The S2K Disaster

[MCG]

Your Steam Name: MCGSCEFFAAWHETJH55555
Your SteamID: STEAM_0:0:33130062

Their Steam Name(s): Divine, Taliazure
Their SteamID('s): No idea.
Do you know their Discord or Forum name(s)?: The same as Steam Names.
Why are you reporting this player?: I was responding to Deacon's cries for help because he was being attacked by someone we had let go just a bit earlier for trying to rob my character. When we caught up, we were told to stop by the GM, who then declared it to be an S2K even thought there were 4 players involved, one of whom was disabled, and out of the two fighting Talia's character, only Crash had a gun. I was getting prepared to do S2RP so when S2K kicked in. The event specifically mentioned that Talia's character was trying to escape/run away, but when we were given the green light to move, she instead shot at us all. Crash was sprayed down and I was about to type a /me to pull Deacon away when I was sprayed. I ran away as she gave chase or camped nearby, trying to find shelter in my base. She jumped me from behind with automatic fire to the point where I had 5-10 HP, so I had to pull my gun out so that I could attempt to *not* die. I hate S2K and I've outlined as much in several posts over the years as well as the @ command. I pulled out my shotgun and got jumped with a flashbang and more gunfire as soon as I left, which would've happened anyway if I didn't have a weapon based on what had happened before. I obviously died because I have 300+ ping and a shit computer, so there was no way I was beating anyone at S2K.

What I find confusing is why S2K was declared all of a sudden, without any player input, because that directly caused all the subsequent events to not make sense. Both Talia and I were jumping and running like idiots playing a shooter as opposed to acting like our characters would, and if her character was apparently bloodthirsty enough to shoot unarmed people, I don't understand why I didn't get PKed. Nothing about it made sense. I discussed the scenario after the fact and I've been advised differently by two different staff members with regards to the rules. Divine tells me S2K can happen against unarmed people, while Robert apparently says it is purely S2RP, so I don't know what I'm supposed to believe.



I made this report because I would prefer a clear-cut answer on when we can decide on S2K/S2RP and whether one can S2K against an unarmed person according to the rules. This S2K encounter killed any desire for me to play on Main. I explicitly rejoined after 2 years because I heard S2RP was taking over from the old S2K days, only to get forced into an S2K encounter and obviously losing. I'm not so much bummed about the loss of gear or about possible PKs, but entrusting so much into an encounter that relies on ping, connection speed, good specs, etc is just absolutely terrible. If the GM at least outlined the option of whether we could pick between S2K and S2RP (and based on having read recent PK appeals, I was under the impression we would be given that choice), then it would have determined my involvement in that event.



Evidence to support your reasoning (Evidence must be clear and it could be logs, pictures or video): I didn't take any pictures but this report isn't about refuting any existing facts. Everything should be in the server logs. I'm just confused about the decisions made and the rules referred to.

Names of witnesses that can provide extra feedback on this case?: boots and Vaher Nitsen were probably spectating. Silta and (whoever plays Crash) were involved in the event itself.

 

[Divine]

This should probably be moved into the complaints thread or abuse reports thread because literally nobody can read player reports. The category should be fixed, but no one can view this as it stands.

 

[Divine]

I discussed the scenario after the fact and I've been advised differently by two different staff members with regards to the rules. Divine tells me S2K can happen against unarmed people, while Robert apparently says it is purely S2RP, so I don't know what I'm supposed to believe.

View attachment 45010

I made this report because I would prefer a clear-cut answer on when we can decide on S2K/S2RP and whether one can S2K against an unarmed person according to the rules.

I’ll be frank and say that I don’t always recommend consulting staff if you have not read the rules prior. You should read the guidelines as listed, then seek out staff for elaboration; however, it is made clear with an added clarification that:

CQC is defined as combat where an unarmed/melee user initiates combat against another character regardless of what they are using. This will FORCE S2RP.

Contrariwise, if the gun user initiates combat against an unarmed/melee user it does not need to be forced into S2RP and will thereby default to S2K. If the person with the gun opens fire in a situation that has not yet begun, or is imminent to be resolved through S2K, they would not be in the wrong.

 

[Divine]

Oh and for good measure I’ll just make sure they get that juicy forums ping…

@Taliazure @VaherNitsen @boots @Acheif @atlassu @Silta @Robert @Hayden

 

[Taliazure]

Hey, just to clarify a few things since it seems like stuff is being taken out of context, especially with that image.


The "massacre" reference was about the CCR 1v10 situation. I followed that up by asking @Hayden why OTA never came from me in City 8. So, letting That be known, no bad faith here. Hayden can back this up and even provide a screenshot of the rest of the conversation above that message.


As for the S2K situation: the two people directly involved were both armed. You were in the back, out of the immediate conflict, and you weren't included until you decided to engage by helping Deacon. That’s why you were shot. I was fighting the girl and Deacon, but once I saw you moving in and recognized Beau, I assumed you might also be armed, so I took action to neutralize a possible threat.


S2K was requested and accepted. You weren’t part of it initially neither where you part of the s2rp, only when S2K was declared and you joined in by standing across the street on the doorway staring as I shot everyone, you effectively became involved by walking up to a live gunfight situation where two people had just been shot dead infront of you... Not very smart. If you didn’t want to be part of it, walking away would’ve been the right move.


