Victor-5

[TheRealDaniels]

Topic/subject: Complaint about OOC targeting

Whom it may concern: @Leudoberct
Summary:
This thread is about the Syringe Production workshift.

During the workshift we were given a toolkit script, and materials to make into syringes.
At the start I realized were using real scripts so I switched my worn and used toolkit with the toolkit were given, so my used 1/24 durability toolkit will not get used and break.
During the shift, I was unstacking the syringes I've made and accidently made a blood syringe, I commented about it in LOOC to no response, so I simply put the blood syringe in the box, as the two admins present didn't care.

I was tabbed out of gmod for a small while everyone was finishing their shift, at which point Victor-5 approached me and claimed ICly I was trying to steal the good toolkit as I haven't switched back, as soon as I realized what he is claiming I switched the toolkits but the officer pushed on with the charges. This issue derived because of OOC mechanics but I let it go and went along.

Then @swagile (Michael Anderson the CWU) took the blood syringe incident IC for some reason, and allowed @Leudoberct to capitalize and give me another charge, even though I stated in looc I made those and it was clearly an accident as it happened without any roleplay unlike all my other actions.
This felt like OOC stalking/targeting considering the prior event with @Leudoberct where he hunted me and another person down using npcs in the sewers with countless broken and overpowered NPCs (even admin-controlling an npc) pking a person unfairly and eventually retracting their decision after an appeal was made (see https://willard.network/forums/threads/arnold-abigail-dont-like-no-snarks.4857/#post-35513#)

The outcome of this event resulted in my character losing 100 social credits, setting them back to 100 SC from 200 as well as 60 credits fine + 2 charges, at no point I had ooc or ic intentions of stealing anything, I never left the premise of the workshift with a stolen toolkit nor did I intend to, in fact I haven't moved an inch or said I'm finished with the provided workshift.
At no point I had ooc or ic intentions of creating a blood syringe, I never roleplayed doing so either, hence taking it IC is outright wrong especially with the situation at hand.
IC common sense was lost over OOC grudges, why would a man with a clean record who works at a tool/repair store try to steal a toolkit?

I would rather someone neutral take a look at this complaint as it feels like some ill-ooc will was harbored here from staff that I have criticized before.
Its also good to note when I asked multiple times in LOOC who is Victor-5 so I can know who to make a complaint on they declined to answer even though I already knew it is @Leudoberct as it was obvious by their ooc toxicity disregarding my explanations oocly and pushing to continue their prosecution.

Suggestion or improvement? Well first of make any sense of this situation where a single misclick deletes weeks of work.

 

[Imperator RAD-X]

Hi, neutral view here.

I can understand your frustrations on this complaint thread but I wish to iterate very forthcomingly that you are not being individually targeted by the staff. From what I have read, it appears the unit was zealous enough to investigate and charge you for what appeared to be a legitimate catch. As per reading this thread, it likely wasn't given your information on the subject.

People often tend to ignore LOOC when they come across a scenario such as what is described, since there's been players recently in the past trying to juggle their way out of a situation in this exact way that was deliberately started. At best, I can accept that what occurred was an error in judgement with the left mouse button.

HOWEVER. From what I can gather:

- The player who is Civil Protection stuck to the motion of the in-character circumstance, for it's not uncommon for players to routinely try and commit to an LOOC scenario to get out of a situation for them, not knowing entirely what you did was a mistake.

- I can understand that your post is a legitimate claim, but I must highly disregard the aspect of this post regarding a personal staff hit on your character. Mistakes happen, and ultimately there was little way to prove you had made it by accident at the time until you have made this complaint. If you catch my drift, it is the highest of likely circumstances that nobody can know for sure how your view on the situation transpired afterwards and documented. However, members of staff should have engaged with you in LOOC to see your explained situation - I don't like the ignoring part, it is what bugs me. I'll wait for the other staff members to comment and explain their side of the story.

- The linked thread to the other appeal was accepted by Grass. The other thread can be easily understood as a player virtually deciding to stop, drop and roll with enemy NPCs in the sewers. Multiple times from what I can gather, as NPCs do not initiate TBC; players do. But that is not the case of this thread and it appears to be non-linked at best. An accepted appeal from two members of staff that were stated to be targeting you would not have supported the appeal.

