Discussion Solving the Rebel Economy Issues

[M!NT]

Greetings. Over the last few months I've heard a lot of complaints about the current 'system' which rebel characters use to gather scripts. The so called 'rebel' economy, if it were. Many people, including myself, consider said system to be half baked, boring, and incredibly time consuming. I think we can all agree that something needs to change.

The purpose of this thread is to figure out what.



This is a very controversial topic so, to keep this discussion productive, I want to make sure that we stay focused. I will be deleting any replies which fall into these two general categories:

1. "Current rebel economy sucks" but, offers no possible solutions
2. Shitposting
3. "You should go RP instead" type responses.

Instead, please highlight which issues you think highlight the core of the issue, and possible solutions we can employ to fix them. These solutions may be minor balancing related things, or total reworks. Don't think something is too large to suggest. These solutions may require development changes which is totally fine. However, please try to keep it reasonable. I don't need people to ask that we just code rust, runescape, etc in garrysmod for rebels.

Now that the formalities are out of the way, I will present some ideas that I have:


1) What are we rewarding players for?
This is the crux of the issue, in my opinion. At the moment, the most rewarding thing to do on willard is grind trash, and shoot cops as if they were loot pinatas. There is really no incentive to do anything else. Well, there are, but they aren't nearly as potent and immediate of a reward as trash spawners.

I think that the existence of trash spawners in general is very silly, and inhibits us from being able to meaningfully impact rebel roleplay when it incentives players to avoid it and collect trash instead. Not only that, but it also leads to people cluttering up the map and the DB with junk items they just throw on the ground, which contributes to instability and lag. For that reason, I think that the trash spawning system needs to go, or at leased, be nerfed. We can only remove it if we replace it with something though. Some possible solutions:

1. Push for more rewards from quests, settlements, expos, etc. Systems which reward rebel players for participating in the server narrative; impacting citizen RP, etc.
2. Establish a proper rebel faction, which has supply lines and things to get scripts into the city, which provides for its members and promotes roleplay which aligns with the goals of the server narrative.
   1. This deserves its own thread, to be completely honest. I think its been done very poorly in the past. It can done right though and, if it is executed correctly, it can solve a lot of these issues.
   2. I have personally seen this work on plenty of servers in the past, years before HL2RP shifted towards 'player lead resistance groups' (which, I've personally never seen work well) like we're doing now.
3. Promote infiltration into factions such as the CWU, CP, etc where one can just walk out of the nexus or the warehouse with scripts, run fake workshifts, etc..

2) Things take too long
Yes, I'm aware that a lot of rebel economy related actions take forever. The reasons for this have always been to prevent people from being able to get end-game gear in under a couple of days. Which, in my opinion, is a bit silly. I think it is necessary for there to be speedbumps to prevent people from gearing up too quickly. At the same time, I understand that it doesn't respect people's IRL time, and puts a lot of people off from rebel RP.

I think to fix this, we could consider making certain timers for getting gear dependent on what class of item it is; not just a flat timer. It might take days to get an AK, but to get some AK ammo should be fast (<1hr) for example.


Anyways, those are a couple of my thoughts and suggestions. Feel free to discuss them, or come up with something different entirely

 

[Rebel RP Philosopher]

View attachment 26446

Please click the provided image above.

Here is my opinion on the loot and BMD issue. This is a creative solution I put together and can easily be modified by the development team. I considered it essential to have multiple spawn locations and different varieties of dealers to sell loot to (including loot spawn locations), increase rotation times, and decrease the number of chips carried per dealer.

Another interesting idea here would be to bring back "gas areas." Meaning that certain locations can ONLY be accessed by using proper PPE. An example of this would be a player having to wear a hazmat suit or gas mask to gain access to a particular sewer area or building with rare loot spawns.

What program did you use to make this flowchart?

 

[Cavity]

Hot take! I wouldn't want to see every rebel leader become a BMD. This just allows for so much self-supply that it would be ridiculous and allow for everyone to become a heavily armed mob within days if not hours. Not only would every rebel be decked out more than an OTA soldier would, but your average slummer would likely never get access to blackmarket items without creating their own group. Do you really think your average rebel BMD auth group is gonna sell weapons fairly - if at all to randoms? Don't even get me started about those specific players and staff who have tens of thousands of chips praying for a moment like this so they can arm themselves and all their friends with the best equipment on the server.