Divine also made it clear in orange text through /events that S2K had started.


Regarding the PK: I honestly don’t know why you chose to PK yourself. I never wanted to PK’d anyone, specifically requested that no one be PK’d. When the admins asked if they could bandage everyone, I said absolutely. I’m not trying to kill off anyone’s character. I’m just playing a bad guy doing bad guy things, creating tension, good RP, and those high-stakes moments. Not trying to grief or force PKS, unless someone breaks rules or acts in bad faith, then the context might change.


Hope that clears things up.

Edit: it was only after I saw you open your door and go inside and still you hadn't shot me did I realize you were unarmed, but that point I knew perfectly you were gonna grab your gun, grab armor, come out to blast me, so my only choice was waiting to get you out of combat too, leave everyone hurt and make my escape to ensure no one could come after me into the sewers without being at serious risk of death.

 

[VaherNitsen]

Oke.
I'm here now.
I don't much know what to add here, so...

I'll just say what I personally would have done in this situation as Taliazure:

Due to the circumstances of the situation, and regarding the gear disparity, I personally would have gunned down anyone with a firearm that pursued me.
Beyond that, I would have just fled.

Now. One could argue that Talia acted in 'Bad Faith', but the information they had to go off of did not imply that any of the parties were unarmed.
Now... them camping the door once MCG's character had fled into a safe spot could be seen in poor taste, and I personally frown at that decision as well, but as the situation went as it did, MCG's character remained a valid combatant due to the circumstances. I'm not saying I support Talia's decision to hold the doorway, but I'm also not saying there's anything that disallows it in this particular context.

Rulewise- to address the following...

S2K was declared all of a sudden, without any player input

S2K was declared in a '/localevent', as S2K is the default for all combat engagements on server. The option to declare it in this situation makes sense for that reason, but I do also agree S2RP would have likely been a better option here.
It's also very possible Divine expected Talia's character to flee the area once the bullets started flying. I know that there was a very low chance of any malicious intent from his end.

Right- beyond that, all I can say is that unless S2RP was requested by yourself or another player and disregarded, there's nothing here from what I can see that is truly problematic.

And, as a final point to add:

a clear-cut answer on when we can decide on S2K/S2RP and whether one can S2K against an unarmed person according to the rules.

@Acheif (I think that's Crash) was armed, as was @Taliazure . Due to this, despite your involvement as an unarmed individual as primarily non-combative, your effect on the decision was likely not considered as you were not there to fight.

I agree that S2RP would have been better, but, it was just poor circumstance.
That is all.
Be kind.
Please be well, please be safe.

 

[MCG]

Hey, just to clarify a few things since it seems like stuff is being taken out of context, especially with that image.


The "massacre" reference was about the CCR 1v10 situation. I followed that up by asking @Hayden why OTA never came from me in City 8. So, letting That be known, no bad faith here. Hayden can back this up and even provide a screenshot of the rest of the conversation above that message.


As for the S2K situation: the two people directly involved were both armed. You were in the back, out of the immediate conflict, and you weren't included until you decided to engage by helping Deacon. That’s why you were shot. I was fighting the girl and Deacon, but once I saw you moving in and recognized Beau, I assumed you might also be armed, so I took action to neutralize a possible threat.


S2K was requested and accepted. You weren’t part of it initially neither where you part of the s2rp, only when S2K was declared and you joined in by standing across the street on the doorway staring as I shot everyone, you effectively became involved by walking up to a live gunfight situation where two people had just been shot dead infront of you... Not very smart. If you didn’t want to be part of it, walking away would’ve been the right move.


Divine also made it clear in orange text through /events that S2K had started.


Regarding the PK: I honestly don’t know why you chose to PK yourself. I never wanted to PK’d anyone, specifically requested that no one be PK’d. When the admins asked if they could bandage everyone, I said absolutely. I’m not trying to kill off anyone’s character. I’m just playing a bad guy doing bad guy things, creating tension, good RP, and those high-stakes moments. Not trying to grief or force PKS, unless someone breaks rules or acts in bad faith, then the context might change.


Hope that clears things up.

Edit: it was only after I saw you open your door and go inside and still you hadn't shot me did I realize you were unarmed, but that point I knew perfectly you were gonna grab your gun, grab armor, come out to blast me, so my only choice was waiting to get you out of combat too, leave everyone hurt and make my escape to ensure no one could come after me into the sewers without being at serious risk of death.

I didn't want to be a part of the *fight*. I was just trying to pull Deacon away but you hadn't let me act. Your character was stated in the event to have been in the middle of *running away*, so why did initiating S2K mean that your character suddenly had a change of heart to kill everyone?

I'm not refuting that Divine said the event was S2K. I'm saying that him declaring that without our input was sudden, and I feel it was inappropriate for the situation since it wasn't like they were dealing with multiple people like the recent expos.

I *was* running away to a point of safety but you did *not* stop shooting me even as the door shut and I cowered in the back. You just kept holding the weapon down until it was empty and the damage logs would prove as much. You were out to kill my character regardless of weapon. If I was getting involved in the fight, I wouldn't have run away from you but you still went after me.

