Remove or Reform O.S.I

[Merlinsclaw]

Honestly at this point I'd go as far as to say that the existance of a faction like this shouldn't be known if it wants to be fully effective lol

Part of the appeal is paranoia and corruption to be frank.

Many intelligence agencies like the Stasi, NKVD/KGB, CIA, etc were all well known and operated extremely effectively. I don't think anyone is outright saying that an intelligence service doesn't belong, I just think it needs to be done better.

The fact that it's 'only below Summit 24' and is basically this Godly agency that could essentially take out anyone at anytime is goofy as hell and doesn't make much sense lorewise. So what would be better?

An O.S.I that, while it's publicly known, is that 'ever present threat.' They'll lockpick into your apartment, move your props around slightly, and then exit. You never know if you can speak freely in a bar or to friends because they could be an informant in the party. While they are 'under' the C.A and support the Union, they have their own political loyalties. It could be the downfall of a C.A or someone's political ambitions if they don't woo the right people to their cause. It's like the Stasi. You need their support in a certain way. They aren't some untouchable Summit 24 organization. The common citizen knows they exist and that's why it's scary. Anyone could be working for 'Big Brother.'

 

[Raptorian]

I am curious. Do rebel groups have any defense against the OSI? I've personally been uncomfortable with the idea as I didn't think the ability to figure out rather or not someone is an agent translated well to this medium, but obviously I know nothing about them.

 

[Ronald]

Don't be so heavy into Rebel RP. Again, I don't know how bad it is, since the information was never fully divulged, but rebels have it rough enough without Combine agents who are literally impossible to track.

I'll think about something while I'm away and discuss it with my co-leads. I have a few ideas but I also fully understand the other side of it which is this:

Wouldn't this put all their efforts in avoiding metagame and remaining secretive in jeopardy? I understand the thought process but due to the nature of the faction this just doesn't seem possible without making heavy compromises, which, in my eyes at least, could end up rendering the faction obselete.

It also doesnt really much add to the citizenry in my own perspective.

I agree. The value of the OSI isn't mutually equal to everyone on the server. You can view that as a problem, it could also be considered a natural thing that will happen. Not all players and groups have mutual value to every other group in the server. I've tried to encourage a culture of RP within the OSI where our members maintain a high standard, that of which, if they are roleplaying with someone, they create a great experience, regardless of whether people are aware of their allegiances or not.

The specifics are up in the air. But, 70% of the problems this faction has are a direct or indirect result of the fact that basically no one knows what it is doing outside of the very basic general idea. Without people being able to converse about the faction, and generally comment on it, while being able to hear of what it does, it may as well not even exist. Nobody but the OSI benefits from the OSI existing as far as I can tell. This is mostly due to the fact that no one outside the OSI even knows about it.

We share information with various factions as needed. We do not share it as soon as we receive it. A bit like a police force, we like to build "evidence" before we take action otherwise there is no roleplay. When an operations officer creates an operation, usually it's with a goal in mind. That goal is set before anything is done, when that goal is achieved information is usually shared unless of course there was a need to share it sooner.

The fact that it's 'only below Summit 24' and is basically this Godly agency that could essentially take out anyone at anytime is goofy as hell and doesn't make much sense lorewise. So what would be better?

I've clarified this point in my large post earlier. It's not correct.

An O.S.I that, while it's publicly known, is that 'ever present threat.' They'll lockpick into your apartment, move your props around slightly, and then exit. You never know if you can speak freely in a bar or to friends because they could be an informant in the party. While they are 'under' the C.A and support the Union, they have their own political loyalties. It could be the downfall of a C.A or someone's political ambitions if they don't woo the right people to their cause. It's like the Stasi. You need their support in a certain way. They aren't some untouchable Summit 24 organization. The common citizen knows they exist and that's why it's scary. Anyone could be working for 'Big Brother.'

This is what I thought we were achieving. I believe a lot that conflicted with this is the lack of awareness of how we operate (Which while it can add to the fear factor, can also be presumed for no activity) and equally a confusion about the lore and how we are structured. Hopefully, the earlier post can clear this up. Happy to reclarify.

I am curious. Do rebel groups have any defense against the OSI? I've personally been uncomfortable with the idea as I didn't think the ability to figure out rather or not someone is an agent translated well to this medium, but obviously I know nothing about them.