The purpose of a blackmarket is for it to be rare to see people with these types of connections and supplies. To be rare to obtain weapons. To be rare to obtain armor, gasmasks, hazmat suits, ammunition, etc. Do you know how hard it would be to smuggle weapons and other military-grade equipment into a fortified city? Depending on your connections, we can assume it would be almost impossible.

Giving every group leader BMD auth is a nightmare waiting to happen, I can already see the mega-geared rebels shotcopping and attacking the city daily. If you want to avoid a sewer camping problem for rebels, start by never implementing anything like this! People won't want to leave the sewers and die with their god-tier BMD auth and gear which supplies them and their friends.

In my opinion, the system has flaws but its good right now. You have set BMD characters who buy supplies and get them "delivered" ICly over the course of a few days in-game. You have NPC dealers you can sell your other garbage to for chips. While I would like this system to be expanded, completely throwing it away with the mentioned above wouldn't be a good move.

 

[The Milkman]

I can already see the mega-geared rebels shotcopping and attacking the city daily.

If you want to avoid a sewer camping problem for rebels, start by never implementing anything like this! People won't want to leave the sewers and die with their god-tier BMD auth and gear which supplies them and their friends.

So will rebels be scared of losing their gear they can now obtain infinitely more easily or will they be shotcopping 24/7. Which is it

 

[Cavity]

So will rebels be scared of losing their gear they can now obtain infinitely more easily or will they be shotcopping 24/7. Which is it

This is just being too nitpicky. You know the point I'm trying to make about how broken this system will be, so there is no point in addressing this.

 

[Cavity]

(Please click the images above for better resolution)

This is another interesting concept I threw together in addition to adding to my last post, because I was interested in the idea of gas changes, especially when it comes to rare loot spawns and structures. I will post both of the ideas here because I think it would be fascinating to have a more in-depth looting and gas system similar to a survival RPG.

 

[Rebel RP Philosopher]

Loot should be obtained through trial by football

 

[Rebel RP Philosopher]

 

[John Rico]

This is just being too nitpicky. You know the point I'm trying to make about how broken this system will be, so there is no point in addressing this.

You can shoot down every radical change suggestion the same way, but we've already gone through how many threads listing how the current status quo is broken? What's the point?
I'm sure staff would have a better time dealing with group oversight than having to make a ton of expos and whatnot.

The idea of giving the tools to the people willing to put in the time to generate roleplay (in this case the ability to equip an armed rebellion) has very tangible merit, since staff won't be able to do it effectively 99% of the time. Plus you should always 'push' your players into interacting or outright joining other groups instead of allowing them to play lonewolves who create no development for anyone. Like I said before:

Anyone trying to go fully on their own can still go for it, but they won't be catered to by staff and will probably have to go through the old-school grind loop or any other creative ways of getting their supplies.

 

[Cavity]

You can shoot down every radical change suggestion the same way, but we've already gone through how many threads listing how the current status quo is broken? What's the point?
I'm sure staff would have a better time dealing with group oversight than having to make a ton of expos and whatnot.

The idea of giving the tools to the people willing to put in the time to generate roleplay (in this case the ability to equip an armed rebellion) has very tangible merit, since staff won't be able to do it effectively 99% of the time. Plus you should always 'push' your players into interacting or outright joining other groups instead of allowing them to play lonewolves who create no development for anyone. Like I said before:

Avoiding an oversaturation of firearms, armor, explosives, and everything else in between should be a priority so that way not everyone and their moms tit has access to a gun and ammunition. Are we playing in the United States or in HL2RP I24?

There is a reason there are set BMDs, and all of these things are expensive and hard to obtain... There are plenty of ways to encourage player interaction, barter, and trade OUTSIDE of giving every rebel lead in this server BMD perms to spawn infinite guns, armor, explosives, and ammunition. In case you aren't aware, that would probably be over 10-15 people receiving perms, including myself. Now they sell to their friends and group members; do the math on how many people in the server get access to all of that gear right out of the doors. You're probably looking at a couple dozen.

 

[Cavity]

Who cares

Mature statement from a server staff member. Obviously, I care because I play on the server, donate to it, and share different views. If you're going to be rude instead of commenting about the ongoing debate, please don't reply.

 

[John Rico]

Avoiding an oversaturation of firearms, armor, explosives, and everything else in between should be a priority so that way not everyone and their moms tit has access to a gun and ammunition. Are we playing in the United States or in HL2RP I24?

