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Implemented World of Willardcraft

  • Thread starter Thread starter Stinky Rags
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Stinky Rags

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Similarly to the title and after being seduced by Mullin, I'm posting my suggestion here regarding the current systems in place here at Willard when it comes to the RPG systems.



In my opinion, they're massively overtuned, massively abundant, easily abused and a crippler for genuine Roleplay, especially in the realms of the CMU/CWU, and Resistances, and I shall explain this best I can with my three hours slept brain.

Roleplay Game elements in any RP setting can be quite the enhancer for immersion and character investment; if we think of games like Skyrim, Fallout or MMORPGs like WoW, SWTOR or Guild Wars, generally the idea of building up a character from scratch is an intensely enjoyable thing, and it's likely what got a lot of us into roleplay in the first place; investment into any system will breed investment in the whatever the system is pushing, in an RPG it is your character, and you grow with them, therefore establishing emotional attachments to them and the characters they love and meet along the way.

Roleplay itself is, as obviously ya'll are aware, something quite a bit different. In an RPG it is common to start as the weakest of the weak; the newbie, the fattiest of all the fats, which is how the game can progress and create an investment as you choose how your character grows. In Roleplay though, we have the freedom of choice, expression and goals; we can roleplay a youthful scamp that hasn't so much as set foot properly into the harsh adult world, or we can roleplay a gruff, middle-aged man who's seen it all - and has the experience, therefore, to boot.

Willard Network's current problem, for me, is that your character: Their backstory, their experiences, their knowledge... it doesn't matter as much as I believe it should, not least in comparison to the current skill system.

To share my own experiences with my own character-- Kelly, my Irish former-drunk, has a brief, although impressive background in academic attainment. Making sure to adhere to lore and timelines as best I could I've clearly drafted that she has had an MIT education; a bachelors degree, pointedly in the fields of engineering, and later mechanical engineering. From such a prestigious academic estate as well as the woman's clear interest in engineering through both backstory and roleplay, one may think she'd be the perfect candidate for -- as an example, a rebel group. A sudden trip to the Outlands may require a car to be fixed, and Kelly would be a fantastic choice; it'd allow the character to flourish in the fields I wanted to specialise her in, as well as make her a character that is necessary to a group, instead of being there merely to hold an MP7 and shoot at the OTA that fly in to ambush us from observer. Alternatively, she might be a member of the CEC, and with her well-established grasp of engineering be able to quickly craft items necessary to prevent some sort of city outage with aid of her work colleagues.

This is how roleplay should be to me, however, it isn't quite there yet for us on the server.

As of right now, Kelly would not be given the opportunity realistically to work on a car for a resistance, she would not be an excellent addition to any engineering team for the Combine. Why? Her Crafting Stat is too Low. Yep, her crafting stat is too low; disregarding the character's backstory, In-game experiences and anything else, due to an OOC system, she is effectively barred from roleplay (Albeit NOT officially), but any group wanting to progress will want the highest crafters, the highest stats... this makes roleplay more of a monopoly, based on people that spend too much time farming things rather than roleplaying and developing a character. It is actually because of this reason, as well as others that I'll explain, that I effectively gave up on trying to make Kelly an engineer here on Willard, and instead focus on more passive things she has experience in, but not in abundance - like the CMU.

To me it's quite baffling; if I developed a character that was a scientist - at the top of my head, a theoretical physicist. Or perhaps a bio-scientist. They actually... aren't one; their background and character experiences don't matter at all, what would matter is their crafting stat, or their medical stat. I do find it quite amusing that to be a scientist here we need to rummage through bins and break down empty cans of what was once breen's water. Come on.

I also note that to be a decent doctor you need to really buff up your medicine skills. Even if your character is a literal doctor, and literally attended medical school and performed surgery on Prince Charles you still can't use a med kit, that is actually insane. I am aware this is changing at some point, but my point still stands -- there is a clear focus on OOC attributes than anything IC, or established through roleplay. This is more akin to Dark RP than anything else.

With such an emphasis on attributes and skills, it's made attribute whoring a genuine problem in the server. It's visible, public, and very off-putting to newcomers who may want to try out the community.

