

[George]

If gameplay feels like a chore it's because you're focusing on the wrong aspects of the gamemode. "Chores" I assume you mean grinding chips as rebel, SC as a civvie, or rank as CP, all three of which aren't the main point of either faction. People chase them blindly because they equate OOC progression to IC development. I can't really think of any other "chores". If the roleplay you're involved in goes stale, that's really on you (and the Creative Team under the right circumstances).

If it isn't that, I don't really know what you mean by "realism" - everything in Willard is so unrealistic atm it kinda hurts, so it's odd to me you make a thread further saying realism "no bueno". People spam bandages to heal up bulletwounds to the chest and never mention them again. Rebels stay permanently in the IZ looting the same 10 trashbags after they note down their spawnpoints and respawn timers, in circles. Civil Protection can literally have most items dispensed for free and in limitless supply. People get shot or are gravely injured and 'fade to black' because otherwise explaining how the shit you fix that would evidence the bullshit for what it is, and in 20 minutes they flag back and act as if nothing ever happened...

I think people confuse 'realism' with 'measures to make people actually roleplay' all too often. Which people really don't. 'Realism' would be more related to the atmosphere, but Willard's atmosphere couldn't be further from 'reality' - the other day we had a guy buy a god damn theme park in the plaza.

The point I'm making is, just because something exists in real life doesn't mean it should exist as a forced action upon the players. Grinding is dull, and while I see it's many positives I can't help thinking the game exists in a series of minigames that all characters are forced to take part in, you MUST grind social credits and work in workshifts to be considered "loyal", you MUST grind chips for ammunition for hours on end in the sewers to stand a chance in combat. For those above the systems EG high tier loyalists, the systems work great for them because they've done the grind or been appointed their positions and have no real risk of losing them as long as they "do their job". On the other hand, no rebel wants to actually do anything because loss of a character means they have to grind 30+ hours to get back to their original position so they can lose it all in a sweep. The less grinding means the more action, which arguably in my opinion provides a much stronger atmosphere.

On the main server I run a barbershop which in it's essence runs on RP as well as permit purchases. Many people come in and are given actual haircuts (in rp) and are given no actual benefit from this from an OOC perspective, and people enjoy it. The grind doesn't need to be there to force players to go and cut their hair, they choose to do it of their own free will for RP. Imagine a system where in order to cut your hair, you need to search through a warehouse for a few hours holding CTRL + E to search crates to find a razor, alone, to then find the item and right click it to cut your hair. That system is essentially rebel RP at the moment.

~I think the point I was trying to make is this: While realism is good, don't force it.

TLDR: Grind bad, roleplay good.

 

[Ruairidh]

Where Realism is bad:
Realism can be bad when it becomes a chore, rather than a fun experience for the player, an example being this magazine update. I personally think what made this event so fun was that (most) players had near infinite ammunition making gunfights extremely fun, and so gunfights could happen more often via gamemaster events or player driven ones. This event would not have been as fun if players had to run away due to not having the supplies to fight, as this would cause the event to be a monotonous grind where players would avoid fights to preserve ammo and use their free time in the server to grind scripts.

Very true, make rebel scripts easier to get ∴ rebels will do more rebel shit instead of hiding with their expensive shit (I didnt read what you said)

 

[Vulpes Callida]

Very true, make rebel scripts easier to get ∴ rebels will do more rebel shit instead of hiding with their expensive shit (I didnt read what you said)

the reason why stuff is hard to get for the rebels is because every time they get them 90% abuse it

 

[Ruairidh]

the reason why stuff is hard to get for the rebels is because every time they get them 90% abuse it

define 'abuse' idk what you mean by it really there are alot of things I would consider abuse that you might not

 

[Vulpes Callida]

rdt go boom because comb1ne kild my girls'frend

random patrol lit up bc 'yesterday my friend got captured' (for being dumb)

and, most PVP interactions

I get you people want action but baseless one falls as flat as doing nothing and my experiences with combat have always included one side P2Ling and the other using every OOC trick in the book to make sure they 'win', and it kinda put into perspective a lot of things.

 

[Ruairidh]

rdt go boom because comb1ne kild my girls'frend

random patrol lit up bc 'yesterday my friend got captured' (for being dumb)

and, most PVP interactions

I get you people want action but baseless one falls as flat as doing nothing and my experiences with combat have always included one side P2Ling and the other using every OOC trick in the book to make sure they 'win', and it kinda put into perspective a lot of things.

