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My (Hot?) Take on Willards Rebel Problems

RedHotGinger

The Owl
GALUNGA
Joined
Sep 25, 2020
Messages
847

It is no secret amidst anyone who has spent a sizeable chunk of time in Willard that there is a lot of division and general dissatisfaction with many aspects of how Willard handles some of its features. I want to focus on one specific faction in this from the perspective of someone who admittingly does not often directly dabble in its depths personally. As such, take this for what it is, an opinionated piece. One that I feel is still entirely justified to be made. After all, even if every single thing I say is objectively wrong, someone can come along and correct it, and add clarity to the issue that can be brought up in the next discord shitshow.

Without further time wasting:
Rebels.

In my opinion, this faction carries the largest set of afflictions compared to any other aspect of Willards main server. As such, I will not be covering everything, but rather the things that interest me - someone who plays a citizen for the most part, but has a decent overhead of the servers general happenings due to my longstanding presence within it. I am mostly making this in order to neatly put together my various views and takes regarding this faction, so that they may be looked upon with a more organized eye.




One of the first things I want to address is what I find to be the largest problem rebels have. Power creep. It is something that has slowly been presenting itself to Willard for well over six months now. With every few paces the server takes, rebels in some form or another, manage to squeeze more and more advantages from the management. Rebels have transformed immensely when compared to those of the so-titled "Bottlestreet Era." Now, while this may seem a good thing at a cursory glance - given that very few remember this period fondly, myself included - there is more to it than one may first believe. While it was a terrible time all around, there is one thing it did (Kind of) well that has been completely forgotten by modern Willard.

Power Scaling


Modern rebels in Willard are a far cry from what was once known. They, in many respects, match the Combine factions they oppose, or even leap over them with little effort. Civil Protection in particular has been surpassed in almost all respects. Entire faction additions desperately trying to turn them into 'mini-OTA' just to enable them to keep up. Even beyond weapons, countless crippling blows to the Combine factions and endless stipulations and addendums to deployment and counter-insurgent options only further weaken them.

This may not seem like a bad thing to everyone, but I want to try to explain the harsh negative effects this has on the server as a whole. Not just the rebel faction itself. While the Bottlestreet Era was too far in the opposite direction, I do believe a middle ground can be achieved with such power scaling.

Since rebels have so much power, and are so readily able to access weaponry and other gear, the subtle nuances of rebellion are partially left behind. Information hunting, clever sabotage and infiltration are greatly lessened in importance as a result. When the direct method becomes more viable, one can expect it to be the most often used. Especially when it is often the only option to give results. Schemes of all sorts seem to longer hold viability in our current Rebel meta. Where as rebels were once expected to live a double life, going between the city and more secretive slums in order to progress and survive, now one can stay in the slums for the entire process and never really notice the difference. Only popping out occasionally for a ration or similar. There is no real need for a double life. Rebels have no need for the city - and the city has no need for them.

There is very little room for actual infiltrative tact. Or the abuse of corrupt assets the Combine have. Information to mine, or hardpoints to disable. This is because a variety of reasons.

1. The map

While this is something I did not realize at first when looking at the new map, being impressed with its general design, looking at it now, it seems obvious in retrospect what the biggest issue with such a massive rebel space brings. The lack of a playground for them. Compared to the winding, narrow halls of Indigent, the rebels only true targets lie within the two streets of the main city. Entirely visible from pretty much any angle, and impossible to hide in. Many escape routes being located directly in the middle of the road. With no reason to ever sabotage the slums or indigent, they are left with little to actually plot against. Especially given the Nexus is basically off-limits.

In fact, Indigent itself almost feels as if it were a sort of Outland portion of the map. Absolutely no loyalist elements are ever allowed within its area, cutting off any and all interactions rebels may have with their counterparts in their own turf. CP's are not allowed to patrol the region normally either. Only being allowed to conduct basic, surface level walks as a standard move. With anything else not in direct counter being considered a shadow sweep. Indigent has become an entirely separate entity from the city. They do not blend in the slightest. To such an extent, by all accounts, the Combine would just shell it and be done with it in reality.

Will this change? Almost certainly not, but it is a problem all the same if you ask me.


2. The lack of City Incentives

Civil Protection?
Civil Protection are nearly impossible to convince to engage in shady activity as very few incentives exist within the faction to encourage such behavior (afaik). CP's are treated as Tier 8 citizens by default and have almost unlimited power granted to them. They do not feel the boot of the Combine as they should, so despite leads talking about how much they love the idea of rouge CP's, barely any IC incentive exists for such things.

