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Implemented Suggestion: Removal / Change of Dispensers

I usually fully support the idea of fostering RP between groups and prioritizing roleplay over mechanics whenever possible. However, the proposed changes seem to require more effort than the potential benefits might justify.

Stocking the Business:

Firstly, managing the stock in this manner could become tedious and detract from the roleplay experience. It risks making store RP feel more like a real-world job, which might diminish its appeal as a form of escape. The shop owner or manager would need to meticulously track employee activities and sales, potentially using spreadsheets or other out-of-character tools. This kind of micromanagement could break immersion, especially for players who signed up to engage in a bar or shop environment, rather than handle administrative tasks.

Additionally, the financial burden placed on the shop owner could hinder their ability to create engaging RP scenarios for others. The necessity to constantly reinvest earnings into supplies and business management may prevent them from initiating or supporting broader roleplay interactions. This could unintentionally create a more NPC-like environment for shopkeepers, as they would be preoccupied with maintaining stock levels and handling paperwork rather than engaging with other players.

For instance, a shop owner might want to hire a new player to clean the bar as a way to encourage them to return and build trust. Another example could be hiring a performer to entertain customers. However, in the initial stages of running a shop, these creative interactions might not be feasible due to financial constraints and the need to monitor employee trust, particularly under a system where there is little to prevent theft.

Active Stock in Containers:

I understand the distaste behind using the POS device and ordering system exclusively, but in my experience, running a business often involves more dynamic interactions. For example, we sought out better deals outside the standard CWU supplies, such as sourcing cheaper beer, acquiring drugs, or obtaining food items not provided by the CWU + a whole bunch of other shit.

On Industrial24, if you had inspected the containers in places like The Grotto or The Sinkhole when they were operational, you would have found them filled with items we sourced through player interactions, rather than relying solely on the CWU Ordering System. This allowed us to enrich our RP and that of others involved.

While the current system could certainly be adjusted to encourage more roleplay, the proposed changes might stifle the creative freedom that has defined past interactions. In the early stages, this could lead to a focus solely on business success, potentially at the expense of other roleplay opportunities.

Final Thoughts:

I understand that the CWU can sometimes feel like a real job, but shifting that responsibility to another group that may be less equipped to handle it won't resolve anything in the end. Instead, we should consider how to resolve this issue for everyone involved, ensuring that the experience remains enjoyable and immersive for all of us.
 
To play devil's advocate:

Firstly, managing the stock in this manner could become tedious and detract from the roleplay experience. It risks making store RP feel more like a real-world job, which might diminish its appeal as a form of escape. The shop owner or manager would need to meticulously track employee activities and sales, potentially using spreadsheets or other out-of-character tools. This kind of micromanagement could break immersion, especially for players who signed up to engage in a bar or shop environment, rather than handle administrative tasks.
You don't need to do any of that, just a rough idea of what sells and what doesn't, if someone wanted to use those tools to do so they could, but there'd be absolutely no need to do that.

Tedious, maybe, but I believe that thought is only fostered because it's become so engrained to be as easy as physically possible to have a store, people are too used to having a dispenser 90 degrees away from their sight to pull everything from.

Additionally, the financial burden placed on the shop owner could hinder their ability to create engaging RP scenarios for others. The necessity to constantly reinvest earnings into supplies and business management may prevent them from initiating or supporting broader roleplay interactions. This could unintentionally create a more NPC-like environment for shopkeepers, as they would be preoccupied with maintaining stock levels and handling paperwork rather than engaging with other players.
While I partially agree with this, I also don't. There is no financial burden, at least not in the mid-to-late stages of store ownership, stores are a conduit to essentially infinite money, with very little (stock prices and rent) to counteract that, additionally you'd still not be paying any more than normal, just paying it in a lump sum rather than item at a time, which yes may hinder things initially, but as I mentioned, this could open aspects to the MOC to give loans to counteract that.