RDT being blown up requires rp and even so no matter how easy scripts are to grind bombs are still very easy to make the rebels just dont really know that

Random patrol being lit up wouldnt really happen just cuz a friend got capped, that would anger all the other rebels as they would bring OTA into the slum (kinda like what happened to the last rdt bomber???)

Whats wrong with PVP? You want us to /me everything? If you dont like PVP then its your loss bro.

who P2Ls like actually who wants to lose, I can understand that people would like that to happen but thats like asking a gambler to go all in on slots bro.

People want rebels to do shit and not be retarded, people want rebels to not flash off their gear, people want rebels to do shit, 2 of those problems could be solved with just making the grind less hard. You can figure out what those 2 things are if you cant just @ me and I will just say.

 

[bobby]

yeah cause of how big the grind is rebels probably negatively affect citizens more than combine , due to how long it takes to get items

 

[Rabid]

Giving rebels gear won't encourage them to do more no matter how easy it is to get back afterwards - they'll just end up hoarding and continuing to make excuses for why they aren't doing more. Trust me when I say it is not the magic solution.

Source: I've seen it across 4 different communities and twice as many iterations in 8 years of Gmod.

 

[Ruairidh]

Giving rebels gear won't encourage them to do more no matter how easy it is to get back afterwards - they'll just end up hoarding and continuing to make excuses for why they aren't doing more. Trust me when I say it is not the magic solution.

Source: I've seen it across 4 different communities and twice as many iterations in 8 years of Gmod.

Well most rebels complain about the grind and the economy, getting gear in the glue economy is not only hard it is damn near impossible, I know for sure that increasing the amount of gear that rebels can obtain would most definitely help with the problem, not to mention that people with this gear may find it easier arming recruits and recruiting in general, I know you have your experience and I would like to tell you that I too have mine. If we had this change it would only benefit the health of the server and change a lax city rp experience into a more wartorn city rp experience

 

[Vulpes Callida]

RDT being blown up requires rp and even so no matter how easy scripts are to grind bombs are still very easy to make the rebels just dont really know that

Random patrol being lit up wouldnt really happen just cuz a friend got capped, that would anger all the other rebels as they would bring OTA into the slum (kinda like what happened to the last rdt bomber???)

Whats wrong with PVP? You want us to /me everything? If you dont like PVP then its your loss bro.

who P2Ls like actually who wants to lose, I can understand that people would like that to happen but thats like asking a gambler to go all in on slots bro.

People want rebels to do shit and not be retarded, people want rebels to not flash off their gear, people want rebels to do shit, 2 of those problems could be solved with just making the grind less hard. You can figure out what those 2 things are if you cant just @ me and I will just say.

All of the examples I gave already happened (and more than once) during my playtime.

Yes, I am in favour of /meing combat, but I understand that past 4 people it gets chaotic so I don't mind TBC/S2K. What I do mind, for example, is units having restrictions on only being able to carry one set of bandages, and actually RPing being shot in TBC like y'know... the rules state (during turn not so much, but definitely after the encounter ends), and rebels having a full inventory + bag and satchel of meds they just spam behind cover as well as incendiary grenades. That's more what I meant by P2L, which is having realistic inventories and responses to combat rather than just stat jockeying this shit like it's Final Fantasy. I am told you have an OOC weapons chart with the damages of the weapons to help you choose which kills faster according to the numbers. That is how little roleplay goes into weapons.

And yes, people want all of that out of the resistance, so I'm not sure making stuff easier to obtain for people who both either already have too much of it or are gonna misuse it is the grand play here. Scripts should be infinitely more limited for everyone. CP, too. What happened to a good old knife versus stunstick fight? Why is City 24 just an average day in south/westside Baltimore? Why is having a gun essential to you having fun? Ever heard of the expression 'powercreep'? Same goes with overgearing CPs (I'm looking at a specific 'division'). The BMDs also sell more weapons than the entire EU to Ukraine. And of considerably higher caliber, too. I see one pistol for every sixteen fucking 5.56 or higher rifles on anti citizens. I have not seen a single one of you without armour unless you're in your civvies.

