Do people actually dislike / hate current Shop system, and want it changed? (+ My thoughts on it)

[Bounter]

Howdy.

So, this not super large thread (maybe will be), is based on one suggestion by the man @Goulashnikov , who, I don't have anything against, but, who came up with a interesting talk, and idea in the Gear Wipe Thread... And it's regarding shops. Now, I will just quote him directly, since I cannot be fucked to write it up myself, so here it is:

Please also remove the instant item spawners in every store so there is more to running a store than just sitting there, taking a guy's tokens, and teleporting a Breen's Water into my shop. Have it so store owners have to buy items in bulk from the CWU. Put a bulk item spawner outside the CWU factory and make it so you have to then transport it to your shop.

I want to take risks, try to figure out what products sell the fastest, take inventory, run out of items naturally because I didn't plan ahead well enough, etc etc. ATM being a store owner is about as fun as being an NPC.

Will also make robbing or raiding stores for materials by rebels possible, as there is actual stuff to steal.

Also, some other quotes from other people, regarding this topic, in that same thread.

Unironically I have actually suggested this a few times, glad to see I'm not the only person with this mindset (By @Purple Knight )

Make a seperate suggestion for this, I want finite stocks and storage containers too. (By @Botulism )

no person want's to sit in store, acting like a NPC you interact with and forget about once you've gotten what you want from him

this simplistic form we currently have is so boring you've essentially shut the excitement out of this portion of the server which is actually essential, whether it be a restaurant or clothing shop, you'll sit there and hope you get people spending in your store to make rent for the week whilst a big ass box behind you gives you something immediately when you want it
The one Goulashnikov talks about (how i've interpreted it anyways) is a way that if you actually put some work in your store, do some planning and pay attention, you'll be rewarded with much more profits (it's not gonna be more expensive) and ofc it's going to be riskier but it's better that than what we currently have (By @Fallizs )

Now, from what I've personally gathered, here is what people, seem to want to change, and what they think is bad about it, alongside my problems with that which will be written in orange:

- Instant spawners remove need for planning and allow too easily to compensate for lack of stuff, having actual physical stuff would be more interesting and more overall realistic, alongside requiring more thought. - Instant spawners allowing to instantly compensate for lack of stuff is a good thing, since imagine you're 1 salt-pot down, well, now guy you making things for will have to wait 5-10 minutes, and while we all love to spend hours on Willard, nobody wanna wait that long for dam food. Also, just because it'd be cool and "realistic" doesn't mean it would actually be a good change. Realism / Hardcore = / = Good game design, not always anyway (PK for instance is a good designed one).

- Stocks to be smaller and actually able to be depleted more often and easily - That's, actually a reasonable one, since well, doubt Combine would provide SHIT TON of items, but, this could prove an issue, if stocks run out, but no CWU is on (which isn't uncommon), or nobody wants to do it.

- Improve RP so it's not just "You go in, buy shit, forget and get out" and instead actually more interactive on both sides. Basically, more deep interactions and less "NPC" behaviour. - I have problem with this, mainly because the whole "You interact with and forget about once you've gotten what you want from him" is literally HOW STORES ARE IN REAL LIFE. When you go into a fucking store, I highly doubt any of you, have chit-chat and conversations with cashiers / workers, you probably get in, and get out. Also, worth mentioning, cashiers / workers DO NOT WANT to talk to you about things that aren't like well, your shopping or where to find stuff, they don't wanna get to know you, they DO NOT CARE (Experience from observing + friends who worked at it). Also... Why is acting like an "NPC" bad? Like, everybody here hates "Main Character Syndrome" and if we're meant to be just grey, normal figures akin to HL2 citizens, I would argue it isn't bad.

Oh, and also, in real life you also sit in the store, behind counter etc. and wait for shit, so if anything, current system is more realistic than one they propose. Not everything in the server has to lead to deep fucking RP, going into the store to buy shit and get out, is grounded, makes sense, and is normal, so... I don't know why that's an issue suddenly.

Anyway-

Like from the few quotes I mentioned, and also seeing people checkmark (aka. agree), it seems like disliking current shop system isn't uncommon, it's not SUPER COMMON, but it's not rare either... And again, do you agree? Do you disagree? Do you think they got a point, or are you indiffirent?

Personally, a person that works as a chef and cashier at a store (Who does /me often with either pouring or handing stuff, cooking it behind doors etc.) I do not mind the current system. I don't need to learn people's names, past and shit when I work at a store, it's not part of my IC job, and I doubt they care too. So I feel like some stuff about current shop RP is overblown out of proportion GREATLY.