There isn't an outright force or mechanic counter that I'm aware of. I would say though that rebel groups could operate a little smarter. We've had it before where known rebels have requested a meeting with the CA and OSI to "report something" and they need to know the names of who to talk to. Groups need to be a little more cautious with who they let in and go through a lot more trust-building exercises.



I'm sorry if I'm coming across as defensive or not willing to take on feedback. I've made a document outlining the main concerns which I think aren't easy to solve but aren't impossible. When an outcome is worked out, I don't think everyone will be happy. However, I do think the situation would be in a better place than it was.

 

[Merlinsclaw]

I'll think about something while I'm away and discuss it with my co-leads. I have a few ideas but I also fully understand the other side of it which is this:



I agree. The value of the OSI isn't mutually equal to everyone on the server. You can view that as a problem, it could also be considered a natural thing that will happen. Not all players and groups have mutual value to every other group in the server. I've tried to encourage a culture of RP within the OSI where our members maintain a high standard, that of which, if they are roleplaying with someone, they create a great experience, regardless of whether people are aware of their allegiances or not.


We share information with various factions as needed. We do not share it as soon as we receive it. A bit like a police force, we like to build "evidence" before we take action otherwise there is no roleplay. When an operations officer creates an operation, usually it's with a goal in mind. That goal is set before anything is done, when that goal is achieved information is usually shared unless of course there was a need to share it sooner.


I've clarified this point in my large post earlier. It's not correct.


This is what I thought we were achieving. I believe a lot that conflicted with this is the lack of awareness of how we operate (Which while it can add to the fear factor, can also be presumed for no activity) and equally a confusion about the lore and how we are structured. Hopefully, the earlier post can clear this up. Happy to reclarify.


There isn't an outright force or mechanic counter that I'm aware of. I would say though that rebel groups could operate a little smarter. We've had it before where known rebels have requested a meeting with the CA and OSI to "report something" and they need to know the names of who to talk to. Groups need to be a little more cautious with who they let in and go through a lot more trust-building exercises.



I'm sorry if I'm coming across as defensive or not willing to take on feedback. I've made a document outlining the main concerns which I think aren't easy to solve but aren't impossible. When an outcome is worked out, I don't think everyone will be happy. However, I do think the situation would be in a better place than it was.

Ultimately, through what you've said, I still don't believe that you guys are achieving what I believe most people would like to see coming out of O.S.I. As it stands currently it only seems O.S.I adds an intelligence service for the small group of ~11 players of OSI and whoever they've managed to recruit, which I imagine isn't to many people.

Either way, despite you saying that you weren't "above the CCA, OTA, or Overseers." I still don't see where they are falling on the totem pole. Truth be told, from my experiences with OSI it has most definitely seemed that they were above Overseers and the CCA. Could you clarify exactly where they fall?

 

[Ronald]

whoever they've managed to recruit, which I imagine isn't to many people.

I think you'd be surprised.

Truth be told, from my experiences with OSI it has most definitely seemed that they were above Overseers and the CCA

If you could DM me the case please so I can look into this. As far as I'm aware it's always been a mutual relationship.

Could you clarify exactly where they fall?

Sure.

Sector-wide
OSI Central Office

CA of given City
OSI Local Office

The OSI is loyal to the union. If the CA made a request that was against the Union in some shape or form such as against another city. The OSI would not comply and would wait till the next highest authority up gives a refined order. If Summit 24 came and gave an order, of course, the OSI would listen. I can draw a diagram if it would make it easier?

 

[Merlinsclaw]

I think you'd be surprised.


If you could DM me the case please so I can look into this. As far as I'm aware it's always been a mutual relationship.


Sure.

Sector-wide
OSI Central Office

CA of given City
OSI Local Office

The OSI is loyal to the union. If the CA made a request that was against the Union in some shape or form such as against another city. The OSI would not comply and would wait till the next highest authority up gives a refined order. If Summit 24 came and gave an order, of course, the OSI would listen. I can draw a diagram if it would make it easier?

'OSI Central Office' is a bit vague, don't you think? Is there a Central Office member giving orders around in each City? I'm sure you understand where confusion can arise regarding where the Local Office begins and this Central Office begins.