- IC common sense was lost over OOC grudges, why would a man with a clean record who works at a tool/repair store try to steal a toolkit?

Again, from my own understanding and interpretation, this really does not appear to be the case regarding OOC grudges. The last incident was a week ago. It is easy to come to this conclusion but my gut feeling doesn't indicate this. I do expect @Leudoberct and @swagile to explain in full detail barring the situation with your toolkit and blood syringe. For all I can perceive, they saw it as an IC situation rather than an OOC one.

I will also state that the two members of staff are highly involved in a multitude of events, workshifts and other responsibilities corresponding to the main server, so it is not uncommon for them to run into you. It is best to refer to my second point as it will have been at best unknown about it really being a truthful mistake. Though they shouldn't have ignored you; that was unhelpful and only further worsened the situation to what it's transpired now and that is obviously a deliberate choice out of an abundance of ignorance - but it doesn't look linked to a personal vendetta; doesn't make sense to me.

Thank you for the complaint, will wait for the MoS to reply and explain.

 

[Maroon]

Hi Daniels,

I've looked into this case and the blood syringe mistake seems genuine. Ergo, one of the three charges will be dropped, leaving you with a total negative count of -6 rather than being reset to 100, staying at 194. The last re-education will also be voided, meaning the reset to 100 SC rule doesn't come into effect. The note on your character's file will also be removed.

That is the cop part of this. If you want to pursue it further you can, or it can be sorted if that is agreeable. I can't deal with staff disputes myself.

 

[swagile]

Yeah, IDK about the syringe part, I was busy being foreman (I was the CWU) and overlooking the RP of others; I didn't catch the LOOC of the blood syringe.

As for the toolkit I thought it was legitimatly you trying to steal a toolkit by switching your badly damaged one with the full one on the table. Hence why I continued with the RP at the time.

 

[TheRealDaniels]

Thank you three for the quick replies, I am genuinely happy this isn't a just waste of time and someone actually wishes to reply.
I would also like to state that I genuinely believe Maroon and Rad-x are neutral here as well as Swagile as I haven't had any negative encounters in the past, even though some bias to protect other staff members is natural, we all want to protect our colleges and friends. (I am not accusing anyone of that, I am simply saying it can happen and is normal, and we should be aware of this issue, naturally wanting to take your friends side is not inherently wrong)

The fact of the matter is, this is a staff member who I have criticized before and was generally very toxic and rude to me in private messages, he openly stated that he dislikes me for criticizing him "sniping at him" and has before done things that resulted in severe consequences for me and others around me. I.E the sewer incident with the countless strong and broken/buggy npcs being spawned, which he didn't back down from until a public PK appeal was done.
When I private messaged him after the incident he warned me to stop messaging him about it.
Just because I didn't die during that incident doesn't mean there wasn't some kind of targeting.

I'm happy you think highly of your staff team but you can't expect me to able to describe every single wrong thing this specific staff member did, many people simply get sick of certain staff members and quit the server instead of going and complaining, here is an example of something that most likely happened with this staff member and you've never heard off it:

Spoiler: Example

This was posted in WN | Underground

The overall feeling you're being targeted is unpleasant and the the enabling of that behavior by disregarding it or creating a situation where its acceptable is even worse.
I'm happy you came to the conclusion that there is not IC sense in drawing blood from yourself and decided to remove one charge but that's not the only issue here.

There is a huge issue of Booile and leudoberct simply ignoring any pms/looc I was shifting towards them during and after the situation, even going as far as to not answer who Victor-5 is in what seems to me like an attempt of dodging a formatted and structured complaint.
The other issue is that the wrongful behavior of the civil protection does stem from the mindset of the player, due to the nature of this universe you can't simply go and make a complaint ICly about an officer that has given you a wrongful charge, the expectation is that a player does their best to investigate serious crimes and not simply come up to someone and charge them which was the case here.
The lack of the ability of a citizen to prove their innocence is also at play, as most charges are dropped by lack of evidence on the spot, or the benefit of the doubt.

I will now explain in details what exactly happened during the shift and what went wrong.