Also I completely disagree with the notion that it'd hinder RP scenarios, store owners already have to reinvest their money into the store, that's how stores work. The only change is now it's done in bulk rather than individually, requiring a lump sum payment (see loans) None of this affects a store owner's ability to go out and RP as they desire, it just means a store needs to be engaging to ensure profits (Which is another issue many suffer from)
For instance, a shop owner might want to hire a new player to clean the bar as a way to encourage them to return and build trust. Another example could be hiring a performer to entertain customers. However, in the initial stages of running a shop, these creative interactions might not be feasible due to financial constraints and the need to monitor employee trust, particularly under a system where there is little to prevent theft.
Mitigated entirely by the suggestion of MOC loans, also I believe they do a grant system as well? Also in terms of theft, there's currently no way to steal things from stores anyway, unless you get your supplies from other sources anyway, so this way it would bring fully "legal" stores into the same bag as those being supplied by the owner or underground elements.
I understand the distaste behind using the POS device and ordering system exclusively, but in my experience, running a business often involves more dynamic interactions. For example, we sought out better deals outside the standard CWU supplies, such as sourcing cheaper beer, acquiring drugs, or obtaining food items not provided by the CWU + a whole bunch of other shit.

On Industrial24, if you had inspected the containers in places like The Grotto or The Sinkhole when they were operational, you would have found them filled with items we sourced through player interactions, rather than relying solely on the CWU Ordering System. This allowed us to enrich our RP and that of others involved.

While the current system could certainly be adjusted to encourage more roleplay, the proposed changes might stifle the creative freedom that has defined past interactions. In the early stages, this could lead to a focus solely on business success, potentially at the expense of other roleplay opportunities.
1st point:
that wouldn't change
2nd point:
this still wouldn't change, this only affects supplies bought from legal sources (stock)
3rd point:
I personally think that's a personal issue, if you struggle to maintain a free roleplaying experience because you have to bulk buy and store your goods, there's something else at play.

I understand that the CWU can sometimes feel like a real job, but shifting that responsibility to another group that may be less equipped to handle it won't resolve anything in the end. Instead, we should consider how to resolve this issue for everyone involved, ensuring that the experience remains enjoyable and immersive for all of us.
This has nothing really to do with the CWU, just a change to the way that stores operate, this is in no way shifting responsibility to store owners from the CWU, but rather increasing store owner's responsibilities to more than just pressing tab, left click and E to generate money
 
Under this system, large stores will need to keep inventory and track the sales of their employees which to me sounds a bit too close to being an actual job for RP on Gmod. The end result also wouldn't be realistic because most stores would have customers sending their money to the boss directly so that he can handle payroll at the end of the pay period. Under this, workers will have to log what they sell and be the ones giving the money that they owe to their boss rather than the other way around. If this can be resolved than I would understand this suggestion a bit more, otherwise this sounds like too big of a headache to facilitate good RP.


My biggest concern is this and the fact that the store owner will have to front all the costs of inventory, which is going to be really hard on new shops and also result in nobody ever having good stock on anything.
 
Hi! Being someone that spends a good amount of time in and around StoreRP I strongly stand against this. Our stores have personality and a large cast of characters that contribute to the environment and RP around them so I'm not sure I understand the sentiment that the current system is holding back people and making them feel like NPCs, though I have noticed that many players don't bother doing anything with their stores except standing around doing exactly what has been described above.

A change in mechanics is not going to do much to solve this. I feel this suggestion will make Store RP far more tedious. Spawning in items at the counter is a convenience so you don't have to interrupt RP by doing a light 5 minute jog to the warehouse.

Under this system, large stores will need to keep inventory and track the sales of their employees which to me sounds a bit too close to being an actual job for RP on Gmod. The end result also wouldn't be realistic because most stores would have customers sending their money to the boss directly so that he can handle payroll at the end of the pay period. Under this, workers will have to log what they sell and be the ones giving the money that they owe to their boss rather than the other way around. If this can be resolved than I would understand this suggestion a bit more, otherwise this sounds like too big of a headache to facilitate good RP.
Thank you for your opinions. As I did with one of the others, I will now play devil's advocate:

I disagree that the change of mechanics will not fix this, and also your point of jogging and interrupting RP is as a result of someone's inability to run a business properly, this should be taken IC, as the character, they have failed to properly stock their store, or opted to open it with limited stock, this should affect the store's credibility, and therefore carry effects onto the owner as reduced business.