 

[Raptorian]

There isn't an outright force or mechanic counter that I'm aware of. I would say though that rebel groups could operate a little smarter. We've had it before where known rebels have requested a meeting with the CA and OSI to "report something" and they need to know the names of who to talk to. Groups need to be a little more cautious with who they let in and go through a lot more trust-building exercises.

This is what I'm curious about though. Is there anything stopping an OSI agent from being completely indistinguishable from anybody else? Do these trust-building exercises have any effect, or do OSI agents simply go through with them?

 

[Ronald]

'OSI Central Office' is a bit vague, don't you think? Is there a Central Office member giving orders around in each City? I'm sure you understand where confusion can arise regarding where the Local Office begins and this Central Office begins.

It’s a lore explanation. There is no one that represents this that has a character. Unless it’s specifically for an pre-planned event.

This is what I'm curious about though. Is there anything stopping an OSI agent from being completely indistinguishable from anybody else? Do these trust-building exercises have any effect, or do OSI agents simply go through with them?

No. An OSI agent could go through with that. They won’t necessarily be able to do everything, but there’s no silver bullet. It’s worth being creative and thinking about this ICly. There shouldn’t be a silver bullet for this either, it should be down to the individual players and their RP.

I won’t be able to respond for quite some time now. I’ll try to review when I’m back.

 

[Thood74]

The value of the OSI isn't mutually equal to everyone on the server.

No, it's not mutually equal for CITIZENS. CITIZENS pretty much have minimal interaction with OSI. While this is an intentional thing for an intelligence agency, it isn't good OOCLY. As mentioned before, the people who are being watched by OSI will be acted against through other forces. OSI Agents will always be blending in. There is, in fact, nothing stopping them from idling around and waiting for someone to say something actionable, recording it, having them arrested and fufilling the dystopic dream of observation. (edit: I may have implied this to be a more wider variety of arrestable things than I intended. I don't think that's the case.)

OSI are so far above every citizen they won't ever have to deal with them directly. Their interactions sound like they are limited to informants, Civil Protection and Core Civil Administration. It's not a good thing where a faction has no interaction with the vast majority of the server, and the part that is effectively it's lifeblood.

OSI ICly is a group of people with inflexible beliefs who quietly gather info on people, release that information to relevant authorities, and literally act ABOVE the CA or Overseers whenever it is needed. While your interpretation of the totem puts them below the CA, The fact this in lore 'Central Office' entity can give them the force to crack down on corruption is unbelievably overbearing, and effectively makes them the hand of god. Shutting down any CCA RP that isn't them doing their jobs or the most minute actions that can be considered 'corrupt'. The fact they can trace EVERY credit transaction as well is just a bit silly for corruption in civilian circles.

(Also, while OSI may be advised to not crack down on minor levels of CA corruption, doesn't matter since at some level they're going to have a full guard escort that are even more inflexibly loyal. And more aggressive.)

As for their internal roleplay, I hope it's good for the few members OSI has. Though it isn't very involved with the rest of the server all the time.

Maybe I've gotten something wrong idk I'm writing this late at night forgive any misconceptions and correct them ok bye

 

[MAXYOURFRIEND]

This is what I thought we were achieving. I believe a lot that conflicted with this is the lack of awareness of how we operate (Which while it can add to the fear factor, can also be presumed for no activity) and equally a confusion about the lore and how we are structured. Hopefully, the earlier post can clear this up. Happy to reclarify.

I'm just gonna throw my two cents into here, while my own opinion about how the overall operation of the organization doesn't 100% line up with how it's being OOCly represented here, I feel that the many responses by other more common players here show something that I believe may help alleviate the issues of the OSI being meant to be a boogeyman. I am going to focus on only one aspect, as others have more complicated issues that I feel might need input more from staff and those with greater information on the inner workings of the faction.

I feel that if you want this to be a more scary or recognized organization, that you need to have a public face, an announcement suggesting that anyone around could be an informant (as some have suggested), or something such as that. Use the BoE to the advantage of the OSI and have posters or something made and perhaps play into the somewhat meme'd 1984 idea by having the OSI appear as a "Big Brother" or party figure through the use of propaganda.