I decided on the PK because I had returned to Main under the hopes that the supposedly new S2RP polices had gotten rid of most S2K instances, so to get stuck in that kind of situation killed my interest entirely. Our situation does not make sense from an IC standpoint: you shot our characters but you let them live because... why? Why would your *character* think that's a good idea?

I did not make this report to refute the S2K or the PK. I made the report because I don't understand why S2K was chosen and decided on before any of us could set our input or agree/disagree, and I don't understand why your character decided to stay and fight instead of run like the /event dictated. It's like your actions entirely changed just because you saw the /event was to be an S2K one.

I have *always* been vocal in my hate for S2K. I did not want to have to fight you but you were waiting outside my door and I was almost dead. I had to come outside with armor and a gun in case you were waiting for me and you were. I was just going to help Deacon and Crash out after you'd downed them.

EDIT: Also, to clarify on the 'our characters were not making sense' part, I had a seriously hard time reconciling the aforementioned actions, and the fact that we were shooting, jumping off balconies, running back into the fight, into each other's weapons etc with what our characters would/should/could realistically do. Nothing made sense to me in a logical way so there was nothing I could roleplay to make it work. How was I supposed to continue under these circumstances where so many nonsensical events had happened as a compromise for S2K gameplay?

 

[MCG]

Oke.
I'm here now.
I don't much know what to add here, so...

I'll just say what I personally would have done in this situation as Taliazure:

Due to the circumstances of the situation, and regarding the gear disparity, I personally would have gunned down anyone with a firearm that pursued me.
Beyond that, I would have just fled.

Now. One could argue that Talia acted in 'Bad Faith', but the information they had to go off of did not imply that any of the parties were unarmed.
Now... them camping the door once MCG's character had fled into a safe spot could be seen in poor taste, and I personally frown at that decision as well, but as the situation went as it did, MCG's character remained a valid combatant due to the circumstances. I'm not saying I support Talia's decision to hold the doorway, but I'm also not saying there's anything that disallows it in this particular context.

Rulewise- to address the following...

S2K was declared in a '/localevent', as S2K is the default for all combat engagements on server. The option to declare it in this situation makes sense for that reason, but I do also agree S2RP would have likely been a better option here.
It's also very possible Divine expected Talia's character to flee the area once the bullets started flying. I know that there was a very low chance of any malicious intent from his end.

Right- beyond that, all I can say is that unless S2RP was requested by yourself or another player and disregarded, there's nothing here from what I can see that is truly problematic.

And, as a final point to add:

@Acheif (I think that's Crash) was armed, as was @Taliazure . Due to this, despite your involvement as an unarmed individual as primarily non-combative, your effect on the decision was likely not considered as you were not there to fight.

I agree that S2RP would have been better, but, it was just poor circumstance.
That is all.
Be kind.
Please be well, please be safe.

That first part would've been fine, but it was the other way around. Talia's character with the gun was chasing me, an unarmed individual. If I was involved in S2K, I would've stayed to fight, not run away or try to pull someone out of the fight.

Also, yes, that was the problem. We were not given the *choice* of picking S2RP vs S2K. It was decided for us in a matter of a couple minutes, and there was no indication we were allowed to *ask* for such a thing. If we were permitted to, and I assumed we would since I had read one of the recent PK appeals where all involved were allowed to *choose*, then it would have been a different story but our input was ignored. I even asked about why S2K was chosen in @ and it took several minutes *after* the gunfight for it to be addressed.

I still don't get why Talia's character decided to do the opposite of what her character's final S2RP post was, just for S2K purposes. It does not add up to me. If she was supposed to run, then she should've, not turned on a dime to go Terminator on us.

 

[Taliazure]

I understand your confusion, and I’m happy to clear it up.

I wasn’t running away, I was repositioning. Being in a narrow alleyway put me at a serious disadvantage, it was a kill zone. So I moved to a more open area where I’d have the upper hand and force you all to funnel through the alley instead. That’s just basic tactics.

From the start, my plan was to throw a grenade, create distance, and continue engaging strategically, whether it was S2K or not. So no, I wasn’t fleeing the fight, I was fighting smart. If I had left you all alive, you would’ve regrouped and come after me. So when you ask, “Why shoot us and not flee?" I genuinely find that a strange question...

There were three capable individuals involved, any one of whom could’ve become a threat again. One of you, unarmed at the time, had already made it back to a base and could've rearmed. Your character wasn’t down, so retreating could’ve allowed you to gear up, heal the others, and launch a manhunt. That’s why I waited and pretended to have run off, using a flashbang to surprise your character or any other of your group who could come to aid, in case you returned armed. It’s just survival, leaving you all too injured to even think to come after me and disarmed was the best outcome.


Now, as for the PK question: that’s an OOC concern. I had no intention of forcing a PK on anyone. Sure, I’ll kill your character in RP if it makes sense, but I’m not out to make someone lose their character permanently. If anything, I’d request NLR with a refund, your character forgets mine and doesn’t recognize my face, which would be reasonable, but since I was wearing a gas mask not needed at all.

Forcing a PK or NLR on you would actually go against my goal: to create meaningful RP and an ongoing conflict between our characters. I’m playing an antagonist, not a griefer. I want tension, story, not to shut down your character’s arc.


