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Reb L's

Muho

Chonk
ENG
Administrator
GALUNGA
Joined
Jul 11, 2021
Messages
190
First off did we deserve the L's? Yes we did!

I know that we shouldn't be fully geared and go afk etc. or fucking go to bars FULLY GEARED and don't jump into CP's.
Right now the way RP goes in the sewers is like this: We talk with each other --> Make plans --> Gather people --> Someone causes a sweep --> People die --> We repeat.
Are we dumb? Yes we are
STILL i think there should be way for the Rebels to know a Sweep is happening, NOT everytime but let's say it is getting announced more in form of DUTY, SWORD, SHART

As you know organizing a group of people with ADHD and Greed issues, we need time... we are like special ed kids. No one trusts each other, only oocly and they act that way.

So i thought of this. The Nachtigallen and Wardens get a more present, in form of having their own bases with some sort of Meta protection. This bases will have their leaders
let's say @Robert on one side and @Neonity on the other side. So we will shift from doing BMD quest board Discord stuff to more IC stuff. We need authority in the sewers that can make something like Rules. Let's say my char did something reckles and he and his groups reputation got lower. Lower reputation means the BMD's won't sell you stuff or for a higher chip amount. Basically a linked system to give people punishment that harm the Resistance ICly. Yes i know everyone got their ideals etc. BUT some rules will be always common or can be agreed on. Imagine announcing that you will shotcop so everyone should hide! WOW no body would be even mad since they can hide and save their char that they worked on for weeks and don't die to a Sweep caused by bored players. To be honest it could be anything but something that shows authority IC.

For now the RP feels like really hostile and there is no unification, is it our fault? YES but we special ed kids need help. SO PLEASE let's come up with a system that could help IC unification. Literally if there wasn't couple of players trying to create environments for the Resistance like the Blood pit or the soup kitchen... shit would be empty without the true Rebel soul. I want to bomb stuff too, have fun with other rebels and whatever. BUT there has to be a way to solve this IC issue

Like this to help Reb L'S and let's try to brainstorm in the comments or something. Thank you :^3

PS: I DONT SAY WE SHOULD DO IT LIKE THIS WAY... just throwing in some ideas. Let's come up with something as a community
 
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Rebels get in gear to do anything, random bluesuit snitches, combine know it's true OOCly and sweep and more rebels die, sewers is a death trap and rebels can't go anywhere besides up if inside
 
Formatting from Muho is interesting but I kind of get his point, I hope I do.
STILL i think there should be way for the Rebels to know a Sweep is happening, NOT everytime but let's say it is getting announced more in form of DUTY, SWORD, SHART
I am not sure about this, sweeps would be pointless if it got announced by Dispatch each time it was made. IC wise people usually let the rebels know if there is an on-going sweep. I would assume sweeps kept happening one after another due to repeated shotcopping events and Free Vortigaunts attacking, which to be quite honest we can't blame them, I would have done the same too.
So i thought of this. The Nachtigallen and Wardens get a more present, in form of having their own bases with some sort of Meta protection. This bases will have their leaders
For this, I think Muho is trying to say Admins/GMs should be involved with fixing the unity problem that is occuring within the Resistance, I have been quite active for a couple months, and I am sad to say rebels haven't progressed in any way shape or form, and those that progressed in their own terms got their characters PKd because of quite unfortunate avoidable mistakes. I do support Nachtigallen/Wardens IC wise coming into the city to fix the rebel issue, and to take matters into their own hands temporarily and once there is a steady growth and goals made they can return to their headquarters.
We need authority in the sewers that can make something like Rules. Let's say my char did something reckles and he and his groups reputation got lower. Lower reputation means the BMD's won't sell you stuff or for a higher chip amount.
We already have this, well at least I do have principles for my own BMD character to not typically deal with people that are known to cause problems, especially because I am aligned with Nachtigallen because shotcoppings pretty much usually ends up in sweeps, as we have seen in the past 5 days now.
For now the RP feels like really hostile and there is no unification, is it our fault? YES but we special ed kids need help. SO PLEASE let's come up with a system that could help IC unification.
I will re-iterate what I said, and yes sadly Muho is right, there aren't enough competent leaders from the Rebels to take on the reigns of their people and to unite groups. Resistance in Willard isn't like Civil Protection where you need a detailed application, and the need to be a trustworthy member of the community to be a part of the faction provided your IC powers, it just kind of flows on its own; anyone can pretty much become a leader of a cell if they talk. But in situations where the Resistance isn't getting anywhere and it is visibly suffering trusted Staff members can get involved. We can't accomplish anything as Rebels with little equipment we have and on top of that leaders of each cell constantly fight with each other and throw shit at one another, I have observed this time and time again myself.
Ultimately, I will make a seperate suggestion stating that we should have Gamemaster or Event characters to come into the city and talk about the current politics, as we have lost countless full-gear rebels and the current climate of the Underground is inevitably on a downfall. I have already relayed a message IC to my own aligned BMD faction.
 