You are already way overgeared, and you do nothing with that - giving you more is not gonna suddenly make you go 'yeah, it's time'. All you've recently done is just 0-risk stuff that doesn't even make sense half the time, like putting grenades in generators and running then flagging (we love bombing public infrastructure). Because, as rabid implied in his post,

(...) continuing to make excuses for why they aren't doing more. (...)

the issue is that unless you have an ensured OOC epic wowzers I'm so cool success like you do with expeditions (which should be toned down massively, every group has apparently means to escape the city and return with 24x more gear nowadays) or other GM'd scenarios and events, you don't actually do anything, because 'muh characters'! 'Risks'! Well, yes, that is the whole point of the anti citizen factions. It's like a CP player OOCly dreading sewer sweeps or patrolling the slums. Bro, that's half the fun of the fucking development. If you are never gonna do anything besides existing, hiding in an underground bar and doing the same thing over and over just so your guy can be alive, consider continuing to play on the most risky faction of the gamemode.

 

[Neonity]

Very true, make rebel scripts easier to get ∴ rebels will do more rebel shit instead of hiding with their expensive shit (I didnt read what you said)

Every time we minimized grind, rebels ended up doing absolutely nothing. Literally nothing for weeks because there was nothing to gain anymore.

“Rebels will do more rebel shit” when in fact the opposite has been proven.

 

[Ruairidh]

Yes, I am in favour of /meing combat,

What happened to a good old knife versus stunstick fight?

Good wouldnt be a word I would use to describe that.

Why is having a gun essential to you having fun?

Why is having a gun in any game fun, why would someone want a gun. What I'm saying is we play RP so that we can be something else and escape from reality, why do you think a rifle toting rebel would want a rifle, key words rifle and rebel.

The BMDs also sell more weapons than the entire EU to Ukraine.

Yeah bro good luck finding one.

You are already way overgeared, and you do nothing with that - giving you more is not gonna suddenly make you go 'yeah, it's time'.

Well bro you know how people die? and they lose everything? Yeah just knowing that you can get either the same gear or a little worse gear even after you die gives you a sense of security and makes rebels a little less cringe, you are also forgetting about the glue economy and the budding rebels that have to live through it.

the issue is that unless you have an ensured OOC epic wowzers I'm so cool success like you do with expeditions (which should be toned down massively, every group has apparently means to escape the city and return with 24x more gear nowadays)

Yeah bro they have that once the like near 3 weeks pass when CT actually review your expedition.

Bro, that's half the fun of the fucking development.

Yeah bro its fun for CPs because they have people they can rely on and people that they are able to talk to, its not fun for any of the rebels that arent in the OOC loop or secret metabase.

If you are never gonna do anything besides existing, hiding in an underground bar and doing the same thing over and over just so your guy can be alive, consider continuing to play on the most risky faction of the gamemode.

you forgot the endless grind and the 'looking for other rebels praying that they might be out of their base for once and maybe you can make connections to plan something big' part.

 

[Ruairidh]

Every time we minimized grind, rebels ended up doing absolutely nothing. Literally nothing for weeks because there was nothing to gain anymore.

“Rebels will do more rebel shit” when in fact the opposite has been proven.

Then you are fucking with the wrong rebels bro, do remember that there are new players who too need to grind up to get rebel shit.

 

[Vulpes Callida]

reply

Every 'response' or 'counter argument' you have produced in this response (except the one about the CT) can be watered down to a single concept which can be easily nullified by my counter argument, which is "just roleplay better".

In none of the replies you contemplate you might be the root of the problem, instead deflect each issue right back to me as if I'm taking sides or something, or to a system that is OPTIONAL. Perhaps it's about time you started considering maybe you're not as good as you make yourself out to be. No offense of course. Neither am I.

Edit: 'you' as in 'the rebels' (the ones implied in this discussion)

 

[Ruairidh]

which is "just roleplay better"

what could be roleplayed better? Me shooting a CP? Me gathering credits? Me RPing around the sewers? What can please do tell me

 

[Vulpes Callida]

what could be roleplayed better? Me shooting a CP? Me gathering credits? Me RPing around the sewers? What can please do tell me

ok here we go

Why is having a gun in any game fun, why would someone want a gun. What I'm saying is we play RP so that we can be something else and escape from reality, why do you think a rifle toting rebel would want a rifle, key words rifle and rebel.