We were given script toolkits, I placed my person toolkit with 1/24 durability at the start of the shift on the table so it isn't used up by accident.

I've completed the syringes using the crafting menu and /me's and tabbed out as I was finished but not everyone else was finished.
When I tabbed back in @Leudoberct was standing next to me with this text written "Unlucky for you, I have noticed you switching your toolkit for the workshift one, now face the wall" or something along those lines, no investigation, no rebuttal allowed no nothing, furthermore the action of taking the blood syringes IC gave legitimization of skipping an investigation and simply marking me as an insane criminal.

This ICly makes no sense as I haven't attempted to leave the workshift with the stolen toolkit, I simply stood in place and waited while the officer approached me and told me he knows I'm stealing.
There are hundreds of reasons here for the attempted theft to not make sense ;
My character is a tier 3 citizen for a while, with 200 SC and a clean record.
Many work-shifts on record with no theft or notes on bad performance.
There are cameras and everyone is aware there are.
Searches are performed before and after the work shift, so it would make sense to charge someone for attempting to steal at this point and not during the shift.
No investigation was done as I stated, it was simply "I know you stole, face the wall" (even though the shift has yet to end and I've yet to announce I've returned the equipment).
My character works at a toolstore and has access to a lot of toolkits without needing to steal any, as well as toolkits generally being easy to make.

None of these reasons came across @Leudoberct's mind, which makes me double down on the fact this is an OOC motivated attack against me, there were half a dozen different ways of going about this situation without charging my character outright with 48.
You could put the entire CP roster instead of Leudoberct's position and they would most likely tell you they'd give the loyalist the benefit of the doubt or wait until the shift is completely over to see if the loyalist returns the toolkit on their own, but instead Leudoberct went and charged me with theft before the workshift even ended, causing this mess.

 

[Imperator RAD-X]

Thanks for the additional info, Daniels. It brings a bigger light onto the situation at hand. I'll get this resolved for you. Will wait for a little while longer for Leudo to reply to the thread.

Thank you, man.

 

[Leudoberct]

Hi,

So, in terms of the toolkit, I had noted that you had the low durability toolkit, hence why I kept a close eye regarding the swapout of the toolkits. I emoted coming up and peering at your toolkit, and then took you up on it regarding the swapout, at the end of the ahift. You had already been backchatting my character earlier at the beginning of the shift, so my character was of course not polite in telling you to get on the wall. You tried to play this off as a mistake in LOOC, but it seemed wuite clear what had actually happened.

In regards to the blood syringe, I did not notice your initial LOOC about it mid-shift, as I had tabbed out to answer some discord messages while the shift proceeded. When booile's character then yelled about the syringes, I then proceeded with this as IC dictates. Given you had already tried to use a mistake as an excuse for the toolkit switch before, and booile having taken it IC, as well as having overseen the shift (which I had assumed would mean he would have spotted said LOOC discussion), I decided to keep it IC rather than engage in an argument with you in LOOC, to preserve the flow of roleplay. I already discussed this with other staff members before Rad-X had even posted on it, and we trawled through the logs and ended up coming to the conclusion to void the 99 charge- which is something I agreed to and suggested, as Maroon can confirm.

In regards to the sewer incident, both myself and Neonity had been watching at the time, and had both agreed in staff chat that the NPC had been bugged. I told you to stop arguing it with me in PMs, because the appeals section of the forum exists. It had already been decided upon by myself and Neonity to enact said PK- with Neonity being the one who actually applied it, not even me.

In regards to telling you to stop "sniping" at me, yes, this is true. Your very first interaction with me involved you attempting to belittle me over my position as a trial admin at the time. There has been multiple other instances where staff members have noted your poor attitude, especially concerning the BMD. This is not something that I alone had noticed. Regardless, I do not have any personal bias against you on an OOC level. In fact, it was only even a day ago that I trawled exhaustively through logs and screenshots to save your character from a PK after some rebels attacked him, because I had managed to determine that the reason for their attack was based on a falsehood. I went through the effort of deleting everything they took from you, dealing with angry players who had wanted you to be PKed and disagreed with me, and refunding all of your items. This was not a ticket that I had to take. I could have asked another staff member to do it, but I did not- and I even ended up defending you to other players when they couls not understand why I would not PK you. And even then, when I was refunding your items, you elected to be rude towards me. You complained that I did not use the refundkill command, and had to spawn each item individually. I explained to you that the command did not work after your items had despawned, but you continued to be snarky and belittling, telling me that "well it wasn't like that when I was an admin." I'm sure you can understand why that didn't go down well when I had just gone through the intensive effort of getting to the bottom of the situation and tracking down everything taken, only to be spoken to like that.