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Rebels get in gear to do anything, random bluesuit snitches, combine know it's true OOCly and sweep and more rebels die, sewers is a death trap and rebels can't go anywhere besides up if inside
Yeah.. I thought that CP would give a grace period of one week for Rebels to set up their bases and to organize underground as we don't even know the full layout yet, but random shot-coppings from Helsing warriors led to sweeps still. Which, like I said, I can't blame the CP for. Like @Astro said in one of the appeals, they have been getting shot at since day one.
 
Combine Player and avid Homeless Maniac player here.

I think that rebels knowing of a sweep should only happen when it's under the circumstances of an event. If it's just any other sweep, it defeats the whole purpose of doing it in the first place. Sweeps are a punishment for rebels not being cautious and smart.


I think that Rebels should have some time to get organized and sink their teeth into every new map. What I think would be interesting is that the rebels could have interacted with local resistance cells of event characters and whatnot. I think it's unfair that CPs got to make local cops but rebels kind of was just pushed in with no established order of things.

As well to the sewers issue, I think we should make sewers a HEAVY GAS ZONE so bluesuit beginner scavs can't go down there and snitch. Of course, this would mean there is an equal distribution of loot on the surface and sewers (GOD FORBID!). Sewers should always be a place for those who worked to get all the rebel gear and whatnot, go down and actually mingle with other rebels.
 
Combine Player and avid Homeless Maniac player here.

I think that rebels knowing of a sweep should only happen when it's under the circumstances of an event. If it's just any other sweep, it defeats the whole purpose of doing it in the first place. Sweeps are a punishment for rebels not being cautious and smart.


I think that Rebels should have some time to get organized and sink their teeth into every new map. What I think would be interesting is that the rebels could have interacted with local resistance cells of event characters and whatnot. I think it's unfair that CPs got to make local cops but rebels kind of was just pushed in with no established order of things.

As well to the sewers issue, I think we should make sewers a HEAVY GAS ZONE so bluesuit beginner scavs can't go down there and snitch. Of course, this would mean there is an equal distribution of loot on the surface and sewers (GOD FORBID!). Sewers should always be a place for those who worked to get all the rebel gear and whatnot, go down and actually mingle with other rebels.
I agree. Only if it's possible not to gate keep people, ALSO this would improve the RP in the slums by ten fold. People would actually try to start there and not run into sewers instantly
 
> be a new bluesuit
> can't be CP, might as well be a loyalist suckup instead
> goes down to the sewers where rebels and free vorts are
> see rebels and freed vorts
> "officer, there are rebels and freed vorts in the sewers where rebels and freed vorts are!"
> cp sweep, rebels who just got gear out/logged on die
 
I've been making efforts to try and make some progress for the resistance as a whole but I find that I've been punished for events outside of my control. My goals in the resistance scene is to encourage more roleplay and change the general atmosphere by providing some organization and just be being genuinely interesting. Two of my associates were killed because of the regular shotcops which have been relentless from the resistance and the fact I myself am not dead is mostly due to dumb to luck. However people who engage in shotcopping have no issues in continuing to do it because the responses take too long and they slink away to avoid any tangible consequences for their actions.