But once more, what do you all think?

 

[Goulashnikov]

Instant spawners allowing to instantly compensate for lack of stuff is a good thing, since imagine you're 1 salt-pot down, well, now guy you making things for will have to wait 5-10 minutes, and while we all love to spend hours on Willard, nobody wanna wait that long for dam food. Also, just because it'd be cool and "realistic" doesn't mean it would actually be a good change. Realism / Hardcore = / = Good game design, not always anyway (PK for instance is a good designed one).

This is on you as the store owner. If the instant spawners are removed, it is the responsibility of the store owner to keep track of his inventory so they are never lacking the required ingredients or stock needed for the day. If a store owner is constantly making you wait so they can go get one ingredient, then the character waiting for their food is likely going to ICly choose to eat at a store with a store owner who is better prepared.

Counterpoint: "It's not fun to keep track of stock."
Then don't do it. Nobody forces you to. But you're going to suffer the consequences of being unprepared.

- Stocks to be smaller and actually able to be depleted more often and easily - That's, actually a reasonable one, since well, doubt Combine would provide SHIT TON of items, but, this could prove an issue, if stocks run out, but no CWU is on (which isn't uncommon), or nobody wants to do it.

This is already an issue. I spent 2 weeks without lighters at my shop, and no amount of begging the CWU worked. However, this system may actually alleviate the problem, as the CWU can track orders to see what items are being requested the most, allowing them to prioritize those items at workshifts. This is how a command economy works in real life.

I have problem with this, mainly because the whole "You interact with and forget about once you've gotten what you want from him" is literally HOW STORES ARE IN REAL LIFE. When you go into a fucking store, I highly doubt any of you, have chit-chat and conversations with cashiers / workers, you probably get in, and get out. Also, worth mentioning, cashiers / workers DO NOT WANT to talk to you about things that aren't like well, your shopping or where to find stuff, they don't wanna get to know you, they DO NOT CARE (Experience from observing + friends who worked at it). Also... Why is acting like an "NPC" bad? Like, everybody here hates "Main Character Syndrome" and if we're meant to be just grey, normal figures akin to HL2 citizens, I would argue it isn't bad.

Why is giving me something to do in the downtime between customers a big deal? I wan't to go in the back and take stock, or do some paperwork. This system is just about improving passive RP. If what you say is true, then why not just change the model of the spawner to a player model and have permanently open stores with a literal NPC spawner that can give a player whatever they want?

Lack of passive means people don't wish to open stores, which means less open stores in general.

And yes, I do chat with cashiers. Both IRL and on the server. I'm a chatty guy. I like asking if its been busy, how their day is going, if they're looking forward to the weekend, etc.

 

[Botulism]

When you go into a fucking store, I highly doubt any of you, have chit-chat and conversations with cashiers / workers, you probably get in, and get out. Also, worth mentioning, cashiers / workers DO NOT WANT to talk to you about things that aren't like well, your shopping or where to find stuff,

The night before last night at Taco Bell I spoke Russian to a Ukrainian cashier and she made fun of me then I said 'slava ukrain geroyim slava' and she smiled, and then I like got her number and talked about old 70s soviet comedies. Disappointed though because no gay sex, but that's okay. You can't fuck guys everyday.

I disagreed with this post because while you really do show that you're interested in making a change (which I GREATLY respect), this post is not lively enough and it also goes against the already established cult of personality of @Goulashnikov . This is a roleplaying game, if you can't wait five minutes for some food and talk with the cashier who is a character WANTING to roleplay as a store owner by a person OOCly, you're not creative enough to be playing on this game, nuff said. Spark up some conversation, Hell, be antagonistic, complain about the wait, be an asshole, be nice, ask where the cashier is from, shit like that, that's fun.

Also, you totally should learn people's names IRL. When I was a cashier at a Kohl's store I learned so many people and their stories, and they loved coming to my line when I worked there. I had a lot of favorites, I could list them out below in another post just to show you how important this is not just in a game, but in real life retail and salesmanship too.

 

[nora]

You interact with and forget about once you've gotten what you want from him" is literally HOW STORES ARE IN REAL LIFE. When you go into a fucking store, I highly doubt any of you, have chit-chat and conversations with cashiers / workers, you probably get in, and get out. Also, worth mentioning, cashiers / workers DO NOT WANT to talk to you about things that aren't like well, your shopping or where to find stuff, they don't wanna get to know you, they DO NOT CARE (Experience from observing + friends who worked at it).