Edit: plus... Dude come on... Do I really have to explain this to you? You made yourself a target the moment you entered a active shooting situation and showed you were there to help the opposite side.
If anything you completely disregarded the safety of your own character and got shocked when you got shot to shit for being mistaken as one of the defending armed perpetrators, then followed with being recognized and neutralized so you can't be a threat.
It's... Simple.. Walk... Away... Next time.

 

[MCG]

I understand your confusion, and I’m happy to clear it up.

I wasn’t running away, I was repositioning. Being in a narrow alleyway put me at a serious disadvantage, it was a kill zone. So I moved to a more open area where I’d have the upper hand and force you all to funnel through the alley instead. That’s just basic tactics.

From the start, my plan was to throw a grenade, create distance, and continue engaging strategically, whether it was S2K or not. So no, I wasn’t fleeing the fight, I was fighting smart. If I had left you all alive, you would’ve regrouped and come after me. So when you ask, “Why shoot us and not flee?" I genuinely find that a strange question...

There were three capable individuals involved, any one of whom could’ve become a threat again. One of you, unarmed at the time, had already made it back to a base and could've rearmed. Your character wasn’t down, so retreating could’ve allowed you to gear up, heal the others, and launch a manhunt. That’s why I waited and pretended to have run off, using a flashbang to surprise your character or any other of your group who could come to aid, in case you returned armed. It’s just survival, leaving you all too injured to even think to come after me and disarmed was the best outcome.


Now, as for the PK question: that’s an OOC concern. I had no intention of forcing a PK on anyone. Sure, I’ll kill your character in RP if it makes sense, but I’m not out to make someone lose their character permanently. If anything, I’d request NLR with a refund, your character forgets mine and doesn’t recognize my face, which would be reasonable, but since I was wearing a gas mask not needed at all.

Forcing a PK or NLR on you would actually go against my goal: to create meaningful RP and an ongoing conflict between our characters. I’m playing an antagonist, not a griefer. I want tension, story, not to shut down your character’s arc.

I can understand repositioning, I just don't understand why it suddenly translated into a proper gunfight instead of running and hiding like the /event and /me were stating/implying (in that order, I believe?). I won't pretend to know what goes through your character's head, but it seemed like a change in motivations.

As for the PK thing, I'd rather you'd have done so, because it just doesn't seem right to have it done as-is. Either you're not into killing enough that you would've given up the fight before it even began, or you would start the fight and finish what you started. The inbetween just didn't work and I couldn't even brainstorm any plan to justify that or any subsequent character behaviors. It would sound absolutely ridiculous if I had a conversation about this later in-character, and I said something like "She shot me super hard but she left me alive tho". It's a lot of compromise for gameplay. I'll take hits if the plot demands it, but S2K was just incredibly unfair. I would've willingly died if you won that Mexican standoff we did for S2RP earlier, that's just who I am. It would make more sense to me that way.

I'm not accusing you of being an asshole or something but I'm having trouble trying to make the roleplay 'facts' work with our 'portrayal' of the battle. S2RP would've been a lot less messy, and I would've jumped on that option in a heartbeat since I knew we had a super cool encounter just before.

To clarify on that first part: I know you're telling me right now that she was not running away, but if that's the case, why write it as if she was? It was her last move in S2RP, and the /event seemed to support that interpretation.

 

[Taliazure]

From your perspective, it probably looked like my character was running away based on the last S2RP emote and the /event. But that was intentional. The goal wasn’t to flee, it was to reposition and bait you into thinking she was fleeing. I wanted you to follow, creating an opportunity to turn the tables with a grenade and a better line of fire. It was a tactical move, and from my character’s perspective, it was a smart way to stay alive and not just die in a tight alley.

It’s not about rewriting motivations mid-scene—it’s more about deception. The emotes you saw were what your character was supposed to perceive: someone fleeing till they stopped seeing that someone behind a wall. What actually happened was a calculated ambush. That’s a fair and valid approach in S2K or S2rp, "sometimes the best way to win is to let the other side misread your intentions..."
Sun tzu - somewhere sometime before christ

As for the PK: I respect your view on that, and I genuinely hear your frustration. But I also hope you can see where I’m coming from. I didn’t go into this trying to erase someone’s character. My intention was never to force a permanent consequence, just to create a tense, meaningful encounter. I’ve never had an issue with a PK if the stakes are right, but in this case, I wanted to preserve your character because I think the story is better with ongoing tension and rivalry.

You mentioned that the middle ground felt awkward that either it should've ended in death or never escalated in the first place. That’s fair, but I think this is where RP has to allow for nuance. There’s nothing inherently wrong with a character shooting someone and leaving them alive, especially when it leaves room for more RP. Whether you got treated by someone, managed to crawl to safety, or were found by CMRU, that’s part of your story to fill in. And I get that you feel that’s “gameplay compromise,” but sometimes that’s just what good RP is, leaving space for others to interpret and build on...
So it's not our problem...