Essentially they're throwaways with no personality, faking it so they aren't seen as complete npc characters which nobody likes. Unfortunately the Combine must react and so the people who are dying have no IC intention or any OOC intention to attack the Combine and our efforts to try and make something happen in the resistance are completely nullified because of how much of a deathtrap the sewers are from a mechanical point of view.

Fighting back is not a viable strategy since there is nowhere to go and all it takes is for one mistake from most of the resistance to have the very scarce safe-rooms be found out and everyone who wants to remain uninvolved be massacred. Admin intervention is needed but obviously people who shotcop aren't really interested in roleplaying because they have some form of delusions about doing some "Real Resisting!" instead of actually making a cohesive player-driven faction with an interesting backstory and lore.

Theoretically the resistance scene should be booming with the amount of rebels but I saw more rebels in the corridors of City 8 then I have ever seen on this map. Those characters haven't disappeared they just don't play and there probably a myriad of reasons but the most obvious one is that it's just too risky on a personal level because of this small minority in the resistance.

People might say Cope and Seethe but it's the truth. Shooting a cop and then flagging off after you stared at your clock doesn't make you a rebel. It just makes you a nuisance and it should be outright banned. Attacking the Combine needs a motive, a genuine plan or goal that justifies shouldering the risk not only for yourself but the entire resistance. Grass has made it clear that "causing a sweep" is not a valid reason for a PK for the resistance to put a stop it themselves but in the same vein that's the core issue at hand here.

I'm not suggesting sweeps stop in the slightest, they are necessary because that's how the Combine exert their influence and punish the resistance. However the problem is they are not punishing the right people and so the resistance can't change because the only people still standing are the shotcoppers while all the passive characters who want to add flavour are dead on the floor because they picked the wrong time to play the game I guess?

Rebels require checks to ensure that they can commit crime so why can the Combine sweep when the person or resistance cell who was responsible for the whole disaster isn't even online? It's not like this information can't be found but people are just extending themselves to the limits of the rules because they know they can get away with it. Which goes against the whole spirit of even having the rules in the first place. It's not the fault of CPs or OTA they take time to respond because that's just how it is when organizing anything but equally it's not right for the people choking Rebel RP to get a free meal ticket to keep perpetuating the problem.

They have no plan, no goal or ideology. Shooting the Combine because they're bad or you want a gun or some other basic is not valid. We should instead encourage the resistance to form up and plan big operations among themselves which actually have a reason behind them. My suggestion to convert Shell Beach into a resistance zone plays into this since it's my hope by providing a big target for the resistance to hit within reach will stop trivial and ultimately pointless attacks.

But I'm not going to complain without at least providing a solution that should keep the spirit of things intact while still allowing people who don't want to get involved actually have a way to make the necessary IC changes in order to move away from this pointless cycle. However to do that we need to address / implement the following points which I'll give my own solutions.

1. People who attack the Combine must have a genuine goal beyond just senseless violence.

The Combine, the all-powerful and monolithic interdimensional empire is meant to be a extremely dangerous entity and shooting their grunts in broad daylight without any purpose other than making a """dent""" in their power is a breach of fear RP. When Rebel RP is left at the mercy of:

/me presses his pistol to the CP's head, doming him with a squeeze of the trigger.

What real hope is there to actually change the resistance into something more healthy? Player agency is important but you're putting the future of arguably the most popular faction at the mercy of anyone and everyone.

My solution? I propose actions that would cause a sweep and/or large scale insurgent activity must be a group action with other players and said action must fulfil a need of that group. Shotcopping as a thing will essentially become a term for situations where a individual player got themselves into a situation where they had no choice to engage for the sake of their own survival but was otherwise unplanned.

