Denied Physical (& Digital) Legal Tender

[Thinking Man]

Suggestion: Add physical legal tender, in addition to the digital legal tender the Cities' economies currently use. Furthermore: a bank, and a dispenser to withdrawal/deposit physical tender.

Pre-Face:
Willard Networks has designed a solid economy for both legal role-players and insurgent role-players.

City role-players use digital currency called "Credits," which the Combine can view transactional logs of which makes for interesting investigation-into-funds roleplay (which could be better, I'll elaborate further on in this suggestion); vast deposits out of nowhere and large transactions show up as suspicious on Citizens' transactional records, which leads to them having to receive/spend their money wisely. For large and illegal purchases, it's wiser to spend Chips because the Combine cannot track it and its the underworlds'/insurgents' main currency anyway.

Chips are physical, and refugees and insurgents use them as currency in the Quarantine Zone because the Combine cannot track it. This is a phenomenal feature, the Quarantine Zone using a separate currency than the Cities', because why would refugees and insurgents opposed to the power structures in place rely on The System's currency? War of the Flea, a book on insurgent stratagem, discusses this in Point 18 of its 20 Points:

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Willard Networks' ideas are excellent, regarding the Citizens' economy and the refugees' and insurgents' economy. So if the ideas regarding the Citizens' and the refugees' and insurgents' economies are excellent, what need would there be to add physical legal tender to the Cities' economy in addition to the digital legal tender it already has?

Why?:
I believe the Cities' economy, as great as it is, has a functional flaw roleplay-wise. IC-wise it makes complete sense for the Combine to go all-digital so they can track every transaction the Citizens make, fitting for a totalitarian alien regime. It's fully functional and great for legal role-players. However, roleplay-/OOC-wise, the solely digital currency inhibits the ability for City-based illegal roleplay factions (such as street gangs, organized crime groups, etc.) to effectively operate, which severely limits City-based illegal roleplay to basically low-level thug activity.

How so? Every deposit/withdrawal/payment is on record. Criminal groups are inhibited from committing illegal activities which accrue them a above-average sum of Credits because there is no way to store Credits, to launder later, off-record since it's all on-record no matter what. Street gangs/gangsters cannot really earn any Credits at all since an individual earning an even above-average amount is suspicious on transactional records and they cannot hide their money away at all. Organized crime is crippled by this because even laundering efforts would be stunted since every withdrawal/deposit/payment is on record, which means any high-earning amount cannot slowly/cleverly be siphoned into accounts. In general, illegal activities which earn you any Credits at all would immediately put you on the radar since there lacks a way to properly launder it since its all automatically on record.

Couldn't City-based illegal roleplay factions use Chips instead? Chips are only useful for Quarantine Zone black markets but are practically useless on the surface. Illegal factions are almost forced to go underground/roleplay as underground factions rather than City-based factions by the system as it currently is. The risk outweighs the reward unfairly OOC-wise (with crime there is always risk, but this inhibits crime roleplay tremendously) since there is no way to siphon illegal Credits into accounts safely. Furthermore, the average Citizen does not use Chips—so selling narcotics, weaponry, etc. on the surface is pointless; many "hustles" are made fruitless—and the Cities' economy does not use Chips—so profiting Chips within the City is useless to use in the City, it's only valuable underground—making them, ergo, useless on the surface. It's more profitable to be an underground faction rather than risk your neck for zero reason on the surface. Which I think is a shame.

Why is it a shame illegal roleplay factions cannot operate in-City? The average Citizen role-player is not affected by whether there is physical legal tender or not (for the most part, will elaborate further in a bit). However, the illegal role-player is because of the reasons described above. I believe it's a shame illegal roleplay factions cannot operate in-City for these reasons:
1. City-based illegal roleplay factions—organized crime, street gangs, etc.—add a breath of life to the City, that things are going on within it.
2. Usually criminal factions, especially organized crime, operate businesses whether to launder tender, hold territory, expand influence, etc. The operation of businesses provides locations for passive RP, for the average legal Citizen role-player, to passive roleplay in, as well as really anybody within the City (illegal role-players, Civil Protection, etc.).. Again, this makes the City feel alive and breathing.
3. The ability for criminal elements to exist healthily in a City roleplay environment provides content for Civil Protection role-players. It gives them things to investigate seriously, and content overall as they crackdown on such criminal elements (or if somebody is playing a corrupt CP who'd be willing to go on a criminal's payroll, an environment for corrupt cop roleplay).