I don’t expect you to feel satisfied with how S2K played out, but I prefer s2k because as much as I also love s2rp I do not wish to sit 5 hours rping a gunfight when it includes more than 2-3 people no thank you... Had enough of that specially at 4 am. You say you'd have accepted a loss in S2RP, and that’s cool, I respect that. But in the heat of the moment, I played the fight the way my character would, while still trying to avoid permanent consequences for yours.

Lastly, I do want to push back a little on the idea that it’s on me to make your story make sense afterward. That part is up to you. If your character survived, then make it work... build something from it.
..
Say the shots missed vitals. Say a passerby saved you. Say CMRU pulled you from the brink. You have the space to create, and that’s part of the fun of RP.

Whether it’s S2RP or S2K, the point was never to end your character’s arc, it was to complicate it. If that didn’t land for you, I understand. But I hope you can see that it was all done in the interest of story, not ego

 

[MCG]

From your perspective, it probably looked like my character was running away based on the last S2RP emote and the /event. But that was intentional. The goal wasn’t to flee, it was to reposition and bait you into thinking she was fleeing. I wanted you to follow, creating an opportunity to turn the tables with a grenade and a better line of fire. It was a tactical move, and from my character’s perspective, it was a smart way to stay alive and not just die in a tight alley.

It’s not about rewriting motivations mid-scene—it’s more about deception. The emotes you saw were what your character was supposed to perceive: someone fleeing till they stopped seeing that someone behind a wall. What actually happened was a calculated ambush. That’s a fair and valid approach in S2K or S2rp, "sometimes the best way to win is to let the other side misread your intentions..."
Sun tzu - somewhere sometime before christ

As for the PK: I respect your view on that, and I genuinely hear your frustration. But I also hope you can see where I’m coming from. I didn’t go into this trying to erase someone’s character. My intention was never to force a permanent consequence, just to create a tense, meaningful encounter. I’ve never had an issue with a PK if the stakes are right, but in this case, I wanted to preserve your character because I think the story is better with ongoing tension and rivalry.

You mentioned that the middle ground felt awkward that either it should've ended in death or never escalated in the first place. That’s fair, but I think this is where RP has to allow for nuance. There’s nothing inherently wrong with a character shooting someone and leaving them alive, especially when it leaves room for more RP. Whether you got treated by someone, managed to crawl to safety, or were found by CMRU, that’s part of your story to fill in. And I get that you feel that’s “gameplay compromise,” but sometimes that’s just what good RP is, leaving space for others to interpret and build on...
So it's not our problem...

I don’t expect you to feel satisfied with how S2K played out, but I prefer s2k because as much as I also love s2rp I do not wish to sit 5 hours rping a gunfight when it includes more than 2-3 people no thank you... Had enough of that specially at 4 am. You say you'd have accepted a loss in S2RP, and that’s cool, I respect that. But in the heat of the moment, I played the fight the way my character would, while still trying to avoid permanent consequences for yours.

Lastly, I do want to push back a little on the idea that it’s on me to make your story make sense afterward. That part is up to you. If your character survived, then make it work... build something from it.
..
Say the shots missed vitals. Say a passerby saved you. Say CMRU pulled you from the brink. You have the space to create, and that’s part of the fun of RP.

Whether it’s S2RP or S2K, the point was never to end your character’s arc, it was to complicate it. If that didn’t land for you, I understand. But I hope you can see that it was all done in the interest of story, not ego

I suppose I just don't understand why a character would shoot and then leave someone alive. When you resort to shooting, you generally want the other person to die. That's just how guns work. There's no warning shots or bullshit like that: when you bring out a gun, you shoot to kill (and no, I don't mean S2K as in how roleplay gamemodes interpret it, more like how they tend to be utilized in realistic terms).

I don't know how late it was for you but S2RP was *built* for smaller groups like ours. There were only 3 of us that were active, unless Deacon wanted to keep using his turn dying on the floor. I don't think that would've taken as many hours as you said. Maybe just the one hour, considering the circumstances of our gear/involvement/motivations. It compromises a lot less, and it's less reliant on each player's specs and systems. It's a roleplay gamemode at heart, so I don't see why we suddenly have to play like it's PVP.

I will agree it is up to me to make the story make sense, but my point is that I could *not*. It did not add up for me, and I was too frustrated by the involvement of S2K that I just wanted to leave. No roleplay encounter is worth erasure of items/knowledge/experiences through S2K. It killed my mood completely, so I have no desire to play under these circumstances.

I hear S2RP is being considered more seriously and I sincerely hope that is the case. I don't want anyone else stuck with a high ping and/or shit computer like myself to be at an automatic disadvantage because someone involved would rather not spend time in a time-consuming gamemode.

You say it was done in the interest of story, but with what has happened, nothing story-based was influenced beyond the unreasonable survival of the characters. It wasn't interesting, it was infuriating. It didn't even feel deserved. Plus, even if my character was left alive for a future encounter, it seemed likely it was just going to be another S2K which I would predictably lose. I already hate it on principle: why would I want to live to sit through that again?

 

[atlassu]

im going to give my executive knowledge on this one

S2K only applies to armed aggressors, as one of the spectators of the situation, MCG was NOT armed nor aggressing.

Attacking unarmed aggressors is against the rules.
That is it.

1.0 - RDM Rules
-- Randomly attacking / killing other characters for no reason is considered Random-Death-Matching.