These group actions on paper sound like they might reduce player agency but on the contrary it will force people to actually talk and cooperate in order to actually be able to execute their plans however these goals will change depending on the state of the group which will be reviewed by GMs who will decide if it's a realistic decision for the group when compared to the state it is in. Here's an example of two groups at different stages wanting to perform the same action

Group 1: Low-level rebels armed with melee weapons and pipe weapons.

Group 2: Highly geared rebels with high-tier equipment, armour and resources.

The Action: Wanting to mug a cop for their weapons and equipment.

Group 1 will be allowed to go ahead with the action because they need the equipment out of necessity in order to stand a better chance in other areas of rebel RP.

Group 2 however, will NOT be allowed to do so because they have no need for the relatively "low-tier" equipment of CPs. However, if for some reason Group 2 formulates a plan which REQUIRES they need to obtain certain items from a CP then they will be allowed to do so.

The main theme here is that group 1 actually needs the equipment to grow stronger while group 2 doesn't because it would be motivated by greed or taking a stab at the combine for glory.

That being said, progressing along as a resistance faction with your group will mean that more doors gradually open to you in terms of expeditions or other external events. However that's not to say rebels who go for the more discrete route are barred from making big moves. What is the most important facet to this new theoretical system is a Plan.

Any group can perform any insurgent activity if they provide a plan and explain thoroughly to GMs what the overall goal is of the plan, why they're doing it and how they plan to accomplish it with the means they have available to them. GMs and admins can then use this information to formulate some tangible consequences for the success of the plan to make resistance activity big news among the citizenry and a blight on the Combine. Though doing this the general atmosphere of the server will be ever-changing with the Combine aligned factions taking their own steps to protect themselves and also add a bit of spice to the resistance who now have to work around the new implementations.

I think in this sort of system, the requirement to formulate a goal and overall strategy will force players to actually discuss in-character about the plan and see about trying to recruit other members of the resistance who maybe are not in their immediate sphere of influence as hired help or as joint operation. This will result in a uptick of activity and allow people who perhaps disagree with their plan to intervene ahead of time and prevent anything bad happening to their own people. The discussion of the plan will also give the opportunity to have the different Cells of the resistance to try and nosey their way into the goings-on so they can be ready or otherwise expecting a retaliation, which leads to the second part of my proposal.

2. Sweeps should target the perpetrators of the attacks and not the resistance as a whole

I know most of the staff will say that being a rebel is a risk and yes, I agree completely but there are scales of indulgence when it comes to taking those risks. People who are trying to roleplay passively and add some genuine life to the resistance as the flip-side to the Combine's rule shouldn't be fully exempt but instead should actually have a way to remove themselves from the activities of other players who currently get them killed. It's a tricky problem to manage and try and cater to all aspects of the resistance but it's something that needs to be addressed.

If my first proposal is implemented, Staff will have access to a list of all the characters / players who were involved in the event that will warrant a sweep. There's no ambiguity because these people would have willingly chosen to put themselves on the line by being a part of the plan. I also propose retaliatory sweeps will no longer be the chosen method to strike back at the resistance. Instead, using the list provided by the rebels who were a part of the plan, those within the CP faction who want revenge can ask a GM if those players are online and if they can organize a sweep to hunt them down.

If no one is online, they won't sweep but these rebel characters will be specially marked until they survive a sweep that was launched to hunt them specifically and completed to it's conclusion upon which their mark will be removed and they can no longer be used as the reason for the sweep. They also should be informed of this when it happens to they can feel comfortable playing their character again.