If you sit on the server in the early hours of the morning there's a chance you'll see quite the spectacle. Bunches of citizens; ones in regular clothes, some in suits, some in bandanas down in the underground - all different in background, all different in walks of life, but what do they all share in common? Running through the city and searching through bags of literal faeces. Seriously, it looks absolutely awful; even if I wasn't rping and just idling, to see so many people running around in a circuit on the map to grind out their crafting skills for a gun is so absurdly obnoxious I've no idea what outlookers think. People that grind out hourly their skills without even so much as a quote of speech to supplement it, just so they can be ahead of the curve - how is this Roleplay?

This sort of system focused so heavily on OOC skills and scripts also causes a lot of drama.

For any Roleplayer worth their salt, a good character death is a good send off; the final chapter to a thrilling tale, and the mature of us will be ready to start a new story with a brand new character, with nothing in their inventory but a suitcase (I wish I was so mature). But to those that value scripts and grinded skills will not take this so pleasantly, and have not taken this so pleasantly. And I UNDERSTAND as to why; if I spent hours upon hours of my life to get my character to a point where they can spawn in guns with the right scripts only to be killed, knowing I had to do it again? I'd be pissed, and I know for a fact I'd try everything to reverse that PK. Furthermore, any items that are stolen, or destroyed, or otherwise lost... but took me so long to make, I'm going to be mad lol. That causes forum posts, that causes discord rage, that causes admin's being called a massive penis - no one wants that. Foster a friendly roleplay environment rather than a cut-throat pseudo capitalist monopoly.

I don't blame those that have done it, however; rather, they were forced into the system. It feels like to progress in Willard you have to submit to that grind.

Which is a turn-off, and for a great many people I imagine. People that put their heart and soul into a character only to be completely bypassed by someone who spent 5 hours every morning combing the skills to beat them in a field; despite, perhaps, the character in question not even having any qualifications. This raises the point on how the hell creating a bunch of flashlights makes you able to create kevlar vests or something, but hey ho. It was made clear that even freeing a Vortigaunt requires skill in crafting; but why? Surely someone who's roleplayed out extensively looking over the biotic shackles, and is, I dunno, a PhD doctorate holder in theoretical engineering surely at a better disposition than Johnathan 'CremeEgg' Bangor who's backstory is they're a rugby player, but just so happens to have 40 crafting, no?

I'd like to reiterate that the skill system isn't a bad thought in itself, but the implementation, the focus and the necessity it has for roleplay makes it unbearable. It should be there to aid roleplay, to offer bonuses in the small margins rather than become this sole focal point of existance.

To me, crafting has always been something you do by the side. You can't create guns, you can't create kevlars, or ammunition, but you could make a hatchet, or a backpack, a uniform. To me, medicine isn't if your character can have the knowledge to use a basic first aid kit, but it's about the effectiveness of your healing during combat situations, or how much your healing does when applying medical items such as medi-gel. Skills should not in my opinion be a gatekeep of roleplay, neither should it be a necessity of it. It should be something on the side, something to passively improve your character instead of being the reason you log on the server. Sincerely, if I wanted to grind out attributes and skills all day I'd log my runescape account again.

A possible remedy of fix is to overhaul what can and can't be used in the system. Additionally to remove all skill barriers and requirements for jobs, items, and events. Either trust your own bloody community to roleplay their character believably or leave it to a /roll. I'd also consider reprimanding players that are attribute whoring; I remember back in the day it used to be a seriously bad thing if you did that, why do we just kinda accept it? It's even worse here as attribute whoring gives genuine boons that can't be beaten by roleplay.


End of rant. I'm sorry if there are any spelling or grammar problems, I am indeed writing this on 3 hours sleep. I'll edit it once I wake up, love u. (I say all of this because I care, not to shit on anyone; I think everyone here wants to see Willard do well!)


P.S
I think it's fucking hilarious that food increases your stats so much. Kelly's a frail, pale ginger, but if she munches on some bread she's throwing an EOW through an apartment complex window.
 
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Thank you for the constructive post. I'll harass the CM's to make sure they all take a good look at this, and Atle as well, and shoot a reply.