 

[Taliazure]

Totally fair question, and I’ll give you the straight answer you’re looking for:

Why would a character shoot someone and not finish them off?
Because that decision wasn’t necessarily about mercy or half-measures, it was tactical. My character didn’t need to confirm the kill to achieve her goal. She wanted to neutralize threats long enough to escape safely and create distance. Once she felt confident you'd been taken out of the fight, or at least couldn’t immediately follow her, there was no further benefit in lingering to “make sure.”

It wasn’t a heroic "I’ll spare you" moment, nor was it some indecisive middle ground. It was cold logic: you're down, bleeding, no longer a threat, that's enough. Whether you lived or died after that didn’t matter to her, especially if she thought you'd bleed out or wouldn’t recover fast enough to chase her.


But this is RP. And not just RP, longform story RP, where not every shot has to end in death. Sometimes leaving someone alive actually adds more drama, more friction, more future. In this case, I intentionally chose not to PK you so you could carry forward something from this, granted, it didn’t land for you but again that's a you problem.
The other two continued with it, you're the odd one out.

Regarding the S2K vs S2RP part:
I don’t disagree that S2RP would’ve probably made for a better scene in terms of clarity, and emotional impact. You’re absolutely right S2RP favors small group tension, not mechanical reflexes. But in the moment, S2K was what was agreed on and what the flow of the situation led to as well as rules state as divine quoted. In hindsight, I can see how it derailed the immersion for you, especially with high ping or poor performance, but news flash... I play at 20-30 fps, you're not the only one suffering, welcome to garrys mod we all have problems with fps or ping. And yeah, when you're already at a hardware disadvantage, S2K isn't just unfun; it feels punishing, been there, am there, will be there, so I know...

So if that frustrated you enough to disengage? That's valid, maybe that's what you should've done, so now you kkow next time instead of walking in to a active shooting situation unarmed, walk the other way, disengagement is the word of the day.

As for the final point:

> "You say it was done in the interest of story, but nothing story-based was influenced beyond the unreasonable survival of the characters."

You're right in how it felt. The impact didn’t land. The story wasn’t enhanced from your POV; it was diluted. And that’s the hard truth: no matter the intention, if the outcome didn’t serve the players wants and needs, then the RP failed for them, problem is there's is always someone who won't benefit from a situation and that's something you might have to learn to live with. Some might find more meaning and a better outcome of the situation, some might ennioy it and use it to build their characters and find a new resolve... Others... Just give up and self pk because they can't come up with anything... Not much we could've done to help you, it's on you to continue that.

And you’re also right to say that living through something just to get gunned down again later in another S2K isn’t appealing, so that's a motivation to ensure it doesn't t happen again, form a large group to hunt my bandit down, form a watch, put up a bounty on me, stay with someone when you think my character is prowling around.. Many ways to go about this and they all include rp and or some form of development. If the cycle just repeats, the story has no meaning, and your character just becomes cannon fodder, but that is in your hands... And what you make out of this experience.

Bottom line:
I acknowledge how it left you feeling sidelined.
You’re completely justified in stepping back if the experience made you feel erased or railroaded.

Going forward, I don't support s2rp for shootings unless it's as the rules state a very close quarters and low number of people, hand to hand combat as we had on the stairs prior.

Thanks for being this honest about how it affected you. Even if we don’t agree on every angle, I respect the way you’ve voiced it.

im going to give my executive knowledge on this one

S2K only applies to armed aggressors, as one of the spectators of the situation, MCG was NOT armed nor aggressing.

Attacking unarmed aggressors is against the rules.
That is it.

1.0 - RDM Rules
-- Randomly attacking / killing other characters for no reason is considered Random-Death-Matching.

Alright, let me break this down clearly:

In this situation, MCG was not armed and was not aggressing.

Attacking unarmed or armed players FOR NO REASON is against the rules.
That’s not my opinion, it’s directly supported by the server’s own rules:

> 1.0 - RDM Rules
Randomly attacking/killing other characters for no reason is considered Random-Death-Matching.

But it does not state anything about unarmed becsuse even a unarmed person can be a threat... Who's to stop him from picking up the gun from the corpse of deacon... And become a major threat by shooting me in the back? Who's to say he wasn't gonna do that... Nothing guaranteed it, so instead of focusing on ifs and maybes, let's look at the fact that he involved himself in a situation he should never have...
If it were cps they would've shot you too and it wouldn't be wrong either.

Now, to clarify: I didn’t shoot MCG for "no reason." There was IC logic behind the action. I identified a potential threat, yes, unarmed at the time, but not uninvolved. MCG chose to enter the conflict by assisting another character mid-fight, which changed their status in that moment from bystander to participant. That’s where my character’s decision came in.
If anything I could rule fear rp and the lack of fear by MCG for entering a live gunfight situation... But hey... Let's not be pulling any punches here, we're not here to throw accusations or stating who broke the rules and who didn't. We're here to clarify something and discuss whether or not the situation was handled well by our gms, which is in the wrong thread as this should be more of a complaint or discussion tagged.

If you believe quoting the rules proves your point, that’s fine... but let’s not act like quoting them in isolation makes your point valid. Rules require context and interpretation, especially in edge cases like this.