If you can only have fun with a gun, perhaps find other ways to have fun with your characters so all your characters don't end up with the same goal. If you're only here for the guns, maybe you're just in the wrong gamemode.

Yeah bro good luck finding one.

If BMDs are too rare for you (which they absolutely aren't)... Become one. Or, don't be so dependant on what they sell. People don't buy anything that isn't weapons anyway. And I've -lived- that so no excuses there. People would rather pay 8000 chips for an SVD than 500 for a materials kit that literally builds them any base anywhere. Or any other RP-good items like disguises or tools. Again, I have -seen- this happen.

Well bro you know how people die? and they lose everything? Yeah just knowing that you can get either the same gear or a little worse gear even after you die gives you a sense of security and makes rebels a little less cringe, you are also forgetting about the glue economy and the budding rebels that have to live through it.

If you die, you accept death and move on instead of whining about being too oppresed, or too outnumbered, or meta, or whatever the monthly excuse becomes, maybe it means you just made a mistake which almost noone seems to consider ever. Starting a story without the intent of finishing it means there is no story happening at all anyway. Dying is part of the game. If you're gonna avoid it at all costs and play this shit like it's singleplayer skyrim, again, maybe you should consider what you are doing playing in the server.

Yeah bro they have that once the like near 3 weeks pass when CT actually review your expedition.

If literally your only gist is going out on expeditions which you know you will succeed in because eventmakers rarely fuck you over, then maybe don't have your organizations' mottos be 'fighting for freedom' (or similar), instead just be a bunch of ragtag hoarders ICly, not just OOCly. It's so incoherent and inconsistent when ya hear people be like "yeah I fight opression" with their only goal being cashing in on chips and having a big sniper rifle they never use not to lose it (except if it's NPCs which cannot realistically kill you back! then ofc it's time ot be the big hero). It's like a cringe fashion show tbh. Like what, I am meant to believe you are cooler or more developed because you have better gear? The CP have been bored to death and the CT have broken their heads trying to keep us entertained because none of you had left the base(s) in the last 2 months. One half of the recipe is outright just missing.

Yeah bro its fun for CPs because they have people they can rely on and people that they are able to talk to, its not fun for any of the rebels that arent in the OOC loop or secret metabase.

I don't even know what to tell you here. It is so astronomically wrong and out of touch. You do know CPs are players, too, right? Just like anti civs? I think the difference here radicates in the fact CP has an OOC player filter and the faction is fairly more curated, so are the people in it. You mean you don't talk to people because they can't be trusted? Sounds like a you problem. And while on the topic 'secret metabases' should be prohibited. You wanna live in the IZ, then you don't get a out of jail free card. With risks come consequences.

you forgot the endless grind and the 'looking for other rebels praying that they might be out of their base for once and maybe you can make connections to plan something big' part.

Literally my first post in this thread says the endless grind is not necessary because scripts aren't necessary (surprise). As for the rest, again, it's an IC issue, biproduct of having bad characters AND bad players in your faction(s). Like, how am I supposed to tell you this? ...Get better at establishing social links? At building a character? All while being careful? Be original? Leave notes?

I know there are groups that do this for a fact so the fact you don't (and the majority don't) just means you most of you lot simply don't roleplay resistance properly. Independently of all the problems surrounding it, which might be more or less true to whichever extent.

 

[Rabid]

RebelRP with weapons is not at all inherently bad but the very natural responses of "easy guns/gear good and fun" combined with "going where the most roleplay is" means you end up with a horde of people leaving the city to go grab a weapon and thus the city suffers and RebelRp invariably starts to die too when the city is reduced to 5 people AFKing.

"Just make CityRP more fun" also doesn't work when you simply cannot compare to the rush of getting to shoot Combine with a gun and be a cool rebel. If you go into it and naively assume people will be more willing to do things just because they have more gear you just end up with situations like what @Vulpes Callida and @Neonity mention.

Nothing happens, people don't do more. They just sit about. There will always be a reason why people don't want to risk their character - usually because, at the heart of it, they don't want to risk their character but want to do all the cool stuff. That's why they wait for events or expeditions. This isn't bad on its own but combined with everything else it absolutely is.