There is a reason there are set BMDs, and all of these things are expensive and hard to obtain... There are plenty of ways to encourage player interaction, barter, and trade OUTSIDE of giving every rebel lead in this server BMD perms to spawn infinite guns, armor, explosives, and ammunition. In case you aren't aware, that would probably be over 10-15 people receiving perms, including myself. Now they sell to their friends and group members; do the math on how many people in the server get access to all of that gear right out of the doors. You're probably looking at a couple dozen.

Again, you are assuming a worst case scenario for some reason, as if there wouldn't be any oversight or finer details to the plans others have been proposing.

 

[Cavity]

This is true, as we don’t know exactly how they would go about this system. One thing we know for sure though is that there is zero chance they’d have the ability to have enough oversite to monitor a dozen players and all of their transactions with themselves, their friends, and group members. This could easily be 20-30 or more people were talking about with transactions.

 

[ultima]

This is true, as we don’t know exactly how they would go about this system. One thing we know for sure though is that there is zero chance they’d have the ability to have enough oversite to monitor a dozen players and all of their transactions with themselves, their friends, and group members. This could easily be 20-30 or more people were talking about with transactions.

youre assuming that it would be a literal q menu where you just spawn and fling weapons at your friends instead of an NPC where you use supplied chips weekly/monthly to appropriately deal with the logistics of the group.

also in realitly only about 3/4 people would get the ability to do this, not 15, as most likely only relevant groups with a background check from staff will be able to access this.

 

[swagile]

View attachment 26446

Please click the provided image above.

Here is my opinion on the loot and BMD issue. This is a creative solution I put together and can easily be modified by the development team. I considered it essential to have multiple spawn locations and different varieties of dealers to sell loot to (including loot spawn locations), increase rotation times, and decrease the number of chips carried per dealer.

Another interesting idea here would be to bring back "gas areas." Meaning that certain locations can ONLY be accessed by using proper PPE. An example of this would be a player having to wear a hazmat suit or gas mask to gain access to a particular sewer area or building with rare loot spawns.

i love this but i only have issue with this as it still doesn't address the main reason why the rebel eco sucks

cause it hampers rp

this chart goes by the perspective that the grind should stay the way it is, just be fine tuned to be more systematic, which is something i also brought up but in a more rough way earlier in this thread. but unless mid to high risk areas offer a lot of good rewards, its simply trading the current shitty system with a less shitty but fundamentally still shitty system that incentivizes you to grind for long periods of time to get anything except with the added caveat of more time now that you have to travel to multiple spawn points for BMD and multiple areas for loot instead of just one generalized area


idk if im making myself understood but basically your idea just increases the hoops rebels already have to jump through without increasing either the speed at which people go through the grind or add more roleplay quality like my and Liam's BMD suggestion

 

[swagile]

Avoiding an oversaturation of firearms, armor, explosives, and everything else in between should be a priority so that way not everyone and their moms tit has access to a gun and ammunition. Are we playing in the United States or in HL2RP I24?

There is a reason there are set BMDs, and all of these things are expensive and hard to obtain... There are plenty of ways to encourage player interaction, barter, and trade OUTSIDE of giving every rebel lead in this server BMD perms to spawn infinite guns, armor, explosives, and ammunition. In case you aren't aware, that would probably be over 10-15 people receiving perms, including myself. Now they sell to their friends and group members; do the math on how many people in the server get access to all of that gear right out of the doors. You're probably looking at a couple dozen.

also liek...

you never read the BMD suggestion thread then

a single group is 5 people minimum (1 leader 4 people)

so there would, at most, be 5-6 rebel leaders active at a time, because the resistance right now is about 30 active players. there is more, give or take, but they aren't that active and rebel reps and krah can probably back me up on that statement since most resistance do not even play rn

so 5-6 people with unlimited buy in for low tier gear, medium to small buy in for middle tier gear, and low buy in for high tier gear is acceptable

lets say you can buy 5 mid tier gear per week, and 1-2 high tier gear a week

thats 25-30 mid tier gear per week and 5-10 high tier gear a week

this is if you can even get the chips necessary because it requires you to use the BMD NPC's constantly and/or play constantly as the rebel leader would get a chip wage as well (this is ignoring all other factors like admin events / quests as they are not reliable at all)

in the grand scheme of things this is not a lot of gear, because you will be using said gear consistently for operations, such as buying explosives to bomb CWU, etc.