Also the point about the workers is valid, though not strictly necessary, there's various ways to go around this, for example:
Let them keep the money they earn, rather than paying them a wage based on sales
There's no need to log things, but you can generate a rough amount based on how much money you had before and after you shift, while not fully accurate, it'd be close enough in order to avoid having to log every purchase.

Finally, and perhaps a controversial one, but are you not roleplaying having a job as a storeowner? Surely there should be immersive elements of store-ownership involved in that right? Rather than skipping all that mundane stuff in order to be convenient, it's part of the role you play, and especially in what was voted as a preference for a "hardcore" experience, store owners should have some level of strife, rather than just being able to generate money based on clicking a menu a few times
 
My biggest concern is this and the fact that the store owner will have to front all the costs of inventory, which is going to be really hard on new shops and also result in nobody ever having good stock on anything.
No one is going to have good stock on anything at the start of the arc anyway, stores will struggle, it's a given. And like I have suggested, loans are a way we can mitigate this
 
My biggest concern is this and the fact that the store owner will have to front all the costs of inventory, which is going to be really hard on new shops and also result in nobody ever having good stock on anything.
we were sent to an abandoned terminal with bare bones resources what are going to have at all
 
Store owner here, and the responses from other store owners here are actually kind of shocking to me.

This was already how slum stores used to work and was abandoned because it was interminably boring to have to walk back and forth to buy something every time anybody ordered anything. It did not result as you might think in people buying stock in advance like a real store would, it just added a lot of walking.
A change in mechanics is not going to do much to solve this. I feel this suggestion will make Store RP far more tedious. Spawning in items at the counter is a convenience so you don't have to interrupt RP by doing a light 5 minute jog to the warehouse.
The clear and obvious answer to this is to actually create a stock of items. If you're running to the warehouse for a single item every single time, then you're a bad store owner. You're inconveniencing your customers with your lack of preparedness, and are ICly punished for it. If you think you're going to sell 10 Breen Waters in a day, then buy a shipment of 10 Breen Waters from the CWU and put them in your store.
Firstly, managing the stock in this manner could become tedious and detract from the roleplay experience. It risks making store RP feel more like a real-world job, which might diminish its appeal as a form of escape. The shop owner or manager would need to meticulously track employee activities and sales, potentially using spreadsheets or other out-of-character tools. This kind of micromanagement could break immersion, especially for players who signed up to engage in a bar or shop environment, rather than handle administrative tasks.
Yes, this is exactly what I want. This is realistic RP. We have entire factions that do fictional paperwork (MOC, CCA, etc) and factions who kept massive spreadsheets of finances (Kaminkos). If this isn't what you find fun, then don't do it. Take the risks associated with not keeping spreadsheets, not monitoring stock, not watching your employees closely. Nobody says you have to do it. Just like as a cop you can choose to not follow protocol if you want, but you run the risk of punishment or worse.
Additionally, the financial burden placed on the shop owner could hinder their ability to create engaging RP scenarios for others. The necessity to constantly reinvest earnings into supplies and business management may prevent them from initiating or supporting broader roleplay interactions. This could unintentionally create a more NPC-like environment for shopkeepers, as they would be preoccupied with maintaining stock levels and handling paperwork rather than engaging with other players.
My biggest concern is this and the fact that the store owner will have to front all the costs of inventory, which is going to be really hard on new shops and also result in nobody ever having good stock on anything.
Which is why you
1. Take a risk with your own money, like any business owner
2. Take a loan from a legitimate source, like the MOC.
3. Take a loan from an illegitimate source, like a loan shark.


Right there, we have new RP opportunities. You know how there is basically zero crime aside from shooting cops? Number 3 now allows for actual mob gameplay. Another advantage to this system.

And I'm sorry, but no. Other shopkeepers, you shops were never engaging. There was never a difference on i24 between the Grotto or any other bar. There was nothing that made me want to go to one over the other. Which is why:
For instance, a shop owner might want to hire a new player to clean the bar as a way to encourage them to return and build trust. Another example could be hiring a performer to entertain customers.
You still have profit incentive to do this.
I understand the distaste behind using the POS device and ordering system exclusively, but in my experience, running a business often involves more dynamic interactions. For example, we sought out better deals outside the standard CWU supplies, such as sourcing cheaper beer, acquiring drugs, or obtaining food items not provided by the CWU + a whole bunch of other shit.