A final note. As stated, I like the economic system for the Cities' and Quarantine Zones. However, the Cities' is flawed because of the reasons I described in-depth. Adding physical legal tender, in addition to the digital legal tender, would not only solve the issues I described—allowing criminal role-players the ability to make illegal profits and stash illegal profits to launder through businesses and whatnot effectively if they are smart—but it would also provide Civil Protection some interesting roleplay. It's cool the Combine can investigate transactional logs. Adding physical legal tender which people can siphon slowly into accounts and launder through legitimate businesses would add a whole other element, and provide interesting investigation roleplay for Civil Protection into illegal profits.

Thank you reading to the end. Please consider all said.

 

[Chains]

Please add this. Some of the best RP on Terranova was the MafiaRP of the Italians. It would be impossible to do that now, as it would be broken up without chance of trickery or obscurity.

 

[Bo Baker]

I like this idea.

 

[Equinox]

Suggestion: Add physical legal tender, in addition to the digital legal tender the Cities' economies currently use. Furthermore: a bank, and a dispenser to withdrawal/deposit physical tender.

Pre-Face:
Willard Networks has designed a solid economy for both legal role-players and insurgent role-players.

City role-players use digital currency called "Credits," which the Combine can view transactional logs of which makes for interesting investigation-into-funds roleplay (which could be better, I'll elaborate further on in this suggestion); vast deposits out of nowhere and large transactions show up as suspicious on Citizens' transactional records, which leads to them having to receive/spend their money wisely. For large and illegal purchases, it's wiser to spend Chips because the Combine cannot track it and its the underworlds'/insurgents' main currency anyway.

Chips are physical, and refugees and insurgents use them as currency in the Quarantine Zone because the Combine cannot track it. This is a phenomenal feature, the Quarantine Zone using a separate currency than the Cities', because why would refugees and insurgents opposed to the power structures in place rely on The System's currency? War of the Flea, a book on insurgent stratagem, discusses this in Point 18 of its 20 Points:

View attachment 3398​

Willard Networks' ideas are excellent, regarding the Citizens' economy and the refugees' and insurgents' economy. So if the ideas regarding the Citizens' and the refugees' and insurgents' economies are excellent, what need would there be to add physical legal tender to the Cities' economy in addition to the digital legal tender it already has?

Why?:
I believe the Cities' economy, as great as it is, has a functional flaw roleplay-wise. IC-wise it makes complete sense for the Combine to go all-digital so they can track every transaction the Citizens make, fitting for a totalitarian alien regime. It's fully functional and great for legal role-players. However, roleplay-/OOC-wise, the solely digital currency inhibits the ability for City-based illegal roleplay factions (such as street gangs, organized crime groups, etc.) to effectively operate, which severely limits City-based illegal roleplay to basically low-level thug activity.

How so? Every deposit/withdrawal/payment is on record. Criminal groups are inhibited from committing illegal activities which accrue them a above-average sum of Credits because there is no way to store Credits, to launder later, off-record since it's all on-record no matter what. Street gangs/gangsters cannot really earn any Credits at all since an individual earning an even above-average amount is suspicious on transactional records and they cannot hide their money away at all. Organized crime is crippled by this because even laundering efforts would be stunted since every withdrawal/deposit/payment is on record, which means any high-earning amount cannot slowly/cleverly be siphoned into accounts. In general, illegal activities which earn you any Credits at all would immediately put you on the radar since there lacks a way to properly launder it since its all automatically on record.

Couldn't City-based illegal roleplay factions use Chips instead? Chips are only useful for Quarantine Zone black markets but are practically useless on the surface. Illegal factions are almost forced to go underground/roleplay as underground factions rather than City-based factions by the system as it currently is. The risk outweighs the reward unfairly OOC-wise (with crime there is always risk, but this inhibits crime roleplay tremendously) since there is no way to siphon illegal Credits into accounts safely. Furthermore, the average Citizen does not use Chips—so selling narcotics, weaponry, etc. on the surface is pointless; many "hustles" are made fruitless—and the Cities' economy does not use Chips—so profiting Chips within the City is useless to use in the City, it's only valuable underground—making them, ergo, useless on the surface. It's more profitable to be an underground faction rather than risk your neck for zero reason on the surface. Which I think is a shame.

Why is it a shame illegal roleplay factions cannot operate in-City? The average Citizen role-player is not affected by whether there is physical legal tender or not (for the most part, will elaborate further in a bit). However, the illegal role-player is because of the reasons described above. I believe it's a shame illegal roleplay factions cannot operate in-City for these reasons:
1. City-based illegal roleplay factions—organized crime, street gangs, etc.—add a breath of life to the City, that things are going on within it.
2. Usually criminal factions, especially organized crime, operate businesses whether to launder tender, hold territory, expand influence, etc. The operation of businesses provides locations for passive RP, for the average legal Citizen role-player, to passive roleplay in, as well as really anybody within the City (illegal role-players, Civil Protection, etc.).. Again, this makes the City feel alive and breathing.
3. The ability for criminal elements to exist healthily in a City roleplay environment provides content for Civil Protection role-players. It gives them things to investigate seriously, and content overall as they crackdown on such criminal elements (or if somebody is playing a corrupt CP who'd be willing to go on a criminal's payroll, an environment for corrupt cop roleplay).

