The S2K Pandemic

[Astro]

Let me start this thread by prefacing that no individuals, groups, or factions are responsible for the constant fighting that the server has been subject to. This thread is not blaming anyone, but only the systems at play.

First, let us outline some objectives that this thread aims to accomplish and, hopefully, address.

1. Why do people "shotcop"? When is it too little, or too much?
   1. For Willard Networks V3, how can we design systems to disincentivize the prolific nature of shotcops on V2?
2. How can the resistance impact the server's narrative meaningfully WITHOUT engaging in S2K?

Currently, as it stands, the resistance has no real way of impacting the main server without performing a massive S2K operation. This has sorta been the case for two or more years.

I think, as @RedHotGinger outlined in the earlier discussion on this topic in the Rebel Discord, it is because of two reasons. One, any roleplay that they do in fact end up doing ends up sinking into the void, where it is not very noticeable. Two, because for better or for worse, S2King your way through a problem is rewarded far more than something done through roleplay.

In retrospect, this is largely true. In the most recent case with the assault on the SeCon meeting, players were "rewarded" with the death of multiple influential characters in the CCA, as well as the bounty of one of them. Then, they held out due to the oncoming swarm of Combine and further was rewarded with scripts from the death of that Combine. Perhaps this is not the best case. What about in the first cycle of Industrial 24? Too many to list and recall from those times. S2K is rewarded far too much. But, this is no fault of anyone. This is the product of the design of V2. For the future in V3, how can we learn from V2 so these same glaring problems are not rearing their ugly heads in?

In V2, to play as a resistance fighter who takes arms up against the Combine, you spawn in and grind. Then you use what you grind to kill cops on main. There, you either die and restart, or you keep grinding to repeat the cycle. The server is script-centric, and it always has been. Obviously, there is no way to completely revamp the core gameplay cycle of V2 without making it V3. The systems of Willard are too intertwined, unless someone is willing to pull out these systems. But I believe that there are some things that can be done to remedy this.

We could reimplement Willard's turn-based combat that V2 was built on. Not only does this make encounters significantly more deadly, but it also makes the skills of a character more important. The other upside is that this also equalizes encounters between people of different connections and weapon classes. However, reimplementing TBC is unrealistic because it requires significant tooling to make it functional again, and it is a band-aid solution.

Another solution is to incentivize pushing those who reached the "end-game" of Willard's gameplay loop off to the expo servers to do whatever they want to do. Not only does this give resistance groups a chance to impact the narrative away from the main server, but it also gives them things to shoot at that are not main server cops or administration. But the crux of this is that these expos CANNOT be S2K-centric. S2K-centric expos have a place, but should never take the forefront of a narrative, large or small. Perhaps this is also a band-aid solution.

One other solution that requires probably less effort than the other two I have listed is to simply reward and amplify the consequences that roleplay provides. Perhaps also lessen the impact of the consequences that S2K brings. Maybe Johnny Rebel sneaks into a meeting and roleplays out shooting the CA rather than whipping out a gun and blasting him immediately on the spot. Or, a group comes together and conducts projects in the slums to help out your average Joe Shmoe - attracting the attention of the local BMD group or Lambda (as an example). This seems like a no-brainer, but evidently, this has not happened.

Maybe you disagree with one or all of my potential solutions I have brought forth. If this is the case for you, then I implore you to reply to this thread to offer criticisms or bring up your own solutions. I want this discussion to remain civil and collegial, as no one is here with ill intent toward one side or another, but with mutual concern for the future of the server and our community.

 

[Goulashnikov]

One idea I've been toying around with is turning the world map into a sort of game-board, where factions use resources gathered on the server to then launch missions and capture tiles on the world map, with each sector having resources, a set map for the event to take place on, etc. If a faction wants to capture a tile, a GM basically plans a basic expo for them to carry out.

Spoiler: WIP Map

I have yet to flesh this out entirely but I'm throwing it out there rn in the hopes that it might inspire discussion. My hope is this gives factions:
1. A collective goal to work towards.
2. A money and resource sink that isn't just going to hoarding scripts
3. An off-server outlet for S2K

 

[Processed_Grain]

I agree with this as, frankly, something has to change.