The loyalist party
The single largest aspect of City RP. It is also completely and utterly useless. Even a Tier 6 citizen has practically zero power within, and certainly not without, the law. On top of being cut off from large portions of the map and more strictly watched by Civil Protection, most rebels would intentionally avoid achieving high tiers I imagine. Not even the assembly would appear to be worth the effort due to the highly impotent legislation that they mainly delve in. CCA also falls into this, I think, cause only two positions really matter afaik.

This is also ignoring that, despite having very few benefits, high tiers are the hardest grind in the server by far - even further lowering their inherent value.

CWU/CMU?
CWU has some pretty harsh rogue rules that would deter most rebel activity. CMU is more lax in such respects, but I cannot speak much of this. However, given rebels have such mass supplies of gear, I can only imagine that infiltrating either faction is just not a high priority. Especially considering both factions put material restrictions to prevent one heist from murdering the entire economy. More of a happenstance convenience.

BOE?
Cracked newspapers look terrible and nobody uses them. Why rebels are not allowed to actually print pictures is completely and utterly beyond me. I have no idea why this request was denied in the past - but for the love of God - let rebels print half decent propaganda IC.

BRI?
No hard feelings


3. PK policy
You already know this one. Check below if you do not.




Surely though, the tradeoff of giving rebels a massive boost of power allows them to do more? Well, I don't think so. What is the last thing rebels have ever actually accomplished? What have rebels actually managed to change in a meaningful way, that wasn't snapped back into order some three days later. Or largely due to admin presence? Outside of the direct method, there is not much for rebels to do. Bombings and shotcops make up the majority of base options available to them, which is why this is most often the only form of action we see from them.

Willards style of rebels is to enable them to do much, but accomplish little. Which is the opposite of how it should be, in my own opinion. Rebels who do less, but manage to make waves that last in the waters when they do show up are far preferable. As it feels more genuine, and far more steady in its application.



NOTES:

This is honestly probably way less structured when compared to my previous PK post. However, this is a huge set of issues that all intertwine and tangle up together, and as stated I do not know everything and do my best to do as little hard assuming as possible. While its quality is surely lesser, in the interest of not spending hours trying to conjure the proper way to bring forth twenty separate issues in one post, I just went on a more general, but somewhat focused route.

(I also may have gotten kinda tired of writing. I have a life too believe it or not)

As mentioned above, I don't really play rebel myself. Most information has been gleamed from my time as a CM, SA or CT member. Also being derived from what others tell me since such times. As such, this isn't really me declaring anything as an absolute, but more just putting my own perception/opinion out there for others to view and possibly discuss. Many people have issues with rebels that seem to flow along this line of thought, so figured I would make a...somewhat orderly post regarding it.
That's all gamers 🦉
 
you want to fix Rebel RP?

have Cp's execute snitches.

They are a cancerous growth with regards to CP and Rebel roleplay.
 
I agree with a buncha what you said. The whole RP scene in a whole also suffers from quality. I've seen so many rebels that don't even care to partake in RP. They just wanna sell shit to the NPC and go about their day. Lackluster /mes with such a trigger happy mindset makes for a troublesome rebel rp dynamic.
 
i played the server for a bit recently and you still have the issue of rebels casually walking around the slums with rifles as if it's the most casual thing in the world for no reason at all. very stupid, but i think those stupid rebels will always exist unless cops/ota go in and kill them off (which they should).
1. The map

While this is something I did not realize at first when looking at the new map, being impressed with its general design, looking at it now, it seems obvious in retrospect what the biggest issue with such a massive rebel space brings. The lack of a playground for them. Compared to the winding, narrow halls of Indigent, the rebels only true targets lie within the two streets of the main city. Entirely visible from pretty much any angle, and impossible to hide in. Many escape routes being located directly in the middle of the road. With no reason to ever sabotage the slums or indigent, they are left with little to actually plot against. Especially given the Nexus is basically off-limits.

In fact, Indigent itself almost feels as if it were a sort of Outland portion of the map. Absolutely no loyalist elements are ever allowed within its area, cutting off any and all interactions rebels may have with their counterparts in their own turf. CP's are not allowed to patrol the region normally either. Only being allowed to conduct basic, surface level walks as a standard move. With anything else not in direct counter being considered a shadow sweep. Indigent has become an entirely separate entity from the city. They do not blend in the slightest. To such an extent, by all accounts, the Combine would just shell it and be done with it in reality.