Since the nature of resistance players coming together and flagging on at the same time necessitates the plan, it's not realistic for CPs to wait until every single member who is marked and part of one single event is online. However there is a slight work around that I think would appease the majority of players and I'll explain it through a example of how this new system could be used:

A Cell of Three rebels commit a "Resistance Action" and are now tagged as valid targets for a sweep. They are:

- Jill
- Mike
- Steve


Another Cell of five commits another unrelated "Resistance Action" and are now also tagged and they are:

- John
- Gary
- Beth
- Kyle

- Sam

These actions occur on different days and now we are left with a total of 8 characters who are "marked" as potential sweep targets

Circumstance or other events mean some of them don't flag on and Cps Choose a mix of the two groups as potential sweep targets, keep in mind they only get the one chance to PK their target before they are unmarked, The players who are online are:

- Mike
- John

- Gary
- Sam

CPs sweep and whatever the outcome is, whether it be a successful raid or whether they escape these people are now cleared (assuming they lived) and can't be targeted again until their next "Resistance Action"

These remaining players are still marked and in the pool of targets but they will be sought after another day.

- Steve
- Kyle
- Jill

- Beth


Another Resistance Group of three unrelated to the first two commits a "Resistance Action" and enters the pool, they are:

- Harry
- Callum
- Joe

So now the total pool of sweep targets now looks like this:

- Steve
- Kyle
- Jill

- Beth
- Harry

- Callum
- Joe

As you can see, these three groups who committed their own separate "Resistance Actions" are share the same pool to be targeted and what do they all have in common?

They all took overt action against the Combine, indisputably. If they are PK'd now they knew they took that chance by participating in the resistance's efforts.

During these spontaneous sweeps, characters who are unrelated will be killed with NLR and no refunds to add some penalty to those who just want to passive and provide atmosphere. The entire resistance will still take hits from the Combine making a move but at least their characters won't be lost because of someone else's choice. Ideally this will encourage people to play more since the stakes for just playing the game won't be so ridiculously high but add an edge to the atmosphere of the resistance that needs to keep them on alert and working as a team. A great source of tension and character conflict for people not directly involved.

These unrelated characters can still be PK'd via other means and potentially even during the sweep if they hold a instrumental role in aiding the "marked" targets and somehow died but these can be managed through PK appeals as is done already. Though granted it's fair to say that it's in the interest of these passive characters to ask around and LEARN who might actually get them killed if they help them instead of saving their own skin.

Now under this idea I forsee a situation where if a large pool of rebels get "marked" and CPs raid with the intention to take them out there's a potential for a rebel genocide. Death is important to shake up the status-quo but groups should be able to survive through the damage. So maybe some sort of upper limit as to how many people can be targeted per sweep.

Of course when Rebels are "unmarked" they should be told directly by the GM / Staff member who authorized the sweep so they don't get stuck in this perpetual cycle of being too afraid to play because a sweep might come for them even though they're safe.

If a this idea is implemented what's going to happen is that there isn't going to be many sweeps for a good while as the resistance adapts to this new system and plans their "Resistance Actions" but once things get rolling a strong underlying tension will be created that should hopefully keep the resistance on the same team (most of the time anyway)


Vortigaunts are their own issue but they have their own protections already in place to protect them from outright death if they go down during a sweep but given that sweeps will no longer be an outright guarantee immediately after an attack, people should feel more comfortable playing for longer periods of time and we should see an up-tick in activity.

This idea is extremely rough but I think it's core concepts are a great step in the right direction to help the resistance really shine as a faction and help server management plan something more juicy instead of dealing with aftermaths of another shotcop.

Please, PLEASE ask questions about this idea because that's the only way we're ever going to come to any sort of conclusion and plug the gaps this new system would cause.
 
As well to the sewers issue, I think we should make sewers a HEAVY GAS ZONE so bluesuit beginner scavs can't go down there and snitch. Of course, this would mean there is an equal distribution of loot on the surface and sewers (GOD FORBID!). Sewers should always be a place for those who worked to get all the rebel gear and whatnot, go down and actually mingle with other rebels.
I got snitched on because some loyalists were on a rooftop spying down on the slums and they did a simple /request and the CP's instantly came
 
Let's say my char did something reckles and he and his groups reputation got lower. Lower reputation means the BMD's won't sell you stuff or for a higher chip amount. Basically a linked system to give people punishment that harm the Resistance ICly
I mean this kind of already exists in the background and if you do seriously fuck up as a group, you'll be able to tell because BMDs will all tell you to fuck off, maybe even turn outright hostile. It's something we do keep track of and we do know what groups are up to and which deserve to be rewarded additionally or not.