However.

The solution to this is not just in the Rebellion, and it's a big mistake to think that.

The problem is that what we have fundamentally is a gigantic disconnect between the people on the server trying to roleplay (Everyone from Grey Slummers to CCA, Citizens to Loyalists, Workers, Researchers, etc.) and the "S2K Players" (Not just 'Rebels' plainly mind you, but anyone on the server who lives and breathes S2K shootouts as opposed to focusing on a singular character or faction. Whilst rebels might be big proponents of this, plenty of Overwatch and Civil Protection forces are also to blame for perpetuating this).

What I mean by this is that a lot of this Rebel S2K stuff is wholly encouraged by the fact that it just works. Why does it work? Simple. The Combine Faction lets them do it. They *have* to. They're the Main Characters of the server now after all.

This is a snippet from a reply I made on another (now locked) thread:

You have two factions.

One of them is made up of ''actual characters''(Non-Whitelist, grinded-for characters with some semblance of relationships). Rebels. They spend months - maybe years - building up, developing relationships, and planning pro-actively with the knowledge in mind that in only a few months, there will be a Red Letter Day that will do a lot of the heavy lifting for them. Their leadership is Proactive, and want what is best for their faction both OOCly and ICly. This faction has direction and characters to uphold it.

The other one is made up of seemingly mindless drones. Overwatch. They do not spend months or years 'building up', gathering material, developing complicated character relationships - mostly because they have no character (CP and CSF excluded but even then they're still marked as 'Expendable' compared to Rebels). They know there's a Red Letter Day and, frankly, aren't that interested in 'Winning' anyways. Their leadership is Reactive, and want what is best for the general Server Roleplay, giving ceasefires, setting limits to what they will or will not do dependent entirely on what the Rebel Faction has done, and really only do the occasional sweep at best. This faction does not have direction, nor does it have characters leading it or even there to uphold it.

When you have a situation like this, standards will obviously degrade. What's the point in roleplaying when you're fighting faceless robots? Make no mistake: Overwatch is S2K faction. However it's the fact that it is not supported by the Citizen Faction, nor does it have anything at stake, means that Rebels simply have no reason to do anything but reciprocate.

What you have to do instead of give the Citizen faction's representatives (The Player Civil Administration) full, unadulterated, supreme decision-making authority over Overwatch, Conscript, and Civil Protection forces. Whilst this may sound power-grabby or unfair to some, this is *the* only way to fix CvR.

For example; Instead of letting unseen members of the Event Team or Faction Leads plan events solely for their cliques to fight NPCs with little to no impact, you let the *Loyalist Faction* decide for themselves how to proceed. Have Chairmen and CA's (real characters) plan around bureaucracy in order to fight back against the Rebellion. Plan expeditions. Plan strategically. Turn the MAIN CONFLICT of the server from mere close-quarters firefights between nameless rebels and civil protection to something akin to a grand game of chess (I see something like this working perfectly in tandem to @Goulashnikov 's above proposal as, player-led Combine interference on the World Map will always beckon a response if the conditions are made right).

Again, that's just an example. What we really want here to 'Up the Stakes'. Prop up the Overwatch Factions with actual *Characters* behind them in order to properly change the dynamic to something more player-atuned and therefore, creates more roleplay.


Sorry if this seems unordered and hard to read, I'm quite tired

 

[Dr. Ternith Plague]

I agree with this as, frankly, something has to change.

However.

The solution to this is not just in the Rebellion, and it's a big mistake to think that.

The problem is that what we have fundamentally is a gigantic disconnect between the people on the server trying to roleplay (Everyone from Grey Slummers to CCA, Citizens to Loyalists, Workers, Researchers, etc.) and the "S2K Players" (Not just 'Rebels' plainly mind you, but anyone on the server who lives and breathes S2K shootouts as opposed to focusing on a singular character or faction. Whilst rebels might be big proponents of this, plenty of Overwatch and Civil Protection forces are also to blame for perpetuating this).