Another way to help do this would also be to publicize the successes of the OSI, it doesn't even need to be events that have actually happened. Just give players the feeling that the OSI has a presence because currently the only reason even I am aware of this organization is because of the announcements of its revival months ago now, and especially ICly there seem to be very few who feel threatened by OSI.

TLDR; A lot of people seem to have the criticism that the OSI is too secretive, so using the resources that are there such as the BoE would be good to help create a better atmosphere around the faction.

 

[Chico]

sorry but I'm just against turning OSI into a copy of the proselyte faction from nebulous.

also removing OSI is above my paycheck

 

[dno]

OSI discord should be public to be fair. I know a while back when I had a shop owner character with Trap we almost got perma banned for having a store discord but then OSI had a whole discord out from public reach, weird.

 

[Triviality]

I agree. The value of the OSI isn't mutually equal to everyone on the server. You can view that as a problem, it could also be considered a natural thing that will happen. Not all players and groups have mutual value to every other group in the server. I've tried to encourage a culture of RP within the OSI where our members maintain a high standard, that of which, if they are roleplaying with someone, they create a great experience, regardless of whether people are aware of their allegiances or not.

That's just not true, the first part that is.

All the core factions on Half Life 2 RP are all doing stuff that affects a majority of the player base. Generally, they are basically activity generators that let everyone build different relationships and have different experiences, I think a faction is measured to the amount of affect they have on the city activity wise and otherwise

The CMU comes under scrutiny because MedRP involves little more than waiting for people to get beaten to do /me gives bandage, despite the resources to HAVE events for the citizenry, ala Blood Drives, Physicals, Shots (Looking forward to changes with drug act)

Civil Protection constantly has relations to the entire server

CWU constantly has workcycles, and amends the map and city on behalf of the union

Political factions i've seen do stuff, when I was a citizen I read the newspaper, the shows on the TV, they all have an affect when I log into the server, the people who play these factions try to be noticable to the average civvie

Yet once again I say that this thread is the first time I've even come into knowledge of some OSI faction, I still haven't gotten a reply as to what they are or what they do, and the fact they are THIS secretive feels like a niche clique because all the power vacuums we're already filled.

 

[Rabid]

Yet once again I say that this thread is the first time I've even come into knowledge of some OSI faction, I still haven't gotten a reply as to what they are or what they do, and the fact they are THIS secretive feels like a niche clique because all the power vacuums we're already filled.

OSI are the guys who keep an eye on factions like the CA and such who are otherwise "out of reach" of traditional means of wrangling, and also handle spies and such. That last bit especially is the reason for the complete OOC secrecy; it was mentioned earlier when they did a test run that meta amongst the Combine and Resistance made it impossible to keep open about.

That being said, spies are an incredibly difficult thing to get right and often incredibly unrewarding to be on the other end of, especially because TextRP nullifies much of the risk of being caught out. It isn't difficult to RP James Bond when your character can just never slip up or hint at anything and the average player only invariably gets dragged in at the end of the investigation they often had no way to counter.

 

[Raptorian]

That being said, spies are an incredibly difficult thing to get right and often incredibly unrewarding to be on the other end of, especially because TextRP nullifies much of the risk of being caught out. It isn't difficult to RP James Bond when your character can just never slip up or hint at anything and the average player only invariably gets dragged in at the end of the investigation they often had no way to counter.

This is exactly why I'm uncomfortable with the idea of a spy faction. It just doesn't translate great to the medium.

 

[MrMindBlow]

The OSI being unknown and assumed to be useless is precisely why we should not touch it. It is working as intended.

If it ain't broken, don't fix it.

 

[Dostoevsky]

Disclaimer: My opinions do NOT reflect that of the OSI leadership, I am not involved in the faction in any capacity and haven't been for the quarter of a year since I left Gmod, this is purely my own personal input.

An O.S.I that, while it's publicly known, is that 'ever present threat.' They'll lockpick into your apartment, move your props around slightly, and then exit. You never know if you can speak freely in a bar or to friends because they could be an informant in the party. While they are 'under' the C.A and support the Union, they have their own political loyalties. It could be the downfall of a C.A or someone's political ambitions if they don't woo the right people to their cause. It's like the Stasi. You need their support in a certain way. They aren't some untouchable Summit 24 organization. The common citizen knows they exist and that's why it's scary. Anyone could be working for 'Big Brother.'