And as a side note: quoting books or rules doesn’t automatically make someone right, or “smart.” It just makes them appear selective if they ignore the broader picture... Aka an idiot.

 

[MCG]

Totally fair question, and I’ll give you the straight answer you’re looking for:

Why would a character shoot someone and not finish them off?
Because that decision wasn’t necessarily about mercy or half-measures, it was tactical. My character didn’t need to confirm the kill to achieve her goal. She wanted to neutralize threats long enough to escape safely and create distance. Once she felt confident you'd been taken out of the fight, or at least couldn’t immediately follow her, there was no further benefit in lingering to “make sure.”

It wasn’t a heroic "I’ll spare you" moment, nor was it some indecisive middle ground. It was cold logic: you're down, bleeding, no longer a threat, that's enough. Whether you lived or died after that didn’t matter to her, especially if she thought you'd bleed out or wouldn’t recover fast enough to chase her.


But this is RP. And not just RP, longform story RP, where not every shot has to end in death. Sometimes leaving someone alive actually adds more drama, more friction, more future. In this case, I intentionally chose not to PK you so you could carry forward something from this, granted, it didn’t land for you but again that's a you problem.
The other two continued with it, you're the odd one out.

Regarding the S2K vs S2RP part:
I don’t disagree that S2RP would’ve probably made for a better scene in terms of clarity, and emotional impact. You’re absolutely right S2RP favors small group tension, not mechanical reflexes. But in the moment, S2K was what was agreed on and what the flow of the situation led to as well as rules state as divine quoted. In hindsight, I can see how it derailed the immersion for you, especially with high ping or poor performance, but news flash... I play at 20-30 fps, you're not the only one suffering, welcome to garrys mod we all have problems with fps or ping. And yeah, when you're already at a hardware disadvantage, S2K isn't just unfun; it feels punishing, been there, am there, will be there, so I know...

So if that frustrated you enough to disengage? That's valid, maybe that's what you should've done, so now you kkow next time instead of walking in to a active shooting situation unarmed, walk the other way, disengagement is the word of the day.

As for the final point:

> "You say it was done in the interest of story, but nothing story-based was influenced beyond the unreasonable survival of the characters."

You're right in how it felt. The impact didn’t land. The story wasn’t enhanced from your POV; it was diluted. And that’s the hard truth: no matter the intention, if the outcome didn’t serve the players wants and needs, then the RP failed for them, problem is there's is always someone who won't benefit from a situation and that's something you might have to learn to live with. Some might find more meaning and a better outcome of the situation, some might ennioy it and use it to build their characters and find a new resolve... Others... Just give up and self pk because they can't come up with anything... Not much we could've done to help you, it's on you to continue that.

And you’re also right to say that living through something just to get gunned down again later in another S2K isn’t appealing, so that's a motivation to ensure it doesn't t happen again, form a large group to hunt my bandit down, form a watch, put up a bounty on me, stay with someone when you think my character is prowling around.. Many ways to go about this and they all include rp and or some form of development. If the cycle just repeats, the story has no meaning, and your character just becomes cannon fodder, but that is in your hands... And what you make out of this experience.

Bottom line:
I acknowledge how it left you feeling sidelined.
You’re completely justified in stepping back if the experience made you feel erased or railroaded.

Going forward, I don't support s2rp for shootings unless it's as the rules state a very close quarters and low number of people, hand to hand combat as we had on the stairs prior.

Thanks for being this honest about how it affected you. Even if we don’t agree on every angle, I respect the way you’ve voiced it.

Alright, let me break this down clearly:

In this situation, MCG was not armed and was not aggressing.

Attacking unarmed or armed players FOR NO REASON is against the rules.
That’s not my opinion, it’s directly supported by the server’s own rules:

> 1.0 - RDM Rules
Randomly attacking/killing other characters for no reason is considered Random-Death-Matching.

But it does not state anything about unarmed becsuse even a unarmed person can be a threat...

Now, to clarify: I didn’t shoot MCG for "no reason." There was IC logic behind the action. I identified a potential threat, yes, unarmed at the time, but not uninvolved. MCG chose to enter the conflict by assisting another character mid-fight, which changed their status in that moment from bystander to participant. That’s where my character’s decision came in.
If anything I could rule fear rp and the lack of fear by MCG for entering a live gunfight situation... But hey... Let's not be pulling any punches here, we're not here to throw accusations or stating who broke the rules and who didn't. We're here to clarify something and discuss whether or not the situation was handled well by our gms, which is in the wrong thread as this should be more of a complaint or discussion tagged.

If you believe quoting the rules proves your point, that’s fine... but let’s not act like quoting them in isolation makes your point valid. Rules require context and interpretation, especially in edge cases like this.

And as a side note: quoting books or rules doesn’t automatically make someone right, or “smart.” It just makes them appear selective if they ignore the broader picture... Aka an idiot.

This seems to be the interpretation you're pushing so I'm gonna ask: how does stepping in to help someone out of the zone count as engagement? My character wasn't looking for a fight, just to help out, and when I got shot, I ran away. I don't see how involving in that way constitutes a justified threat beyond the presence of another person.