What I mean by this is that a lot of this Rebel S2K stuff is wholly encouraged by the fact that it just works. Why does it work? Simple. The Combine Faction lets them do it. They *have* to. They're the Main Characters of the server now after all.

This is a snippet from a reply I made on another (now locked) thread:


When you have a situation like this, standards will obviously degrade. What's the point in roleplaying when you're fighting faceless robots? Make no mistake: Overwatch is S2K faction. However it's the fact that it is not supported by the Citizen Faction, nor does it have anything at stake, means that Rebels simply have no reason to do anything but reciprocate.

What you have to do instead of give the Citizen faction's representatives (The Player Civil Administration) full, unadulterated, supreme decision-making authority over Overwatch, Conscript, and Civil Protection forces. Whilst this may sound power-grabby or unfair to some, this is *the* only way to fix CvR.

For example; Instead of letting unseen members of the Event Team or Faction Leads plan events solely for their cliques to fight NPCs with little to no impact, you let the *Loyalist Faction* decide for themselves how to proceed. Have Chairmen and CA's (real characters) plan around bureaucracy in order to fight back against the Rebellion. Plan expeditions. Plan strategically. Turn the MAIN CONFLICT of the server from mere close-quarters firefights between nameless rebels and civil protection to something akin to a grand game of chess (I see something like this working perfectly in tandem to @Goulashnikov 's above proposal as, player-led Combine interference on the World Map will always beckon a response if the conditions are made right).

Again, that's just an example. What we really want here to 'Up the Stakes'. Prop up the Overwatch Factions with actual *Characters* behind them in order to properly change the dynamic to something more player-atuned and therefore, creates more roleplay.


Sorry if this seems unordered and hard to read, I'm quite tired

If we're building off this 'grand theatre' type of gameplay, there could be specific factions within the Loyalists that seek to do certain things with the resources. Instead of solely focusing on "muh slums ban" or something, you focus on resource allocation, budgetary issues, and the ever-looming issue of the splintered yet whole Rebellion at your doorstep.

The Rebels, meanwhile, are practically perfect when it comes to the ideals of each faction. Back in the day before i24v1, Rebel factions each had their own goals, ideals, and even made their own settlements and bases. Rebels and Combine would fight at these locations, and between those times, the Rebels would continue to build up their ranks or spread out.

I know I'm not a Rebel, I can't speak for the Rebel faction, and if I did, I'd be a massive fucking hypocrite. But the way I see it, we need to do the following:
- Staff need to focus on creating some grand-play sort of thing. Resources to discover or exploit on the map, with higher tier resources needing high tier equipment - especially if its the Combine guarding specially placed depots.
- Something needs to be done with the CCA being massively ignored. Breen - while he is the Earth Administrator - had a whole army at his disposal. Why doesn't City-24 have control over their own OTA or Civil Protection? Yes, MCP is there to set standards, but they've essentially set control over the local elements of City-24, with little recourse to veer from that path.
- Rebels need to be given more expo opportunities and larger objectives than "kill scrombine". I saw it discussed in the Rebel discord earlier, and I'll put it out here: WE CANNOT IGNORE REBELS WHO WANT EXPOS. There's a whole world map to explore, and if a team of Rebels wanna gang together to go explore it? Then so damn well be it.

That's all I have to say. I'm tired, I'm going to sleep, lets start tmrw off with something better.

 

[ford-michigan]

I feel like if you shotcop you can't complain about dying. If you do some light RP of doing posters of course it does nothing, instead do major sabotage or targeted attacks. Also the only reason why CPs are also doing S2K is because they are actively being shot at. And the only non-characters are OTA, synths, and people who do ooc apps for loyalist roles. Rebels can do better and some most likely do, but the ones we see are the ones that post PK appeals and getting into fights and complaining about them, where most of the time we see looters rather than RPers. Some rebels are the problem and some combine players along with some citizens. Some combine players, mainly some CPs, act as if they have to be a real asshole which is fun for no one. And for the other side it's fun for no one if you just run up, shoot people, loot, die, then complain. Also fix this stuff NOW, not after a character reset that will shake up things. Why reset our characters if you don't even try at fixing the problem and when the player base will go right back to it given that a mentality change has not happened.