A final note. As stated, I like the economic system for the Cities' and Quarantine Zones. However, the Cities' is flawed because of the reasons I described in-depth. Adding physical legal tender, in addition to the digital legal tender, would not only solve the issues I described—allowing criminal role-players the ability to make illegal profits and stash illegal profits to launder through businesses and whatnot effectively if they are smart—but it would also provide Civil Protection some interesting roleplay. It's cool the Combine can investigate transactional logs. Adding physical legal tender which people can siphon slowly into accounts and launder through legitimate businesses would add a whole other element, and provide interesting investigation roleplay for Civil Protection into illegal profits.

Thank you reading to the end. Please consider all said.

You’ve brought up a valid issue, and it’s one that does need to be addressed, but I’m unsure if this is the right way to do it in relation to what we already have because introducing physical currency goes against the entire point of digital currency.

Digital currency was introduced to not only give the perception that the Combine truly control all your means, but to also introduce a contrast between the legal currency and the illegal currency of poker chips. At least, this is how I remember it. The issue this suggestion brings is what happens to illegal tender if a legal physical tender were introduced.

Essentially, what happens to illegal tender when a legal version of it is introduced? This is something I feel is best left to you, the one concerned, to answer. What incentive do black markets have to utilize an illegal currency over a legal one? Sure one could say that they’d use legal tender as a front, but what’s keeping them from simply using it in secret as well?

That was part of the point of digital currency, in that you couldn’t utilize it in illegal operations (aside from the most subtle and covert forms), so rebels and black markets had to smuggle and utilize another form of currency.

 

[Thinking Man]

You’ve brought up a valid issue, and it’s one that does need to be addressed, but I’m unsure if this is the right way to do it in relation to what we already have because introducing physical currency goes against the entire point of digital currency.

Digital currency was introduced to not only give the perception that the Combine truly control all your means, but to also introduce a contrast between the legal currency and the illegal currency of poker chips. At least, this is how I remember it. The issue this suggestion brings is what happens to illegal tender if a legal physical tender were introduced.

Essentially, what happens to illegal tender when a legal version of it is introduced? This is something I feel is best left to you, the one concerned, to answer. What incentive do black markets have to utilize an illegal currency over a legal one? Sure one could say that they’d use legal tender as a front, but what’s keeping them from simply using it in secret as well?

That was part of the point of digital currency, in that you couldn’t utilize it in illegal operations (aside from the most subtle and covert forms), so rebels and black markets had to smuggle and utilize another form of currency.

Thank you for your thoughtful response/concern.

Essentially, what happens to illegal tender when a legal version of it is introduced? This is something I feel is best left to you, the one concerned, to answer. What incentive do black markets have to utilize an illegal currency over a legal one? Sure one could say that they’d use legal tender as a front, but what’s keeping them from simply using it in secret as well?

This is a good question. Criminal enterprises within the City (narcotics smuggling, and etc.) would probably conform to the legal physical tender since the customer-base in the City uses it, and its useful within the City. That's the idea. But the concern is the denizens of the Quarantine Zone no longer using the illegal currency, Chips. Understandable. To that I say the Quarantine Zone has an established economy in which the denizens of it use Chips already, and the denizens—refugees/insurgents—partly do it IC-wise to detach from The System. However, I believe bolstering/encouraging the usage of Chips within refugee/insurgent circles and BMDs operating in the Quarantine Zone would be extremely beneficial to maintaining its status as the "Underworld Currency," and could facilitate interesting currency-exchange roleplay between City-based groups and underground groups—e.g.: a City-based group needs guns, the guns are only sold for Chips, the City-based group brokers a deal with somebody for Chips in exchange for the City's currency (physical legal tender), and then the City-based group approaches the gun dealer and purchases the firearms with the Chips they traded their legal physical tender to another guy for (the BMD/gun dealer wouldn't accept legal physical tender because its useless to them in the Quarantine Zone, since everything is bought/sold by Chips in it).

Implementation of legal physical tender would have to be done carefully and smoothly, but overall would be beneficial to the Cities' economy from a roleplay perspective for illegal elements.

I understand the concern here though, and welcome any suggestions to prevent the illegal tender from being phased out (I don't want it to at all, I think it's cool the Quarantine Zone uses a separate currency detached from "The System"; I wish to maintain that while adding another element to the Cities' economies to spice up City roleplay).