and even if we ignore all of these factors, like buy in limits, etc. rebels would still be limited by their chips. there's a reason that, even under the current system, rebels aren't constantly blowing up the city; because only the highest tier groups have a reserve of chips they are willing to use for operations, the rest would get bankrupt from a major operation going wrong (such as losing members or having to waste entire ammo loads), and there is other factors stopping them such as OTA response and bad map design

the BMD idea is still far superior, however, as people can decide not to grind AT ALL and just rely on their rebel leader's wage's OR grind minorly and sell stuff to the BMD NPC one hour per day and be able to supply themselves the low tier to medium tier gear needed to do operations while spending the rest of the time roleplaying with people. maybe it would even lead to the resurgence of resistance in the city, since you no longer need to run to sewers to get gear and can stay in city undercover and smuggling gear ICly while roleplaying with your undercover rebel operatives

tl;dr rebel leader BMD system more superior to random NPC-like BMD players that have no incentive or reason to actually help the resistance selling things to ppl

 

[swagile]

another thing that really harms the rebel economy and roleplay in general is the lack of ways to make city resistance viable

ppl want city to be revived and people to actually RP in city but the ONLY era where this was possible was during the BS era (bottle street) and that was by necessity since the most reliable way to get goods back then was to mass buy supplies like alcohol / adhesive supplies legally than to get it from the NPC bmds (yes rebel eco was truly bad back then)

currently, resistance in city isn't that viable outside of information gathering since there is 100 and 1 things you need to go through, OOC wise, in order to abuse ur position in a faction to get goods to your group. i know because i even used to be CWU director on my other rebel character back then and i could barely do anything because of OOC restrictions

the only role, really, that had any tangible resistance members was CMU back then and thats because their rogue rules were very loose so it had tons of rebels who'd do their job but discretly smuggle high tier medical goods out of the closet then cover it up by getting CWU to make more for them, and because of that it was a very active faction but mostly because rebel players played it

CWU needs to go through tons of hoops just to go rogue and even then u can only steal a handful of items a week when a normal rebel can just make said items in literally 2 hours tops, so there's no point in being a rogue CWU outside of reporting workshift details to the real rebels in sewers

i can't comment on rogue CP's as i never was one and only had to deal with one in a OOC capacity once, but i figure they have their own restrictions that probably suck, that and the fact that being a rogue CP in the current era is nearly impossible because City is dead, and meeting rebels requires you to go to Sewers, which means ur doing a sweep so liek... you can't talk to them or anything.

list goes on but thats why city is dead, since the entire economy is forced to be in the Sewers, which forces tons of grinding away from the main part of the server that matters (City), which kills the City, which kills CP activity since they have no one worthwhile RPing with (as they are busy dealing with new players / minges / high tier loyalists that want to suck their dick YAWN), which kills rebel activity since they can't pull any big operations without CP's on since doing operations without an enemy is both dumb from a IC and OOC rules perspective, which is why we have such a dead server, action wise that depends too heavily on handouts from administration

 

[JustWats]

Well guys.. Think it's been solved.

 

[Rebel RP Philosopher]

another thing that really harms the rebel economy and roleplay in general is the lack of ways to make city resistance viable

ppl want city to be revived and people to actually RP in city but the ONLY era where this was possible was during the BS era (bottle street) and that was by necessity since the most reliable way to get goods back then was to mass buy supplies like alcohol / adhesive supplies legally than to get it from the NPC bmds (yes rebel eco was truly bad back then)

currently, resistance in city isn't that viable outside of information gathering since there is 100 and 1 things you need to go through, OOC wise, in order to abuse ur position in a faction to get goods to your group. i know because i even used to be CWU director on my other rebel character back then and i could barely do anything because of OOC restrictions

the only role, really, that had any tangible resistance members was CMU back then and thats because their rogue rules were very loose so it had tons of rebels who'd do their job but discretly smuggle high tier medical goods out of the closet then cover it up by getting CWU to make more for them, and because of that it was a very active faction but mostly because rebel players played it

CWU needs to go through tons of hoops just to go rogue and even then u can only steal a handful of items a week when a normal rebel can just make said items in literally 2 hours tops, so there's no point in being a rogue CWU outside of reporting workshift details to the real rebels in sewers

i can't comment on rogue CP's as i never was one and only had to deal with one in a OOC capacity once, but i figure they have their own restrictions that probably suck, that and the fact that being a rogue CP in the current era is nearly impossible because City is dead, and meeting rebels requires you to go to Sewers, which means ur doing a sweep so liek... you can't talk to them or anything.