In addition, you were then later claiming that I had "done it wrong" and not given you your gloves, when the logs confirmed rhat you hadn't had these gloves for over a week before your death.

In regards to the screenshot of Otoo, this was taken before I had even joined the staff team, and conveniently omits that I had taken issue with Otoo after he had insulted me in LOOC. I don't see hoe it is relevant, especially given that it doesn't even have the full context.

I do not have any bias towards you OOC, and would have had another staff member help you rather than do it myself if so. However, not a single day has gone by in the past week where I have not seen concerns on the staff end of things about your behaviour. I think that if you considered the way you act, and speak to people, people would be more receptive to engaging with you.

 

[TheRealDaniels]

Hi,

So, in terms of the toolkit, I had noted that you had the low durability toolkit, hence why I kept a close eye regarding the swapout of the toolkits. I emoted coming up and peering at your toolkit, and then took you up on it regarding the swapout, at the end of the ahift. You had already been backchatting my character earlier at the beginning of the shift, so my character was of course not polite in telling you to get on the wall. You tried to play this off as a mistake in LOOC, but it seemed wuite clear what had actually happened.

In regards to the blood syringe, I did not notice your initial LOOC about it mid-shift, as I had tabbed out to answer some discord messages while the shift proceeded. When booile's character then yelled about the syringes, I then proceeded with this as IC dictates. Given you had already tried to use a mistake as an excuse for the toolkit switch before, and booile having taken it IC, as well as having overseen the shift (which I had assumed would mean he would have spotted said LOOC discussion), I decided to keep it IC rather than engage in an argument with you in LOOC, to preserve the flow of roleplay. I already discussed this with other staff members before Rad-X had even posted on it, and we trawled through the logs and ended up coming to the conclusion to void the 99 charge- which is something I agreed to and suggested, as Maroon can confirm.

In regards to the sewer incident, both myself and Neonity had been watching at the time, and had both agreed in staff chat that the NPC had been bugged. I told you to stop arguing it with me in PMs, because the appeals section of the forum exists. It had already been decided upon by myself and Neonity to enact said PK- with Neonity being the one who actually applied it, not even me.

In regards to telling you to stop "sniping" at me, yes, this is true. Your very first interaction with me involved you attempting to belittle me over my position as a trial admin at the time. There has been multiple other instances where staff members have noted your poor attitude, especially concerning the BMD. This is not something that I alone had noticed. Regardless, I do not have any personal bias against you on an OOC level. In fact, it was only even a day ago that I trawled exhaustively through logs and screenshots to save your character from a PK after some rebels attacked him, because I had managed to determine that the reason for their attack was based on a falsehood. I went through the effort of deleting everything they took from you, dealing with angry players who had wanted you to be PKed and disagreed with me, and refunding all of your items. This was not a ticket that I had to take. I could have asked another staff member to do it, but I did not- and I even ended up defending you to other players when they couls not understand why I would not PK you. And even then, when I was refunding your items, you elected to be rude towards me. You complained that I did not use the refundkill command, and had to spawn each item individually. I explained to you that the command did not work after your items had despawned, but you continued to be snarky and belittling, telling me that "well it wasn't like that when I was an admin." I'm sure you can understand why that didn't go down well when I had just gone through the intensive effort of getting to the bottom of the situation and tracking down everything taken, only to be spoken to like that.

In addition, you were then later claiming that I had "done it wrong" and not given you your gloves, when the logs confirmed rhat you hadn't had these gloves for over a week before your death.

In regards to the screenshot of Otoo, this was taken before I had even joined the staff team, and conveniently omits that I had taken issue with Otoo after he had insulted me in LOOC. I don't see hoe it is relevant, especially given that it doesn't even have the full context.