On Industrial24, if you had inspected the containers in places like The Grotto or The Sinkhole when they were operational, you would have found them filled with items we sourced through player interactions, rather than relying solely on the CWU Ordering System. This allowed us to enrich our RP and that of others involved.

While the current system could certainly be adjusted to encourage more roleplay, the proposed changes might stifle the creative freedom that has defined past interactions. In the early stages, this could lead to a focus solely on business success, potentially at the expense of other roleplay opportunities.
There is literally nothing in the proposed change that would cause this to stop. The CWU is not going to sell you boxes of drugs. Like was said in the OP, the CWU might jack up prices for you due to RP reasons. So you might try to source your goods elsewhere.
Massive +Support.
If you want the only active stores to continue to be bars, then deny this suggestion.
 
stores, first and foremost, should be used as a location that generates roleplay for the owner, employees and customers. this is something that has time and time failed again due to

1. a lack of creativity

and the root of the problem,

2. the current system

right now, you're a glorified vendor. no other way about it. you can cut it however you'd like, at the end of the day, you're a glorified npc. you can take a bit to order, you can have a quirky store, but your gameplay loop is the same. tab, order, go to a dispenser, charge, give the item to a customer. over and over. infinitely.

a lot of people, additionally, treat shop employees / owners as npcs. and for good reason. you basically are an npc with the current system. there's no risk, there's no reason for a customer to treat you as anything more than an npc vendor, there's no reason to go out of your way and do something unique. it all boils down to manning the counter, ordering through a dispenser and inevitably getting burnt out because everyone treats you like shit.

this suggestion won't fix it all, far from it, but it's a major step up.
 
Well, selling items is already an NPC activity. This just adds extra steps to it.

Plus... Taking out a loan is a bad idea imo.

As a former store owner, if I had to manage my store *and* the CMU I don't think I could've managed.
 
People shouldn't be managing stores and being employed at the same time anyway but that's just my opinion
 
Hi! Being someone that spends a good amount of time in and around StoreRP I strongly stand against this. Our stores have personality and a large cast of characters that contribute to the environment and RP around them so I'm not sure I understand the sentiment that the current system is holding back people and making them feel like NPCs, though I have noticed that many players don't bother doing anything with their stores except standing around doing exactly what has been described above.

A change in mechanics is not going to do much to solve this. I feel this suggestion will make Store RP far more tedious. Spawning in items at the counter is a convenience so you don't have to interrupt RP by doing a light 5 minute jog to the warehouse.

Under this system, large stores will need to keep inventory and track the sales of their employees which to me sounds a bit too close to being an actual job for RP on Gmod. The end result also wouldn't be realistic because most stores would have customers sending their money to the boss directly so that he can handle payroll at the end of the pay period. Under this, workers will have to log what they sell and be the ones giving the money that they owe to their boss rather than the other way around. If this can be resolved than I would understand this suggestion a bit more, otherwise this sounds like too big of a headache to facilitate good RP.

Noone is more dedicated to the storeRP bit than me. Descend from your highest horse and submit to me lowly Customer Service Clerk.
 
Everyone has varying opinions regarding stores and how they are viewed. Considering I've played through a few interactions of the various maps I'll give my two cents.

Stores are seen as glorified NPC vendors since the majority of the time someone walks up to the clerk and asks for item "X". Then the clerk buys it through the permit menu, does some roleplay to quantify its existence, and then interacts with the dispenser to retrieve the item then hands it over.

This doesn't go for all of the stores that I saw, but it is unfortunately the majority.

Some people bring up the point of "Why should I have physical stock, manage the stock and employees, et cetra" stores are able to employ multiple people to make the load easier and have it open during varying times of the server. It's not rocket science to manage what stock your store has. Even a layman could do it.

For me personally, I run a store on a Clockwork hl2rp server where I have actual physical stock and have no problem managing it and if in the event I run out of my stock, the shop's closed up for the day as I go and venture to the CWU to purchase said items. That's how it's been since the dawn of the game mode. I do admit that Willard does have a unique take on various systems, which is cool to see in this day and age.