From a personal viewpoint, the skill system has an incredible amount of potential. I've been playing HL2RP for a long, long time and the reason I signed up with Willard was because they were trying something completely different. I think the mix of RPG elements and roleplay is generally a good synthesis, provided it is implemented correctly, which it is currently not. My core stance on the matter is that the system should streamline things such as crafting and combat, which in a way, it is slowly working towards; it's just incomplete. That way, people can focus all of their attention on the roleplay aspect.
 
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Just a quick suggestion on this, not a massive reply; surely something like, replacing a few stat points when creating the character with maybe boosting a specific skill would have a good effect on this? I mean, if your character is good at crafting based off your backstory, you could maybe select a perk at the beginning of creating this character which boosts your crafting level to like, level 15 or something along those lines; or maybe it allows you to learn the skill faster. I am fully inclined to agree with this post here, I think it's more to do with reforming the skill system in a manner where player backstory can have an effect, more then just removing it because the sake of doing so; this brings a lot of potential to the system.
 
It makes playing a pain in the arse when my character has the backstory that should allow them to do certain things but it can't happen due to a lower skill. It should be more of a bonus than a necessity for RP. At least what Mullin said, a way to boots skills. It'd also be nice to be able to get a one time attribute change now the system is properly worked out.
 
This is why I’ve always been opening to having ALL skills at once, while choosing what you increase, along with a tagged skill in character creation. Essentially what New Vegas does. It allows you to get a head start, saying “My character was better at doing this” and what not. Then finally, based on your Intelligence attribute, impose a cap to those skills.
 
This is why I’ve always been opening to having ALL skills at once, while choosing what you increase, along with a tagged skill in character creation. Essentially what New Vegas does. It allows you to get a head start, saying “My character was better at doing this” and what not. Then finally, based on your Intelligence attribute, impose a cap to those skills.

Which I fully agree with, I know nothing about devving at all; so I always like to think my opinion is shared by the majority as we ain't all devving geniuses. I do believe this would be good to see; we open up for freedom, but do not allow the freedom of characters choice when we disregard what they could've done pre-war and in their background, a perk system of allowing people to straight up get a boost in certain skills would heavily justify this in my opinion, now it's no easy task and would take some time to be implemented; but honestly could make a huge difference and I would feel like my character is specialised in something.
 
This is why I’ve always been opening to having ALL skills at once, while choosing what you increase, along with a tagged skill in character creation. Essentially what New Vegas does. It allows you to get a head start, saying “My character was better at doing this” and what not. Then finally, based on your Intelligence attribute, impose a cap to those skills.
I like the idea that everyone should be able to benefit from every skill, although I think that if everyone can max every skill then this becomes broken. If I can get 50 in every single skill I become a god, and the way the system now forces people to work together is an example of how this RPG system does sometimes promote roleplay (or at least co-operation).

Having tiered caps based either on stats or tagged skills would be ideal I think. For example, maybe you can get up to 30 in any skill - but you can only get to 50 in your tagged skills.

I don't think you should relate this to a stat like intelligence across the board because then everyone just spends all their points in intelligence and your stat system is wasted. Alternatively, have the stats that improve a skill determine the cap if you want a more fluid system like that - but personally, I don't think a fluid system is necessary.
Just a quick suggestion on this, not a massive reply; surely something like, replacing a few stat points when creating the character with maybe boosting a specific skill would have a good effect on this? I mean, if your character is good at crafting based off your backstory, you could maybe select a perk at the beginning of creating this character which boosts your crafting level to like, level 15 or something along those lines; or maybe it allows you to learn the skill faster. I am fully inclined to agree with this post here, I think it's more to do with reforming the skill system in a manner where player backstory can have an effect, more then just removing it because the sake of doing so; this brings a lot of potential to the system.
The big problem you're going to come across when trying to get this to work is balancing what is cool for characters, and what is balanced when someone tries to exploit the economy. If anyone can make a character who starts with super high smuggling or crafting you're going to be in a difficult position where the economy is immediately broken. That being said, there is clearly the need for more flexibility than there is in the system we have now. The only solution I see that resolves both of these brings a couple of new problems.

The main thing that comes to mind for me is making character auths standard practice rather than the exception to the rule, if everyone submits a character auth and showcases their backstory, their ability to roleplay and their competence in-game then this would then prompt some skill changes relative to the quality of the aforementioned criteria.