 

[Atom]

I feel like if you shotcop you can't complain about dying. If you do some light RP of doing posters of course it does nothing, instead do major sabotage or targeted attacks. Also the only reason why CPs are also doing S2K is because they are actively being shot at. And the only non-characters are OTA, synths, and people who do ooc apps for loyalist roles. Rebels can do better and some most likely do, but the ones we see are the ones that post PK appeals and getting into fights and complaining about them, where most of the time we see looters rather than RPers. Some rebels are the problem and some combine players along with some citizens. Some combine players, mainly some CPs, act as if they have to be a real asshole which is fun for no one. And for the other side it's fun for no one if you just run up, shoot people, loot, die, then complain. Also fix this stuff NOW, not after a character reset that will shake up things. Why reset our characters if you don't even try at fixing the problem and when the player base will go right back to it given that a mentality change has not happened.

rare ford-michigan w

 

[Astro]

I feel like if you shotcop you can't complain about dying. If you do some light RP of doing posters of course it does nothing, instead do major sabotage or targeted attacks. Also the only reason why CPs are also doing S2K is because they are actively being shot at. And the only non-characters are OTA, synths, and people who do ooc apps for loyalist roles. Rebels can do better and some most likely do, but the ones we see are the ones that post PK appeals and getting into fights and complaining about them, where most of the time we see looters rather than RPers. Some rebels are the problem and some combine players along with some citizens. Some combine players, mainly some CPs, act as if they have to be a real asshole which is fun for no one. And for the other side it's fun for no one if you just run up, shoot people, loot, die, then complain. Also fix this stuff NOW, not after a character reset that will shake up things. Why reset our characters if you don't even try at fixing the problem and when the player base will go right back to it given that a mentality change has not happened.

The goal of this post is to fix the core of the issue so that in the future, we don't have these problems, and so we can hold people accountable. We are not here about complaining about dying or what have you; there is a fundamental issue in Willard's gameplay loop that always pushes us to this point, not a mentality change. This is not anything new.

If we do get solutions implemented that do work, save for a few problem people as you mention, then we can excise them from the community. But until then, you cannot wholly fault people who follow how the server was designed. Not yet anyway.

 

[Processed_Grain]

...While there's a "Big Thread" up, I'm just gonna ask it here:

Why do we allow Overwatch/CP faction leads and OTA whitelist holders to have rebel characters? It's ridiculous and you're lying if you think otherwise.

 

[Knight]

This sounds like a bunch of mad combine RPers who get bodied in S2K are just complaining when they lose. Maybe there should be S2K tests to just get into Civil Protection? OTA? I heard they deployed 1000 HP synths today and still lost. Literally nothing but a skill issue. Maybe some standards in the Combine as a whole would just fix this issue instead of changing the entire server to let you win.

 

[Astro]

This sounds like a bunch of mad combine RPers who get bodied in S2K are just complaining when they lose. Maybe there should be S2K tests to just get into Civil Protection? OTA? I heard they deployed 1000 HP synths today and still lost. Literally nothing but a skill issue. Maybe some standards in the Combine as a whole would just fix this issue instead of changing the entire server to let you win.

I don't have a Combine whitelist.

 

[Lab]

This sounds like a bunch of mad combine RPers who get bodied in S2K are just complaining when they lose. Maybe there should be S2K tests to just get into Civil Protection? OTA? I heard they deployed 1000 HP synths today and still lost. Literally nothing but a skill issue. Maybe some standards in the Combine as a whole would just fix this issue instead of changing the entire server to let you win.

This is a bad mentality. The philosophy that undergirds this is shooting comes first, roleplay, merely an afterthought. Or that players who have their storylines fucked over, deserve it because they lost an S2K battle. And this is chiefly underscored by your proposed solution: that Combine players should simply 'get gud' at S2K. Is S2K skill really the solution here? Are the various Combine/loyalist factions doomed to have their storylines crushed and discarded like an old tissue because rebels are more skilled at strafing and clicking mouse 1?