Same as when you're doing actual good, you will absolutely get the recognition you deserve. It's just that no rebels are actually doing anything humanitarian to the point of it being actually noteworthy. At least not yet, that is.

And no, a black market that resells guns to people all day is not humanitarian. It's a business.
 
I mean this kind of already exists in the background and if you do seriously fuck up as a group, you'll be able to tell because BMDs will all tell you to fuck off, maybe even turn outright hostile. It's something we do keep track of and we do know what groups are up to and which deserve to be rewarded additionally or not.

Same as when you're doing actual good, you will absolutely get the recognition you deserve. It's just that no rebels are actually doing anything humanitarian to the point of it being actually noteworthy. At least not yet, that is.

And no, a black market that resells guns to people all day is not humanitarian. It's a business.
Thats the problem... for example we wanted to do a feast in the soup Kitchen. Got everything planned and got ingredience and were waiting to decide on a day. ---> group members died and we are at 0 now again.

I think we should take the idea of Chris and model it somehow. Action against the combine should have a good reason. We have to reduce the damage that is getting caused by it... recently i hop onto my rebel with fear of getting killed because i missed some sort of attack and a sweep could happen. You can imagine how that effects the RP overall.

It will be exhausting implementing new systems etc. But we should at least try :^)
 
I don't think it actually contributes to overall RP on the server when rebels are hiding away in the sewers and outlands. It just results in people finding every reason they can to not actually be of any benefit to Citizen RP. The best rebels would be the ones who can actually blend in to the populace and work through them, rather than outside of them. Instead of being the dude who arms up and launches an attack, be the one who provides supplies to citizens. The ultimate goal of a rebel is to build a resistance, right? They aren't going to be able to do that by themselves, hence why they get stomped over and over by the Combine if they themselves decide to pop off.

Instead, rebels should be focused more on providing an alternative to the Combine. Provide food and water. Give disgruntled citizens the means to do their own shit. Expose the Combine for what they are rather than giving them fuel to portray rebels as just violent, mass-murdering monsters, which citizens will undoubtedly get behind since all they see of rebels right now is just dudes who kill people. So with that in mind, staff should be thinking of ways to support rebel groups that are willing to actually go on the streets, blend in, and improve Citizen RP by providing the path for others to take should they choose to resist the Combine, rather than rebels forming their own group so they can, essentially, hog the uprising to themself (and proceed to wonder why they get stomped every time).
 
I don't think it actually contributes to overall RP on the server when rebels are hiding away in the sewers and outlands. It just results in people finding every reason they can to not actually be of any benefit to Citizen RP. The best rebels would be the ones who can actually blend in to the populace and work through them, rather than outside of them. Instead of being the dude who arms up and launches an attack, be the one who provides supplies to citizens. The ultimate goal of a rebel is to build a resistance, right? They aren't going to be able to do that by themselves, hence why they get stomped over and over by the Combine if they themselves decide to pop off.

Instead, rebels should be focused more on providing an alternative to the Combine. Provide food and water. Give disgruntled citizens the means to do their own shit. Expose the Combine for what they are rather than giving them fuel to portray rebels as just violent, mass-murdering monsters, which citizens will undoubtedly get behind since all they see of rebels right now is just dudes who kill people. So with that in mind, staff should be thinking of ways to support rebel groups that are willing to actually go on the streets, blend in, and improve Citizen RP by providing the path for others to take should they choose to resist the Combine, rather than rebels forming their own group so they can, essentially, hog the uprising to themself (and proceed to wonder why they get stomped every time).
stfu
 
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