The main problems I see with this are:
  1. Being friends with whoever does char auths is going to be very beneficial (if there is a large enough team people can excuse themself from dealing with people they know)
  2. The amount of char auths being received would be difficult to deal with
  3. This puts a large impetus on new players to write a long application just for playing on the server
  4. Those that don't submit a char auth would be at a tremendous disadvantage

edit: formatting i wrote this fast aaa im doing so many things at once
 
I was reminded of this thread earlier tonight in another conversation of mine:


That thread seemed to have a somewhat similar purpose as this thread. To add more "roleplay" to the skills system which presently tends to be entirely based around grinding and script gathering, which as stated earlier in this thread and on the OP is a failure in many regards.

However, similar to that thread implementation of a more roleplay-based skill system ultimately comes down to if the developers wish to do it or not.
 
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I was reminded of this thread earlier tonight in another conversation of mine:


That thread seemed to have a somewhat similar purpose as this thread. To add more "roleplay" to the skills system which presently tends to be entirely based around grinding and script gathering, which as stated earlier in this thread and on the OP is a failure in many regards.

Difference is, this is a complete revamp; while this could easily just be fixed with a perk system upon character creation, or even just a tick in which skill you want boosted when you join.
 
I'm in agreement with this thread.

The whole issue here is among afew things.
Lack of options.
Lack of Branching.
Lack of means to use your skills in applicable ways (Somthing me and DeNuke tried to solve.)
Lack of means of improving your skills through roleplayable means (Ditto)
Lack of Backstory influence into your skills

The biggest issue here is itemization focusing which permits people to grind skills. In short: The crafting skill doesn't push roleplay because all the means to crafting is held up in a contextual menu that skips what some would consider the tedious part which is the roleplay itself. Trying to automate everything is always the death of roleplay in itself, it doesn't matter if it's a skill system or not. You need your Admins to play a special role in helping players to develop their character and brand their roleplay into the server around them.

I've argued this for years now but not many people seem to get it. Like in a pen and paper setting you need to invest time into the characters around you as a Game Master and take special attention to how they grow as characters. Automating a system takes all of that away and cheapens the entire experience.

The point of a skill system is to keep the player character defined and within' limitation. This is why I made this thread:

You can make this kind of system without automating every function and instead through the use of competent administration and a rule Guide. These kinds of systems are VERY simple to create and follow so long people have a easily accessible repository to have their details viewed.

Let me demonstrate a example of why a character focused system is better then a automated system.

**Citizen A is attempting to smuggle equipment past a Unit checkpoint.**
**Units wish to search the citizen.**
**Citizen complies but acts like a complete bell-end and has all in essence tied the contraband to his face.**
**Due to the automated system, the CP's can not detect the Contraband.**

Whilst in a character central system you get the same scenario except the GM or what they call a DM in PnP turns around and says "I think you're going about this awfully and so this and this consequence occurs.

As of right now, Kelly would be given the opportunity realistically to work on a car for a resistance, she would not be an excellent addition to any engineering team for the Combine.
Op was nearly onto something important here too. There is no distinction in the skill system- a mechanical engineer isnt the same as a weapon crafter or a electrician. By picking the crafting skill and reaching max stats in the skill you become a 200IQ individual who specializes in IT/Engineering/Combine tech/Weapon crafting/Etc.

In the end the issue can be summarized as the system was conceived more akin to a RPG on a computer game such as Skyrim rather then a more intricate system that is built to have administrative oversight like PnP/DnD- There is a huge distinction in how this was conceived and I don't think people considered this.

Hell, fuck it. I could design a PnP system that'd work and litterally show you guys how simple these things can be.
 
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I know this is a double post, but the closest thing I've seen so far in the server was Atles and his roleplay with me and Tech as we were trying to anaylse video feed and making use of our characters knowledge over anaylsing data and Tech's ability to make use of software to synthesis a really positive mini-event for our characters as we learned data.

This is how GM'ing should be handled, small scale and character centric. Add in a character centric skill system and you got a really competent system for maximum enjoyment.
 
A possible remedy of fix is to overhaul what can and can't be used in the system. Additionally to remove all skill barriers and requirements for jobs, items, and events. Either trust your own bloody community to roleplay their character believably or leave it to a /roll.