Will this change? Almost certainly not, but it is a problem all the same if you ask me.
personally i thought v3 was great and only needed extremely minor edits, but i haven't played a huge amount of v4 so maybe there are benefits i dont see.
2. The lack of City Incentives

Civil Protection?
Civil Protection are nearly impossible to convince to engage in shady activity as very few incentives exist within the faction to encourage such behavior (afaik). CP's are treated as Tier 8 citizens by default and have almost unlimited power granted to them. They do not feel the boot of the Combine as they should, so despite leads talking about how much they love the idea of rouge CP's, barely any IC incentive exists for such things.

The loyalist party
The single largest aspect of City RP. It is also completely and utterly useless. Even a Tier 6 citizen has practically zero power within, and certainly not without, the law. On top of being cut off from large portions of the map and more strictly watched by Civil Protection, most rebels would intentionally avoid achieving high tiers I imagine. Not even the assembly would appear to be worth the effort due to the highly impotent legislation that they mainly delve in. CCA also falls into this, I think, cause only two positions really matter afaik.

This is also ignoring that, despite having only very few benefits, high tiers are the hardest grind in the server by far - even further lowering their inherent value.

CWU/CMU?
CWU has some pretty harsh rogue rules that would deter most rebel activity. CMU is more lax in such respects, but I cannot speak much of this. However, given rebels have such mass supplies of gear, I can only imagine that infiltrating either faction is just not a high priority. Especially considering both factions put material restrictions to prevent one heist from murdering the entire economy. More of a happenstance convenience.

BOE?
Cracked newspapers look terrible and nobody uses them. Why rebels are not allowed to actually print pictures is completely and utterly beyond me. I have no idea why this request was denied in the past - but for the love of God - let rebels print half decent propaganda IC.

BRI?
No hard feelings

undefined
being in the city seems to only hurt, civil protection have a boner for running over as soon as they see someone swearing or whispering from across the map in a conversation that weren't part of and break all flow of roleplay. this means that if you want to have basic interaction without a stunstick up your ass, you're stuck in the slums. which ironically means civil protection runs out of people to bully for no reason, and the server's population is split. i don't know the details of rogue authorisations, but i do think that rogues should be possible.

imho the best way to handle authorisations for rebel groups is to give trusted rebel groups a small number of liberally powerful authorisations. every cop being a secret rebel agent is a problem, but if a rebel group can spend their major authorisation on a rogue auth for a cop with few strings attached that's a powerful deal and isn't overdone.

but the best way to make these factions desirable is for them to have some degree of tangible power. when the CWU member has power over whether a business is open or closed, this can be used by the CWU member or their friends for their own purposes. if there is no power to be gained and manipulated towards your own objectives, why try?

I agree with a buncha what you said. The whole RP scene in a whole also suffers from quality. I've seen so many rebels that don't even care to partake in RP. They just wanna sell shit to the NPC and go about their day. Lackluster /mes with such a trigger happy mindset makes for a troublesome rebel rp dynamic.
honestly this is what i saw when connecting to the server, i do not want to be mean but there's a bunch of low quality roleplayers out there. everyone's new at some point and needs to learn, but this RPG model really does allow people to game the server and become extraordinarily powerful with little to no roleplay at all.



one of the worst things you can do when managing a serious RP server is split populations, a server with 20 people who are in the same place and interacting with eachother beats a server of 30 people split into three different places with 10 in each any day of the week. in order to achieve the amount of interaction you need to go for, citizens should be able to interact relatively freely with civil protection and rebels should be able to visit the city in relative safety.

one massive pet peeve i have had about willard since it's launch is the extremely weird refusal to place a stash in the slums. there are stashes underground, there are stashes in the city - but never allowed in the slums. this is the easy way to make it easier for rebels to visit the city, since htey can safely store their gear. but as of now you have to go out into the city, risking a search by the cops who constantly watch the slums exits - so it's not worth the risk.

long term though: rebels need an objective, everyone needs an objective really. a rebel group should have an achievable long term objective they're working towards, and some achievable short term objectives they'd like to get done. without things that are being worked towards, there's no reason to be a rebel other than farming gear and waiting for the next event. on the same token, combine players and factions also need objectives - and both sides need to be able to interact/sabotage eachother.
 