EDIT: Perhaps BMD players could have to pay their suppliers back a fee in Chips, and they profit/keep their earnings after paying the supplier's cut. This would mean they'd have to earn a certain amount of Chips/sell stuff for Chips to pay back their supplier for the goods they received to sell.

 

[Dog]

What would be the lore reason for the local CCA to even add in physical coins/credits. It seems like a massive waste of resources and time for them.

 

[Ruffian]

Please add this. Some of the best RP on Terranova was the MafiaRP of the Italians. It would be impossible to do that now, as it would be broken up without chance of trickery or obscurity.

As one of the later leaders of the Italian mafia, I agree. When Chrissy died I cried real tears. It was FANTASTIC roleplay and really got me immersed in the environment. However, as Grass outlines in the response below, I think it'd be more fun to RP having to hide illegal transactions instead of just getting a pass w/ a physical currency.

 

[Gr4Ss]

Physical credits would immediately ruin a lot of the features of the digital currency.

The entire rebel economy meta left out of the picture here, it would once again turn the ration machine into an infinite, unrestricted money spewing machine which gives me extremely big concerns for massive inflation. People may hate the ration machine credit cap, but it is here to prevent LemonPunch-like situations. With the amount of players the LP server had (70-80 avg, not too different from WN right now), over 5 million tokens were being created every month. Only 1 million of those credits were siphoned out through the business menu (BMD's buying things). The other 4 million? Large disappeared into people's pocket.

The Digital Currency allows us to KNOW how much money you have and not give any if that is enough for basic survival. No longer will you gather large sums of money simply from using the ration machine (until you have enough to become a rebel). Once there is physical tender that we cannot 'track', that entire feature goes out of the window with no replacement for it whatsoever. Earning money above the cap requires you to work for it, this creates RP as well.

To make it worse, on WN there is no BMD menu acting as a sink for credits. All money has to be siphoned out through the stores and PK's (and some other minor sources). Physical tender also interferes there: people will drop money all of the sudden and can store said money in containers. Stashes partially alleviate the problem, but physical currency is a lot harder to stomp out of existence through PK's. It has a tendency to keep on floating around.

Technically Helix has no native support for multiple currencies. Credits are simply tacked on as they were only needed in our custom systems - and being digital we had to make custom ways to transfer them as well. Chips use the base helix currency and thus can be stored in containers. We would need to make some large edits there should credits need to support physical tender that you can store.

And then rebel economy-wise: I would not take the current situation to be an example of the main server. The QZ has a much higher barrier of entry than you will see with the slums/sewers on C24. Right now it is hard to get to a smuggler, chances of being caught are high and result in immediate amputation. On C24 there is still some risk (going down into the sewer), but overall it is much lower (very little chance of being caught inside, 'safe' exit in the slums). That should make chips more abundant.

On top of that, chips need some time to get into circulation. There is a hard limit of how much can come into circulation via limited smuggler inventory space and starting money. This is to combat inflation (together with being a closed-loop currency). It is normal you see very little of it so far - it isn't spewed into existence like credits every time someone gets food just by pressing a button. You need to work to get them.

Legal tender would also reduce chips to being a smuggling currency, rather than an underground currency. Credits would simply be much easier to use as it is money everyone has available and can be used in stores/bartering.

For City-based criminal organizations: a store is a great way to hide your credit transactions as they naturally receive money from random people. Unless someone digs really deep into transaction logs (like, make a spreadsheet to reverse engineer stock levels type deep) it isn't easy to catch. Physical currency won't exactly reduce the risk here (the same type of tracking can still be done - buying stock from the Combine would still be digital-only). The only thing you need to avoid are large credit transactions, but the same is true with physical tender.

In the end, being a surface criminal, you will have to take a different approach. That is intended by design - the main goal of the 2 currency system was to explicitly prevent players from taking their ration money and buying guns with it. That is stupid, has been the root cause of a shitton of economy issues over the years and I have never understood why the Combine would ignore such a thing (as essentially they were directly funding all rebels with the ration machine).

tl;dr big no from me because it goes against a lot of the design ideas for the digital currency. There are big technical and gameplay concerns. Plus I want to see it on C24 first, as the QZ is not properly representative for the C24 slum+sewer.

 

[Atle]

As Gr4ss put it, combine would lose control over the economy very rapidly not to mention all the complications we'd have go to through in order to implement something like this. It is a good suggestion though but I will have to decline it for the reasons stated above

Instead of implementing a whole new currency system I'd encourage to try find other tactics to launder money and fool the logs


DENIED