Sorry to say it, but I wouldn't trust half our playerbase (and 99% of the overal gmod community) any further than I can throw them. Just look at what happens when I allow people to freely crouch outside of their turn in TBC... they spam it to make themselves harder to hit in the most unrealistic way possible.

I mean, I am always open for suggestions for alternative systems. But keep in mind that trust isn't an option, neither is GM's babysitting people as they already are swarmed with requests (and just looking at babysitting crafting: that would increase the workload tenfold).

If you don't want this grind, IMHO HL2RP isn't the best gamemode. It is too much based on items and you simply cannot trust your players due to all the player vs player conflict going on where people will abuse and exploit whatever they can if given the slightest chance to do so to get an edge. Or you get someone from another community who has no intention of playing by your rules, but will pretend he does to get away with as much abuse as he can.
 
If you don't want this grind, IMHO HL2RP isn't the best gamemode. It is too much based on items

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I'm in agreement with this thread.

The whole issue here is among afew things.
Lack of options.
Lack of Branching.
Lack of means to use your skills in applicable ways (Somthing me and DeNuke tried to solve.)
Lack of means of improving your skills through roleplayable means (Ditto)
Lack of Backstory influence into your skills

The biggest issue here is itemization focusing which permits people to grind skills. In short: The crafting skill doesn't push roleplay because all the means to crafting is held up in a contextual menu that skips what some would consider the tedious part which is the roleplay itself. Trying to automate everything is always the death of roleplay in itself, it doesn't matter if it's a skill system or not. You need your Admins to play a special role in helping players to develop their character and brand their roleplay into the server around them.

I've argued this for years now but not many people seem to get it. Like in a pen and paper setting you need to invest time into the characters around you as a Game Master and take special attention to how they grow as characters. Automating a system takes all of that away and cheapens the entire experience.

The point of a skill system is to keep the player character defined and within' limitation. This is why I made this thread:

You can make this kind of system without automating every function and instead through the use of competent administration and a rule Guide. These kinds of systems are VERY simple to create and follow so long people have a easily accessible repository to have their details viewed.

Let me demonstrate a example of why a character focused system is better then a automated system.

**Citizen A is attempting to smuggle equipment past a Unit checkpoint.**
**Units wish to search the citizen.**
**Citizen complies but acts like a complete bell-end and has all in essence tied the contraband to his face.**
**Due to the automated system, the CP's can not detect the Contraband.**

Whilst in a character central system you get the same scenario except the GM or what they call a DM in PnP turns around and says "I think you're going about this awfully and so this and this consequence occurs.


Op was nearly onto something important here too. There is no distinction in the skill system- a mechanical engineer isnt the same as a weapon crafter or a electrician. By picking the crafting skill and reaching max stats in the skill you become a 200IQ individual who specializes in IT/Engineering/Combine tech/Weapon crafting/Etc.

In the end the issue can be summarized as the system was conceived more akin to a RPG on a computer game such as Skyrim rather then a more intricate system that is built to have administrative oversight like PnP/DnD- There is a huge distinction in how this was conceived and I don't think people considered this.

Hell, fuck it. I could design a PnP system that'd work and litterally show you guys how simple these things can be.

Surely the perk system would do the same thing, no? Like, even name the perk as somewhat of a backstory, almost like M&B do it. Obviously nothing that drastic, but based on what backstory/perk you pick; you gain a boost in the skill level, to begin with. I think building on this system, we can make it work; scrapping it shouldn't be the resort, because I just think we can add SO much more to the system for it to work and actually focus on what people want their character to be, because at the end of the day; you create the character based off their backstory and who they are, not someone who is just empty-minded.
 
I think Willard has done quite well in removing some of the most contentious player-lead gameplay elements (like combat) and turning them into something mechanical - think Turn-Based Combat. However, I have to agree that the Skill system is a bit grind-heavy and I'd rather see it change/evolve in a different way.



As a compromise with our current system, I think an alternative might be allowing people more points to select/tag sub-skills (like shooting/crafting/medicine etc.) that they'd want to have a significantly higher level in; think the Fallout system, where you select your SPECIAL stats and then tag individual skills to have a starting boost on. However - although this would reduce the grind a little bit - I'm not sure this would solve OP's issue with the system.