I agree with a buncha what you said. The whole RP scene in a whole also suffers from quality. I've seen so many rebels that don't even care to partake in RP. They just wanna sell shit to the NPC and go about their day. Lackluster /mes with such a trigger happy mindset makes for a troublesome rebel rp dynamic.

a while ago i wanted to make a thread about hl2rp and the rebel mindset that details why the rebel gameplay loop/general playstyle attracts people who do not view roleplaying as a priority or even a necessity

the only way you can beat this out of them is to punish them by killing them. but they're more than likely to leave the server, and player count means more than anything else to the management in my humble opinion. it is more enjoyable right now to walk around the sewers and gather items with no conflict than it is to play a citizen and that shows deep incompetence from the people in charge

most everything that has been proposed that would give rebels something to contend with has been shot down, even when rebel "leads" agree with it and think it should be implemented as well

there's a soft bigotry of low expectations on the part of management when it comes to rebels. it's true that a lot of rebel players are shitters who don't roleplay but they should not be catered to
 
That's a good thesis question actually.

Does the advent of RPG style mechanics (Ease of access to weapons, emphasis on script collecting, and leveling) harm roleplay quality?
 
Does the advent of RPG style mechanics (Ease of access to weapons, emphasis on script collecting, and leveling) harm roleplay quality?
RPG mechanics almost necessarily detract from roleplay, but to some extent, they can be worth it to attract players and to create systems that are unbiased and need less staff oversight. We don't need BMD applications anymore (although do anyway lol) because we have a smuggler system, we don't need crafter applications anymore because we have a crafting skill system.

I generally thought when I played that because these skill systems were interdependent, you'd have to roleplay anyway. You can't really just be a crafter, you need a smuggler and a cook and a doctor in your group. The skill cap means you can never master every trade, or if you do you'll miss out on some combat skills. In my group mostly everyone increased their speed, their guns and then one "trade" skill of their choice per character. I don't know how much this is necessary because I'm not super involved in the rebel scene anymore.
 
It does need fixing I agree with a lot of what you said
 
RPG mechanics almost necessarily detract from roleplay, but to some extent, they can be worth it to attract players and to create systems that are unbiased and need less staff oversight. We don't need BMD applications anymore (although do anyway lol) because we have a smuggler system, we don't need crafter applications anymore because we have a crafting skill system.

I generally thought when I played that because these skill systems were interdependent, you'd have to roleplay anyway. You can't really just be a crafter, you need a smuggler and a cook and a doctor in your group. The skill cap means you can never master every trade, or if you do you'll miss out on some combat skills. In my group mostly everyone increased their speed, their guns and then one "trade" skill of their choice per character. I don't know how much this is necessary because I'm not super involved in the rebel scene anymore.

Ironic that we released bmd apps *after* smugglers lol
 
Ironic that we released bmd apps *after* smugglers lol
i was so annoyed that they never properly finished smuggling, we were so close to a fully automated rebel economy with no admin oversight required. maybe it wouldn't have worked out, but to stop just before you succeed is so sad and leaves smuggling pretty useless as a skill.
 
BOE?
Cracked newspapers look terrible and nobody uses them. Why rebels are not allowed to actually print pictures is completely and utterly beyond me. I have no idea why this request was denied in the past - but for the love of God - let rebels print half decent propaganda IC.

I for one would be very happy with Rebels getting the means to make their own propaganda that doesn't look like it's been made in MS paint. It'd be quite fun to have a propaganda war.
 
On the map:

Indigent should not be treated like a separate part of the city.

There. I've said it. Fundamentally by its very original design idea the main parts of Indigent should be patrolled on a often basis and not treated like some sort of segregated area on the map. The Freed Vortigaunts treat that section of the map as if it its commonly patrolled by the CP. Why don't the CP treat it like that?

Additionally, I would like to note that the rebels are capable of attacking the central part of the map and there is indeed secret ways to get into that part of the map such as the various walkways and the elevator at the back. However, in a stunning reversal of policy from the CP in the way that they treat indigent, it is effectively impossible to use any of these alternative back roads as they are either behind completely impenetrable Combine Doors or given their very own forcefields.
 
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Rebels have transformed immensely when compared to those of the so-titled "Bottlestreet Era."
What it was like to be a rebel back then is the old grind experience. It will sound like that I am a fucking boomer but it genuinely took a lot of time for rebels to scavenge materials to craft for even the most basic essential crafting equipment's like a toolkit, wrench. Workbenches was treated as the next step of the stage for the group and now it is more seen like you can beat down a block tree to make a crafting table to then mine stone to make a furnace. Weapons and armour crafting would take a lot of time to come around as the rare materials such as the refined items like reinforced metal or Strong adhesives and making an explosive material would starve out the group's material collection. Sniper rifles and DMRs weren't a thing and for a player be useful to craft or make chemical for the rebels would require you to be seen as a "Dr. Kleiner" genius.