Also, just because it'd be cool and "realistic" doesn't mean it would actually be a good change.

just like you said it yourself, only because it'd be realistic doesn't mean it makes for a fun experience. it's also just... not true? i'm not sure what kind of life you live nor do i have a particular interest in it, but usually you make some small talk with a cashier or whoever's serving you. either way, i'm not going to debate about this because it isn't actually willard related.

simply put, having ic conversations can make for interesting scenarios down the line and add onto the experience in general. i'm not sure what's up with this anti roleplay attitude, considering that's what people are here for. for roleplay. to interact with other characters. store owners / employees are players, too, despite the system's many flaws.

Oh, and also, in real life you also sit in the store, behind counter etc. and wait for shit, so if anything, current system is more realistic than one they propose.

again, i'm going to quote you on this.

Not everything in the server has to lead to deep fucking RP, going into the store to buy shit and get out, is grounded, makes sense, and is normal, so... I don't know why that's an issue suddenly.

interacting with other characters isn't "deep roleplay", it's roleplay to begin with. being reduced to a glorified vendor npc is hardly roleplay.

Also... Why is acting like an "NPC" bad? Like, everybody here hates "Main Character Syndrome" and if we're meant to be just grey, normal figures akin to HL2 citizens, I would argue it isn't bad.

because you're... supposed to take initiative and do things on your own in a way that affects other players? yeah, main character syndrome sucks ass and people who have it are not fun to be around, but wanting more avenues for store roleplay is hardly main character syndrome. we're all players here, we all signed up to write stories for our characters. wanting that isn't mcs.

 

[Botulism]

The night before last night at Taco Bell I spoke Russian to a Ukrainian cashier and she made fun of me then I said 'slava ukrain geroyim slava' and she smiled, and then I like got her number and talked about old 70s soviet comedies. Disappointed though because no gay sex, but that's okay. You can't fuck guys everyday.

I disagreed with this post because while you really do show that you're interested in making a change (which I GREATLY respect), this post is not lively enough and it also goes against the already established cult of personality of @Goulashnikov . This is a roleplaying game, if you can't wait five minutes for some food and talk with the cashier who is a character WANTING to roleplay as a store owner by a person OOCly, you're not creative enough to be playing on this game, nuff said. Spark up some conversation, Hell, be antagonistic, complain about the wait, be an asshole, be nice, ask where the cashier is from, shit like that, that's fun.

Also, you totally should learn people's names IRL. When I was a cashier at a Kohl's store I learned so many people and their stories, and they loved coming to my line when I worked there. I had a lot of favorites, I could list them out below in another post just to show you how important this is not just in a game, but in real life retail and salesmanship too.

MARINA -- First I thought she was rather rude, imagine this curly, white-haired old Moldovan lady in a coat coming up to you with a grocery cart full of shit and meticulously arguing about prices in her Eastern European accent. She'd pull out her glasses and take out her calculator to argue discounts, and I'd spend like five minutes explaining to her that the discount takes off the total amount, not off of every item. She told me happily how she was a mathematician and she knew what she was talking about..And I mean, SHE DID, but she just didn't understand the discounting system here.

We got to know each other, I'd carry her groceries out for her and the first thing she asked me was what type of Christian I was, she thought I was a pentecostal LOL. Then I found out about where she was from, and we talked about her family..Her father actually worked at the Soviet Embassy in Turkey back in the 60s-70s, and I surprised her with a few words of Turkish. From that moment on, she became one of the favorite people I saw there, always telling me stories about her time in the USSR and spending summers in Istanbul. I miss working there because of the people I encountered, honestly.


CHARLOTTE -- one of the cashiers who worked with me, this old 70-something Appalachian southern grandma who was one of the funniest women I've ever met, the amount of dirty jokes that this lady told is off the charts. She told me that once she became 50, she started counting back until she reached 30, then she started counting forward again, so actually she was only 32 in her eyes. She once told me the dirtiest joke about a guy wanting to lose weight, but I couldn't tell it here.

 

[Purple Knight]

- Stocks to be smaller and actually able to be depleted more often and easily - That's, actually a reasonable one, since well, doubt Combine would provide SHIT TON of items, but, this could prove an issue, if stocks run out, but no CWU is on (which isn't uncommon), or nobody wants to do it.

I won't bother commenting on any of the other points as others have already said pretty much what I would say anyway, however I will comment on this one as someone in the know:

We (The terminal, the CWU) will more likely than not be on restricted stocks anyway, due to both the arc and the economy rework, so similarly to the debt arc, where certain stocks too a while to be refilled, this will very likely be a thing on the new map, especially from the start.