Another (slightly more dissimilar from our current system) option would be to have something like Rimworld's prepare carefully mod; the player could select their skills and boost them to a *significantly* higher level than you can start with currently, and select which skills they have a passion in to level them at a faster rate -- passions could either be static, and only selected at character creation, or the passions could use the current system of selecting a skill to level up (this might pair in quite well, so people can't slowly tick passions over and level their entire skill-set to max -- if you change passion, you lose the XP you've gained above your base experience for that skill like it works currently).

Although this system might allow someone to create a character that is incredibly competent in one specific, focused skill, they'd suffer by not being nearly as competent in other categories; this might encourage players to roleplay more to their strengths, and band together to actually use each other's skillsets in roleplay instead of just leveling them together.

1610379238104.png

In the image above, you can sort of see what I'm on about - the SPECIAL skills are removed (strength, intel, perception etc.) but sub-skills can be boosted to near max or lowered to very low (obviously limit with a set amount of points), which allows for greater flexibility in character creation - is your character an army-medic, and knows how to shoot AND heal, but they're poor at crafting/speed/smuggling? Is your character a brilliant doctor, but can't defend themselves reliably? It should be up to the player to decide.

(I understand that this would be a significant departure from our current system and would require a lot of work/potential temp-server close, but I'm just spitballing.)


Just a quick suggestion on this, not a massive reply; surely something like, replacing a few stat points when creating the character with maybe boosting a specific skill would have a good effect on this? I mean, if your character is good at crafting based off your backstory, you could maybe select a perk at the beginning of creating this character which boosts your crafting level to like, level 15 or something along those lines; or maybe it allows you to learn the skill faster. I am fully inclined to agree with this post here, I think it's more to do with reforming the skill system in a manner where player backstory can have an effect, more then just removing it because the sake of doing so; this brings a lot of potential to the system.
Mullin's idea here would be a decent suggestion too, imo. However, I'd change it up by allowing someone to have many more points to dole out in to different skill trees is a better idea; they could be really good at one thing but suck at another, or be a more of a jack-of-all-trades, master of none sort of deal - that way we're significantly diminishing the skill grind for individual players. Balancing can still fairly easily come from item distribution/roleplay (and skills could still be capped at 70-75% max at character creation, so there is still some degree of levelling).


tl;dr - Give players a lot more skill points to spend on individual sub-skills (shooting/medicine/speed etc.). Grinding is already tricky enough with item spawns/rarity - roleplay is being replaced with cold RPG elements in the current skill system imo. Allowing players to customise their character's stats to a higher degree would offer more individuality/might make RP more interesting/reduces cold RPG number crunching.
 
From a personal viewpoint, the skill system has an incredible amount of potential. I've been playing HL2RP for a long, long time and the reason I signed up with Willard was because they were trying something completely different. I think the mix of RPG elements and roleplay is generally a good synthesis, provided it is implemented correctly, which it is currently not. My core stance on the matter is that the system should streamline things such as crafting and combat, which in a way, it is slowly working towards; it's just incomplete. That way, people can focus all of their attention on the roleplay aspect.

One thousand percent in an agreement with you Maroon; I think a synthesis of RPG elements and roleplay when done correctly, like you said, can be a fantastically unique trait for the Willard Community. I acknowledge as well that the developers and testers will have put in a lot of hours to make this work, especially why I'm not asking for a removal of it. For sure, there are a lot of problems still with the system however things like abuse of the system by players, previous abuse in the past by former members of staff, the importance of it over RP etc, as I've gone into. If the great staff team can come together and figure a way of making RP the driving factor rather than the skill system I'm all for it.

I mean, if your character is good at crafting based off your backstory, you could maybe select a perk at the beginning of creating this character which boosts your crafting level to like, level 15 or something along those lines; or maybe it allows you to learn the skill faster. I am fully inclined to agree with this post here, I think it's more to do with reforming the skill system in a manner where player backstory can have an effect, more then just removing it because the sake of doing so; this brings a lot of potential to the system.