 

[Lord Beckett]

This sounds like a bunch of mad combine RPers who get bodied in S2K are just complaining when they lose. Maybe there should be S2K tests to just get into Civil Protection? OTA? I heard they deployed 1000 HP synths today and still lost. Literally nothing but a skill issue. Maybe some standards in the Combine as a whole would just fix this issue instead of changing the entire server to let you win.

Not sure if it's ragebaiting at this point, but I don't know what you expect when rebels have no equipment/deployment restrictions. Put 20 rebels and 10 vorts in a room and Combine would never be able to respond to that. And I wouldn't even call holding a chokepoint a true measure of one's S2K abilities... Sure, it makes tactical sense, but there's no way Combine can push a group out of there without employing some seriously cheesy tactics (which would probably create a PK appeal in return). Staff used to ensure any major rebel attack would only be done if enough Combine were available to respond (e.g. the old system for vort freeings). Maybe staff should take some responsibility.

The true issue is that some players are not interested in legitimate roleplay, just shooting. That's a pretty gross mindset considering what this server is supposed to be. If certain players are just here to shoot people, then I suggest they leave the community. They would not be missed.

 

[Armenian Union]

This sounds like a bunch of mad combine RPers who get bodied in S2K are just complaining when they lose. Maybe there should be S2K tests to just get into Civil Protection? OTA? I heard they deployed 1000 HP synths today and still lost. Literally nothing but a skill issue. Maybe some standards in the Combine as a whole would just fix this issue instead of changing the entire server to let you win.

Never touch a roleplaying server again if you have this view holy shit lmao.

 

[wysiwyg]

...While there's a "Big Thread" up, I'm just gonna ask it here:

Why do we allow Overwatch/CP faction leads and OTA whitelist holders to have rebel characters? It's ridiculous and you're lying if you think otherwise.

... Because it's a video game and people can play whatever character/faction they want. The server population as it is now does not facilitate for a person to stick to one faction and if this was the case, people would get bored and burned out from playing one character/faction all the time.

 

[Goulashnikov]

This sounds like a bunch of mad combine RPers who get bodied in S2K are just complaining when they lose. Maybe there should be S2K tests to just get into Civil Protection? OTA? I heard they deployed 1000 HP synths today and still lost. Literally nothing but a skill issue. Maybe some standards in the Combine as a whole would just fix this issue instead of changing the entire server to let you win.

If the room full of unarmed passive RPers had just been better at S2K, they wouldn't have all died in a mass RDM incident.

 

[Pierrik]

This sounds like a bunch of mad combine RPers who get bodied in S2K are just complaining when they lose. Maybe there should be S2K tests to just get into Civil Protection? OTA? I heard they deployed 1000 HP synths today and still lost. Literally nothing but a skill issue. Maybe some standards in the Combine as a whole would just fix this issue instead of changing the entire server to let you win.

 

[Cjtn10]

This sounds like a bunch of mad combine RPers who get bodied in S2K are just complaining when they lose. Maybe there should be S2K tests to just get into Civil Protection? OTA? I heard they deployed 1000 HP synths today and still lost. Literally nothing but a skill issue. Maybe some standards in the Combine as a whole would just fix this issue instead of changing the entire server to let you win.

 

[dubik15]

This sounds like a bunch of mad combine RPers who get bodied in S2K are just complaining when they lose. Maybe there should be S2K tests to just get into Civil Protection? OTA? I heard they deployed 1000 HP synths today and still lost. Literally nothing but a skill issue. Maybe some standards in the Combine as a whole would just fix this issue instead of changing the entire server to let you win.

This has to be ragebait. Please tell me this is ragebait.

 

[Fregiscard]

Each single time something happen between the CivPro and the rebels factions on the server, there's always heated debate that goes in full circle, then it's goes back to a status quo with a debuff of one faction, or completle void of scenes/PK.

But let's just pretend nothing happens again.

 

[Dr. Ternith Plague]

Each single time something happen between the CivPro and the rebels factions on the server, there's always heated debate that goes in full circle, then it's goes back to a status quo with a debuff of one faction, or completle void of scenes/PK.

But let's just pretend nothing happens again.

View attachment 47988

But it isn't between CivPro and Rebels.

It's between the citizen factions and Rebels this time.