This time it won't be a case of CWU not stocking certain things due to being busy or said item being low priority, but rather generalised stock shortages, possibly causing various economic consequences, though this is as intended for the poorly supplied terminal we will be in

 

[Overseer Inspector Count Reece Orlok]

Mr House here

I have problem with this, mainly because the whole "You interact with and forget about once you've gotten what you want from him" is literally HOW STORES ARE IN REAL LIFE. When you go into a fucking store, I highly doubt any of you, have chit-chat and conversations with cashiers / workers, you probably get in, and get out. Also, worth mentioning, cashiers / workers DO NOT WANT to talk to you about things that aren't like well, your shopping or where to find stuff, they don't wanna get to know you, they DO NOT CARE (Experience from observing + friends who worked at it). Also... Why is acting like an "NPC" bad? Like, everybody here hates "Main Character Syndrome" and if we're meant to be just grey, normal figures akin to HL2 citizens, I would argue it isn't bad.

Oh, and also, in real life you also sit in the store, behind counter etc. and wait for shit, so if anything, current system is more realistic than one they propose. Not everything in the server has to lead to deep fucking RP, going into the store to buy shit and get out, is grounded, makes sense, and is normal, so... I don't know why that's an issue suddenly.

This is a completely biased view, I have met plenty of people in real life who love to talk to the cashiers and workers, just because you don't doesn't mean others don't. But, even if we did keep it more "realistic", I don't care, I want characters to converse, I want characters to exchange dialogue, create RP, create relationships, and more importantly create tension.

I also don't really understand the part of "Why is acting like an NPC bad?".... Like, is that seriously a question you have to ask us? You've got two sides of the fence, main character syndrome, and NPC syndrome. You're point is there's no middle ground(?) when there is, you just act realistic, that's all, it's not really a hard concept or thing to do. If your character gets punched in the gut you'll be expected to become winded. If you're about to be amputated you're expected to show even a hint of fear or fright. There is a middle ground, there is a place you can own a store and not be an NPC, it's just that nobody wants to try it because the current system actively promotes NPC behaviour.

 

[Fredemund]

Yeah I hate capitalism, bring back bartering

 

[Botulism]

Yeah I hate capitalism, bring back bartering

 

[Bounter]

The night before last night at Taco Bell I spoke Russian to a Ukrainian cashier and she made fun of me then I said 'slava ukrain geroyim slava' and she smiled, and then I like got her number and talked about old 70s soviet comedies. Disappointed though because no gay sex, but that's okay. You can't fuck guys everyday.

I disagreed with this post because while you really do show that you're interested in making a change (which I GREATLY respect), this post is not lively enough and it also goes against the already established cult of personality of @Goulashnikov . This is a roleplaying game, if you can't wait five minutes for some food and talk with the cashier who is a character WANTING to roleplay as a store owner by a person OOCly, you're not creative enough to be playing on this game, nuff said. Spark up some conversation, Hell, be antagonistic, complain about the wait, be an asshole, be nice, ask where the cashier is from, shit like that, that's fun.

Also, you totally should learn people's names IRL. When I was a cashier at a Kohl's store I learned so many people and their stories, and they loved coming to my line when I worked there. I had a lot of favorites, I could list them out below in another post just to show you how important this is not just in a game, but in real life retail and salesmanship too.

I agree, but to talk about final part. Where I live, people just dont chat with strangers, just in general, especially cashiers and other shop owners, at least where I LIVE neither side wants to waste time on it.

I guess living in this shithole called Poland is the reason lmao

 

[Marshall]

In it's current form...

The shop system is basic and I found it easy to serve many customers in quick succession unless something was out of stock from the city stock count. I remember when literally everything was out of stock and my store couldn't function, but I believe that was due to a bug of sorts.

So many stores had to adapt in that respect and I had @FieldersNL as a cook and worked alongside @Rabithunter on Industrial 24 before I went onto my own store on C8, Which again was a success to a degree, before @albertossic decided he'd up my rent to 1000 out of spite which was funny and I didn't notice for a while until I came to pay it. MOC Hijinks.

But, it'd be nice to be able to take stock counts and order deliveries for the day based on customer trends. However, I imagine if we do that, we're going to have quite a few Containers and I don't think it'd be viable having TONS of containers, that is unless Large Containers had an increase in slot size or otherwise so then each shop didn't have 10+ containers as I can foresee happening if we start having shops stock up on supplies.

But that's my take.