I do not have any bias towards you OOC, and would have had another staff member help you rather than do it myself if so. However, not a single day has gone by in the past week where I have not seen concerns on the staff end of things about your behaviour. I think that if you considered the way you act, and speak to people, people would be more receptive to engaging with you.

Whether or not the paragraphs after the first ones are true.

You still waited until a complaint was posted instead of discussing this over private messages or a group chat, the same way you did with Ronald’s PK, here in Israel we call this “Successful method” in rough translations, which is used to describe different government entities fining people wrongfully and only retracting the fine once someone decides to go to court.
You seem to follow this kind of method where you punish players wrongfully and only back out then when a formal complaint is posted.

Regardless of whether your actions had OOC motivation, the theft charge made no sense as you didn’t have legitimate proof I stole anything but only that perhaps I tried to.
You simply spilled the beans on stalking me too quickly, but decided to double down on them and not listen to my side ICly or OOCly hoping this will pass like it most likely does with other players who don’t have the time to go to the forums over every issue.

Data files and combine records can make or break characters, you cutting corners and not waiting to see if I would return the toolkit caused my character to be labeled wrongfully as a thief, with heavy sanctions being placed upon him such as firing from the store I work in as no owner would want a thief in it.

While you can interpret this as simply an IC issue this might as well be a PK appeal since this practically is the same as administering a terminal verdict when the person did nothing wrong. There is no way for me to ICly have this charge taken off as the initial investigation didn’t even happen you simply walked up and arrested me.

If you have any doubts OOCly whether I intended to steal the toolkit refer to the reasons I put above as to why it would not make sense.

Also just because swagile took something IC doesn’t mean you shouldn’t listen to what I have to say and simply disregard it.
My distrust in members of the staff derives solely from individual actions and how they defend those actions, while cooperation is required between staff members you should also question them if something seems wrong.
There is no shame in asking and questioning staff members hence I don’t understand why you get upset over me asking you questions.

 

[Imperator RAD-X]

Keeping this convo clean - I want everyone here to know I'll deal with this very appropriately. I'll launch an investigation by asking the members of staff, yourself one to one and get a better grasp onto the situation.

What I can confirm is what follows:

Maroon's reply: I've looked into this case and the blood syringe mistake seems genuine. Ergo, one of the three charges will be dropped, leaving you with a total negative count of -6 rather than being reset to 100, staying at 194. The last re-education will also be voided, meaning the reset to 100 SC rule doesn't come into effect. The note on your character's file will also be removed.

I accept this. The rest will need to be looked into.

All I ask is that everyone be more careful in their decisions.

 

[TheRealDaniels]

Keeping this convo clean - I want everyone here to know I'll deal with this very appropriately. I'll launch an investigation by asking the members of staff, yourself one to one and get a better grasp onto the situation.

What I can confirm is what follows:


I accept this. The rest will need to be looked into.

All I ask is that everyone be more careful in their decisions.

Just for clarification, I'm not fighting over social credits or regular credits.
I'm stressed out because I had no intention to steal a toolkit from the work shift and its its clear as day-light that is the case, the shift wasn't over when Leudoberct initiated the arrest, everyone just about finished I believe, and I have yet to claim I returned the toolkit like everyone else did because I was tabbed out, the same way he was when I spoke in looc regarding the blood syringe.
Again - there were a hundred ways to handle it better and make sense of the situation but there was a conscious decision by the staff member to take it as far and harsh as possible, with no chance of explanation nor IC or OOC.

Every orange tier charge can end up being used for amputation hence I am pushing this onward, the social credits and credits don't matter, they can gained back.
A record of thievery cannot be changed especially in this situation, this also has immediate consequences as the store I work in wishes to fire me for stealing.

Also here is an image of the conversation where Leudoberct feels I belittled him and were condescending to him, this is after he instantly pk'd me without anyone asking him to, after the CPs killed my character for dramatization of the JW, since I was unable to walk because of an injury. (It was agreed on that I get NLR and refund, yet he didn't want to listen.)

Spoiler: Convo

The duplicate pms are an issue with lag not me spamming.

Anyway I won't reply anymore until told otherwise as it just feels we're grinding water, this is tiring and frustrating.