What I will say there has been massive positive changes for the current rebels but now it feels like there isn't any fear factor applied to remind the rebels that what they are doing is seen as an act of terrorism and that their enemy could easily turn a good situation into a bad one in a matter of minutes.

2. The lack of City Incentives

Civil Protection?
Civil Protection are nearly impossible to convince to engage in shady activity as very few incentives exist within the faction to encourage such behavior (afaik). CP's are treated as Tier 8 citizens by default and have almost unlimited power granted to them. They do not feel the boot of the Combine as they should, so despite leads talking about how much they love the idea of rouge CP's, barely any IC incentive exists for such things.
From experience, some of the CP players do fear of facing PK due to actually making their characters have a soul and not with the robo-cop mentality. But from what they would gain if they were to face against the rebels would somewhat feel more harsher to them than the rebels as failure after an assault will be given a punishment, weapon usage from both side could be drastically unfair as CP could immediately start with the better gear against the new Rebel but as time goes on, the same rebel will then be given powerful weapons that could either out range CPs or be more destructive. Rebels has vortigaunts that can instantly heal their teammates while CPs are supplied with medical equipment that would either prevent blood loss or give a painkiller stimulant and only a handful of CPs are given the ability to apply a better medical treatment and still then, the health bar takes a bit of time to reform to a better status. But then there is the question "Why don't the OTA be sent in to handle the dirty work?". There is rules that prevents their engagement and the only way the requirements will be met is when there is enough damage done to the combine in general and by the time the OTA prep themselves to handle the attack, almost all the time would the rebel gets away to an unreachable space due to either vacating to the outlands or hiding in their base that we have no IC knowledge to work with (and I am not saying it is wrong that they do this. Its just the common direction that tends to happen).

The everyday CP player requires a motivation to be engaging towards rebels and so far they aren't able to be intrusive against the rebels without solid IC evidence to suggest so and allow them to make their move, the reward could sometimes feel hollow for what they gone through.
 
I think it's a-lot simpler than most are making out. It's just pretty much all the rebels are morons who are fully script focused and nothing else.

Scripts are fine, I think that system of grinding is actually good because it gives a-lot of players a reason to log on.

I took a bit of a hiatus from the server, and the past week or so I've been back, my first observation was that all the rebels were just utterly stupid. Most sit in the sewers, internally rp'ng with no ulterior motive other than to sell to the citizens. But when they do rp, they're not even playing a character. They're playing themselves without a thought to anything their doing.

If we look at the other factions however, no issues really at all relating to any of the things mentioned above. I think there just needs to be heavy staff intervention, and more of a filtration system of not allowing completely fucking anyone to put a few hours into the server, and getting a gun and calling themselves a rebel. It cheapens the entire experience, as the rebels hold such an important foothold in the world, and have a lot of influence over the new players.
 
As someone who is heavily invested in fixing RP (Rebel side in particular), I would actually like to know the full-top down solution most people would like to see implemented to try and kick the majority of rebels who choose to be script hunters all day even if it may cause some of them to leave in an act of bitterness towards whatever we were to implement.

Since I do want Rebels to do more and there are a few event chains which give access to sides to take part but when you look at it internally, only the Combine/Citizen side chooses to do anything while Rebels refrain from partaking in the dark events. It is quite saddening that RP is pretty much dead on the Rebel side and I say this not as staff or developer... but as a player given my prior experience and playtime in the Bottlestreet Era where we had Sunrise, Dutchman and BottleStreet all as highly active and RP-friendly groups, sure there were a few hiccups with the metagame, but that is honestly a general RP issue on every server ever.

One could say the best Rebel RP was the Bottlestreet Era with all those groups. We had rebels in infiltration positions. We had Rebels running stores with secret underground trade networks and negotiations between groups to form alliances, plans moving forward which would of eventually come out as something great... but those plans had never come to be since the introduction of MOC with its transaction logs destroyed the possibility of Rebels. You then have things like the DOB causing quite a lot of issues with stores and well, let's be real Stores are DEAD, never to be revived again due to certain people's actions.

So once again, I would like someone or quite a few of you to present what ideas you have in mind, even if harsh, for kicking the RP Quality back into gear for all sides, including that heavily of the Rebels which most do nothing on (Except a few who are trying to be the Rebels people want but barely play to avoid the "bad" rebels)
 
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