Which is inherently the OSI-- except for the "we know where you live and we're openly following you" bit: because its been done on every single RP community by some 15 year old who watched "Man in the High Castle" since the inception of Clockwork.

With the OSI I wanted to do something different.

The OSI has done everything you've mentioned in this example and more. This is a fact. The difference is we do not "move props" because that's ICly sloppy work. With the OSI I sought to create an actually secretive institution that could keep its presence hidden. We've interacted with every faction, and created numerous roleplay situations- but we've done this by proxy. For every core member of the OSI, there are twice as many (as of when I was last involved in November) "assets" which have been recruited by the organisation. These assets are the human tools by which the OSI operates, sometimes these assets themselves don't even understand who they are working for or why. The beauty of the OSI is that it's the scalpel-- not the hammer.

We have influenced entire facets of roleplay-- however, it is our intent that few players actually realise how much of this influence is being facilitated by the OSI.

This again goes to the idea of secrecy.

I won't debate whether or not the OSI should be any more or less secret in the current environment, because honestly I don't play anymore and don't really care. What I will do however is outline why it is so secretive:

If the playername of a single agent is revealed, for instance, word will quickly spread within the resistance playerbase and the OSI will be unable to field him. That is because we cannot guarantee that the resistance will act in the same way as if they have never gained this information. Because secrecy and the element of surprise is so crucial to this faction and its basic function, we cannot afford to lose either. Again, this fixation on preventing metagame doesn't come from thin air-- it comes directly from testing the playerbase in a set of controlled experiments. The results were bad. Even the OTA (a faction I would normally look towards for exemplar conduct) metagamed the information.

 

[Maroon]

Originally, back when I ran it (before I gave it up to Atle again) the only thing the OSI (Or BOI - Bureau of Information) was to do was to keep tabs on all Union-affiliated factions to ensure that there were no infiltrators in their midst. Various BOI agents would embed themselves into factions and keep tabs on things, occasionally relaying information up the grapevine until it reached the handlers, and then get paid a generous sum of money. These agents would be nothing more than regular citizens picked from the streets and vetted. There were also 0 OOC restrictions for them: if they wanted to turn double agent, that was 100% fine. Encouraged, even, so the rebels could also get a foothold in Combine Intelligence.

There was also the 'other' side of the BOI. Bureaucrats that would openly masquerade as 'human resources' with the sole intention of providing tension for Union factions and citizens. Oh, you have a business? Expect Pencilpusher John to pay a visit, trace his finger over the counter, complain about the furniture, remind you to pay your taxes, have your permits in order. Oh you're a Civil Worker and you've been complaining about your bosses? Expect notary Jane to come over, relay her sympathies, smile wickedly as you as she laments that you should probably tone it down a little if only for the sake of your dear wife and/or children in the other district. Accidents happen, after all.

The OSI has since dramatically expanded in scope. Keeping tabs on rebel groups, checking the CCA, aiding in investigations with cops, etc. If there's one thing I can guarantee everyone, it's that they've not been sitting on their hands. I'm very impressed that the faction as a whole has been kept as secretive as it has.

With that said, I have to wonder if the OSI isn't too effective. Transparency has always been an issue -- only its members and CM's have a 100% clear picture of what the faction is doing exactly -- but I can understand the need for that. It's a group most susceptible to things being ruined because of metagame, so taking such extreme precautions isn't unreasonable.

I kinda lost my train of thought, so let me wrap this up.

I think it may be beneficial in the long run for the OSI to not only focus on pure information, but also as the Stasi-esque organization Merlin mentioned. Subtly instill obedience and terror in business owners and collaborators alike. Remind them that - even if they evade the eye of Civil Protection - there is always another layer keeping tabs on them.

 

[ShadoWiz4rd]

3. Allow O.S.I to guard the C.C.A

I think if we were to re-organize the OSI Into something Similar to Union Proselytes which would Guard CCA In place of paramilitaries, And still conduct intelligence shit that could be the best way to reform imo, RN we just don't see them, So why not have them act like the FBI HRT or CIA Contractors? And y'know actually appear on server and do stuff.

 

[ShadoWiz4rd]

OSI Central Office

OHHHHHH, I FUCKING KNEW THATS WHAT CENTRAL OFFICE MEANT!!!