Indeed, that's a possible remedy, although it's a remedy to only one of the problems currently in the system. I think if the skills were more personalised, such based on jobs or experience, that could be quite interesting. An example could be, I dunno: Outland Walker: For whatever reason, your character has traversed through the Outland for a time, giving them an edge with firearms and combat against hostile xenian lifeforms. That could also potentially mean people can apply for their own custom skills with pros and cons like our current character authorisations - though this is certainly limited to if the developers can pull it off.

Sorry to say it, but I wouldn't trust half our playerbase (and 99% of the overal gmod community) any further than I can throw them. Just look at what happens when I allow people to freely crouch outside of their turn in TBC... they spam it to make themselves harder to hit in the most unrealistic way possible.

I mean, I am always open for suggestions for alternative systems. But keep in mind that trust isn't an option, neither is GM's babysitting people as they already are swarmed with requests (and just looking at babysitting crafting: that would increase the workload tenfold).

If you don't want this grind, IMHO HL2RP isn't the best gamemode. It is too much based on items and you simply cannot trust your players due to all the player vs player conflict going on where people will abuse and exploit whatever they can if given the slightest chance to do so to get an edge. Or you get someone from another community who has no intention of playing by your rules, but will pretend he does to get away with as much abuse as he can.

It's a shame to see you don't trust your own player base, although I can appreciate the understanding as to why. I don't think you're necessarily correct in saying if we don't like this system then we should find another suitable outlet for Roleplay: There is no other server that I can ever remember RPing on being so heavily on grinding and attribute whoring. I've never felt like I had to rely on OOC sources and trash spawn locations so I had to run around and farm for a few hours every day like a chore, neither have I felt so baffled that I can't roleplay things my character should be able too based purely on the fact that I haven't performed some of these grinds. Items and scripts are important to HL2RP, that much I won't deny, and I actually think there is a charm to it; there's certainly something immersive about needing to go get food and water, or the importance of a gun item being hidden away in a fridge or something. But you said it yourself, some people will do anything to get an edge - and right now this is completely acceptable to them, there aren't any rules against it, and it's also incredibly easy to abuse the system you've worked tirelessly to make. That's why I suggested that perhaps the system should be lower down on the 'importance' scale for character development, but higher on the customisation scale. By this I mean more 'tools' that could benefit something you do when performing an act like syringes, or like, idk, jackhammer lol but without it handicapping at all someone's character as they've spent more time Roleplaying than grinding OOC attributes.

I also really like pineapple's suggestion though it does indeed depend on if the developers are willing to consider such changes, or take inspiration from at least some of them.
 
Sorry to say it, but I wouldn't trust half our playerbase (and 99% of the overal gmod community) any further than I can throw them. Just look at what happens when I allow people to freely crouch outside of their turn in TBC... they spam it to make themselves harder to hit in the most unrealistic way possible.

I mean, I am always open for suggestions for alternative systems. But keep in mind that trust isn't an option, neither is GM's babysitting people as they already are swarmed with requests (and just looking at babysitting crafting: that would increase the workload tenfold).

If you don't want this grind, IMHO HL2RP isn't the best gamemode. It is too much based on items and you simply cannot trust your players due to all the player vs player conflict going on where people will abuse and exploit whatever they can if given the slightest chance to do so to get an edge. Or you get someone from another community who has no intention of playing by your rules, but will pretend he does to get away with as much abuse as he can.

Hey chief, I agree with you on your first part there. Just take a peek at discord general chat and someone had a video of someone bunnyhopping across the map hungrily looking for trash spawns. But- that's the thing. There's too much focus on the script rather than the roleplay. The schema is awesome- But it should be there to provide comfort to the GMs and supplement the experience they provide, not to give players the sole focus of boosting their skills. Now- I'm not going to say delete the whole system and start making new things- There's a simple solution that I don't think anyone thought of.

Remove trash spawns.

Remove trash spawns, give GMs more tools via workshop- some training too while we are at it- and idk if that perk idea was approved but hey more the merrier.

Focus on GMs providing skill exp/items as rewards for their events. Your TBC system and RPG system is perfect for GMs to send small groups of players out into mini events almost like a traditional PnP. You get GMs making events that give character progression and RP for all sides- and you reduce the scriptplay. I call it a win win.
 
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