list goes on but thats why city is dead, since the entire economy is forced to be in the Sewers, which forces tons of grinding away from the main part of the server that matters (City), which kills the City, which kills CP activity since they have no one worthwhile RPing with (as they are busy dealing with new players / minges / high tier loyalists that want to suck their dick YAWN), which kills rebel activity since they can't pull any big operations without CP's on since doing operations without an enemy is both dumb from a IC and OOC rules perspective, which is why we have such a dead server, action wise that depends too heavily on handouts from administration

Delivering the facts once more!

 

[swagile]

sometihng else i thought up when thinking about the city rp issue cause rn the server is half outlands RP and half city RP

rebels don't rlly need to go to city (and are actively discourged to since all the loot is in sewers), so they self isolate

while citizens / loyalists aren't encouraged to be in sewers for obv reasons (all the loyalist points are in city)

so this is another way of how to fix the city dead issue while keeping the original system but making it benefit roleplayers over grinders

 

[M!NT]

Alright guys. So, this has been an important thread, and I appreciate all the feedback posted here. I think that we're at a bit of a stalemate though, and given the fact that we have a relatively clear plan moving forward, I'll be locking this thread after this post..

Do keep in mind that these changes will take time to roll out as a lot of this stuff is actively being developed. So, don't expect things to be fixed immediately after I make this post. This is why devs are typically quiet about what they're working on, to prevent from having shit slung at them from every angle about things taking too long. Or, people demanding changes after the work has been completed. However, in the interest of transparency, I will go ahead and state our plans here for you all to see.

We've taken all of your concerns into consideration. Not just the concerns in this thread, but also the concerns of the rebel reps, other faction leads, the balance team, and so on. There is more to do in terms of hashing out the specifics but, this is the 10,000ft view of the plan we have now moving forward:

1. We plan to move away from the current BMD and smuggler system, as its a bit game-y and hard to control from a balance perspective (ex: recent chip looping escapades). It rewards people for grinding trash spawns, and selling items, then rinse and repeat. We clearly don't want this loop in the game as it rewards non-roleplay. The fix for that that is to remove what we currently have with smugglers and BMDs, which enables this kind of non-roleplay related grinding in the first place.
2. We will be replacing it with a dynamic quest system, which GMs can control. Where you may approach an NPC which belongs to a rebel faction (such as Nacht, Wardens, LFC, etc) and receive a quest.
   1. Quests will have certain difficulty tiers, which will correspond to what needs to be done to complete them, and what rewards one may be eligible to receive. The quests will be highly configurable so that staff can dictate what is available to certain factions, and what rep requirements those quests will have, the completion requirements and rewards, the actual spoken dialogue, and so on..
   2. The tier of quest a player can accept depends on the rep they have with that faction, which will automatically increase and decrease based on the quests they've completed beforehand.
   3. A big requirement for this is the new area-based NPC spawner, which I've designed earlier in this thread. It's currently being worked on by the talented Mango.
   4. Another requirement for this is a revised crates system which will enable unique quest items to spawn under certain criteria.
3. Gears of Industry will provide another vehicle for players to obtain non-high-tier loot (such as clothes, certain armors, ammunition, etc.) whereas the higher quest rewards may be gained through completing certain rare and difficult NPC quests, or by participating in GMd quests (such as Expos).
4. We're actively working on more specific ways to make infiltration a bit more worthwhile. Details will follow later.
5. Trash will be staying around with a few minor changes. It will still be a mechanism for rebels to use to craft low tier items, and will be a part of the questing system as well, and it also integrates with GoI.
6. The weapons are being redone, and rebalanced, to help alleviate some of the current balancing issues with guns. There will be some sort of refunds for this. When its time, a thread will be posted describing said refund policy.
7. Chips will be removed, and credits will become the new chips- in the sense that they won't be so heavily integrated with the combine. Everyone will be using the same currency, and it will be either connected to your CID, or a physical thing. Some sort of exchange rate will be calculated, and everyone will have their chips turned into credits, when we're ready to make that change.

I think the above changes are the most reasonable for all factions, when balance is concerned, and makes things a lot more engaging. It will also shift the primary reward for high-tier items over to players which team up with others to complete rare, difficult quests, and players which participate in GMd quests. So, its a win-win.