Even on Willard, I ran a shop and a stall on different maps. I always attempted to have actual physical stock so I could realistically roleplay my position rather than blankly stare at the customer while I waited for the dispenser to spit out the item.

When it comes to the actual metrics of this suggestion, I agree with removing dispensers for stores since it is silly for me to walk into a store and then have no "stock" where all they do is pull it out of the near-omnipotent machine. This gives opportunities to both sides of the coin in terms of civi and rebel players on various factors that were mentioned by the OP along with other people who commented in this post and gave feedback on various factors.
 
Under this, workers will have to log what they sell and be the ones giving the money that they owe to their boss rather than the other way around.
I don't exactly know how you've ran your stores in the past however...

The PDA has a nifty system called "Lock ID Card.". Which will lock the CID to whoever binded their card to the device and nobody else can change it. If there is a worry about profits, your POS devices should all be binded to you, all profits go to you to in turn you can just divy out the money to employees and then buy more stock if need be.
 
As someone who likes running stores and have tried a few times with my only 2 successful stores on record being the Flying Dutchman on City 24 V3 (Willard V1) and The Casino on District Nine (Willard V2 era) of that one terminal map from before. Also ran a failed store on i24 due to a mix of IC and OOC issues

I will say the current store setup of having terminals in the stores defeats the whole point of how stores used to work in its early days when StoreRP as was at their peaks. The point was that each store had to keep a stock of goods and be prepared for day to day sales rather than rely solely on their own funds, the customers and a Amazon menu to buy/sell items to the populace. I preferred it much better when store ownership meant you had to actively manage a stock, have a max of 2 permits at the time and use other means to run a successful business that both Cps, Civs and Rebels all enjoyed.

While I won't say Dispensers led to the downfall of StoreRP, I will say it makes it more of Amazon store than anything else with a NPC behind the counter. BMDs have a lot of RP and all have limited stock options available to them, selling only whats on hand and not grabbing magic items from a invisible void. Stores do feel to many like glorified vendors at the moment. Just a player is the one selling you goods rather than pressing e on the vendor, but both may as well be the same given they function the exact same, just with extra steps.

Back when stock existed, restaurants had a reason to keep stock and cook food, ensuring they can make the food and drink on site without needing to send someone running out because they already had the stock they needed. Each day they stocked up and ensured they could run throughout the day and added a lot of RP, some waiting times for goods, setting dates for when you should come back next (e.g. pretending like you are hand sewing some clothing together), etc.

Clothing stores, food stores, tech and tool stores all thrived until they didn't. Dispenser does hold some of the blame for this, alongside the fact the Rebel economy became cheaper than every store ever- which is now being fixed in the new eco update and Bartering categories redone for store activity.

Stores are having a lot of work done this Arc, and I believe having dispensers not in stores, but instead more spread out is better. Just not locked down to CWU because keep in mind, Dispensers are also the only way to get your Apartment and Store keys, Vending keys and letters. So they will be needed in the City, just not in the stores themselves.

Also saves on edicts granting more performance and fits the atmosphere of the event arc.

Just my take and in short, I support the idea with some light modifications.
 
Stores are having a lot of work done this Arc, and I believe having dispensers not in stores, but instead more spread out is better. Just not locked down to CWU because keep in mind, Dispensers are also the only way to get your Apartment and Store keys, Vending keys and letters. So they will be needed in the City, just not in the stores themselves.
but in this case shop owners simply instead must run out of the store to the road in order to get your things you've ordered? that's still a amazon store, but with extra walking
if that is the case, why change anything at all?
 
Thats a really nice idea. It would make more RP possibilities, which is really nice! Imagine a crisis where store owners have beef with CWU. It would be crazy.
Also running a store would be way more realistic and fun. Having to actually buy stock and manage everything would make store gameplay way less boring then just standing still waiting for someone to buy something.
 
Just not locked down to CWU because keep in mind, Dispensers are also the only way to get your Apartment and Store keys, Vending keys and letters.
I dont know if it is possible, but maybe do a type of dispenser that only has the stock options, making it different then the ordinary dispenser would fix the issue?
 
Please do this so I can abuse poor store owners who cannot bare to lose even one Breen’s special water.
 
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