As for the 'lack of fear' comment, it was because in S2RP terms, you would've been occupied shooting Crash while I dragged Deacon out as per timescale terms. I certainly wasn't expecting you to kill her in five seconds.

As for the flow of the situation, it started as an S2RP so I don't understand why it didn't continue as an S2RP. I don't see how the flow of the situation escalated unless there were suddenly ten people involved, but below that number tends to be quite normal for S2RP standards.

Talking about continuing the scenario after the fact, the issue is that S2K was already established to be at the forefront so it didn't matter if I put together a group or hitlist or whatever if it meant I was just gonna get shot as soon as I left a random doorway. I just don't want to put myself through that ever, because it's frustrating to experience as a roleplayer. One expects to type more than act in these gamemodes. It may have been in my hands to decide to do such a thing, but nothing was worth the S2K experience, whether it was you shooting me or me shooting you or whatever. I would've complained on your behalf if *I* won, that's how much I dislike S2K on principle. I already have to deal with being halfway across the world from everyone in addition to bad FPS, so the odds were still stacked.

I am alright with the rest of what you discussed, but I am very certain I did not have as many options as you presented, because it'll eventually just lead to the same problem down the road, hence the creation of this thread as a discussion topic for why S2K shouldn't have applied, especially not here.

EDIT: Regarding the involvement point, your character's motivation was just to get them off her back, so why would pulling someone away from the gunfight constitute the presence of a threat, when the action itself was indirectly fueling your motivation and leaving you alone?

 

[Taliazure]

This will be my final post on the matter.

At the end of the day, this entire conversation has stemmed from someone being unhappy with the outcome of a situation, not necessarily a rule violation, but a disagreement on how the RP played out and how it affected their character.

Let’s be clear:

No rules were broken.

No foul play occurred from either side.

No PK was enforced or intended by me.


Unless there's an actual accusation being made that I need to respond to, I consider the matter settled on my end.

Sometimes in RP, things won’t go our way. We lose. The scene isn’t in our favor. That’s just part of storytelling. A strong roleplayer knows how to take a loss and turn it into something that builds their character, not tears it down. That’s how longform stories are made.

Now, if a character had been prematurely PK’d or erased over a scene like this, that would’ve been an issue. But that didn’t happen here. I made sure not to take things that far, because I respect the value of other people’s characters and stories. (specially when I have lost a good one recently due to the bad faith of a player)

So again: unless someone has a concrete rule violation to bring up, I’ll leave it at that.

Thanks for the discussion. I'm moving on.

But a small edit to respond
Who would guarantee me that you wouldn't pick up their gun and shoot me? Just think about it... Don't... Enter a live situation.
I don't need to explain this to you, entering a situation where people are killing each other even with good intentions is not smart, you'll get shot and you deserve it.

Whats one of the rules from first aid? Ensure the threat who put the person in that state is not a threat to you before you aid.
That's rule number one... Maybe consider it next time you try to play hero while there's a maniac with a gun around...

Oh and you did run away... Only to come back around from behind me and try to sneak into your base to grab your gun... Please... Don't act as if you tried to actually hide, you came back and thafs the second mistake you made, I shot you, made you leave and stop helping those I was trying to neutralize, then you came back, ran through the tunnels and stepped into the courtyard where I was and tried to enter your base where I fully knew you had been stashing stuff earlier from crafting, so easily my character knew you had stuff in there of value and maybe something to defend yourself.

Have a good day

 

[MCG]

I’ll be frank and say that I don’t always recommend consulting staff if you have not read the rules prior. You should read the guidelines as listed, then seek out staff for elaboration; however, it is made clear with an added clarification that:

CQC is defined as combat where an unarmed/melee user initiates combat against another character regardless of what they are using. This will FORCE S2RP.

Contrariwise, if the gun user initiates combat against an unarmed/melee user it does not need to be forced into S2RP and will thereby default to S2K. If the person with the gun opens fire in a situation that has not yet begun, or is imminent to be resolved through S2K, they would not be in the wrong.

Also, the second sentence here is what concerns me. Does this mean, in gameplay terms, that to survive and do a good roleplay scene, I should be *running towards* the enemy with a gun to make sure we got a fair combat scenario? That doesn't seem right.

 

[MCG]

Whats one of the rules from first aid? Ensure the threat who put the person in that state is not a threat to you before you aid.
That's rule number one... Maybe consider it next time you try to play hero while there's a maniac with a gun around...
Have a good day

I say again. In S2RP terms, you would've been distracted by Crash shooting back at you while I dragged Deacon away. In S2K application, what happened was that you killed her immediately before anyone could act and shot me before I could type. I don't know about First Aid Rules, I was just trying to help out someone that helped me, that's reasonable.

Why are you suddenly being a jerk about this when we've had a civil discussion thus far?

 

[Taliazure]

Also, the second sentence here is what concerns me. Does this mean, in gameplay terms, that to survive and do a good roleplay scene, I should be *running towards* the enemy with a gun to make sure we got a fair combat scenario? That doesn't seem right.

You run away...?

 

[MCG]

You run away...?

That's *logic*, but according to that rule, my interpretation is what's implied. I ran away and I got shot for it, and that rule is making it sound such that running towards the shooter would've been safer because it would've kicked off S2RP.