Changing Metagame Rules

[Fedora]

This is a big server, and it is completely designed around IC interaction. Information is important. Even something as mundane as your current location could be considered important in certain situations. Therefore, we say that any IC info should not cross the OOC boundary in any way, and that if it does, its considered metagame. That is why our rules currently state this.

Even with locations, if you tell your location in IC means ie. through a radio and someone is listening in, it can create more RP because that person might come over to where you are whether they are another rebel, CP or whatever. With the OOC pm, no one knows except you and the other person that you are going to meet up, which can be argued that you are getting an advantage because you have that knowledge that "oh, no one is going to intercept me or do something at this location that is not to my benefit" and it may not bring around more RP.

 

[Cavity]

Can't wait until I start bombing the plaza again after this 1-month ban is up

( I think a 30 day ban was excessive )

 

[Teesk]

I have also been banned alongside TRL for the metagaming since we met up ingame to RP.

While yes, what we did was metagaming and should also be punished, I was also originally banned for 30d but it has been reduced to 7d which I'm thankful for.

While I wouldnt even go as far as to change the rules entirely, TRL has a point. We met up to RP, not to have an advantage over other people in any kind of way. Should we have been punished? Yes. Should our interactions result in a 30d ban? I dont think so.

I played on other RP servers (HL2, RDR2, GTA) and for a 30d ban you had to commit a major rulebreak. I also know every server handles their own rules and how restrictive they are, but we were not using Discord to coordinate an attack on Nexus or to PK someone. We simply exchanged PMs to meet up to RP.

I believe there should be a huge difference of the severity of the ban between these two rulebreaks since the result on the server/community as a whole is wildly different. One leads to the RP story of the server changing in its entirety while the other one just speeds up a conversation we would have had anyways 30-60 minutes later when we would have ran into each other by coincidence.

Even with locations, if you tell your location in IC means ie. through a radio and someone is listening in, it can create more RP because that person might come over to where you are whether they are another rebel, CP or whatever. With the OOC pm, no one knows except you and the other person that you are going to meet up, which can be argued that you are getting an advantage because you have that knowledge that "oh, no one is going to intercept me or do something at this location that is not to my benefit" and it may not bring around more RP.

I, however, also believe that this is also true. If we used a radio instead, there would have been a minor chance that a CP catches/hears us using it leading to a different outcome. Big emphasis on the minor chance here since I havent seen any rebel/outlaws using a radio in the middle of plaza and you always do it in a safe environment.

30d is still too long for such a rulebreak imho. It shouldnt have been that long in the first place

 

[Teesk]

Yeah, I wanna chime in on this a touch.

A lot of things might seem inconsequential to you, but in the grand scheme of things, they break people's immersion big time. Using modern slang, such as "Bruh", can be very immersion breaking for some given the setting of the server. Considering how this is an RP server, maintaining immersion is our top priority. So, if someone is coming in saying stuff like that IC, they will be warned to stop, and I do think that is a reasonable thing to do.

Also, I can promise you that generating a bunch of warns & bans is not an activity requirement for admins. The main thing we end up looking at is things like playtime, in game ticket responses, as well as forums activities for those whom sit in roles which are primarily on the forums (PK appeals, for example), and a few other metrics. None of those things include how many bans/warns were made by X.

Something I appreciate about this server is the immersion compared to other HL2RP servers which are less focused on RP.

But, I remember a situation where I was standing around in front of my appartment block for close to 1h because there was nothing really going on on the server in general and TLR PMed me to meet up which we then did.

Immersion is fine but it shouldnt be to an extent where it completly sucks out any other fun aspect of the game. I probably would have logged off otherwise and would have not contributed anything to the RP and immersion on the server. When we met up, we were atleast still present, talking to each other and roleplaying which is better imo then being too bored and logging off.

 

[ramen]

This thread reeks of

 

[Rebel RP Philosopher]

went to culinary school specifically to avoid ACT exams sir please no

Bro, do you know how to make fried potato mash? I yearn.

 

[TRL]

The issue here is the nature of things such as rules in a game where you can conceivably do anything.

This sort of hinges upon something you mentioned above: 'using the system to wantonly metagame critical information'. What constitutes 'critical information'? Try as you might, I don't think that you can necessarily nail down a definition that would fit every possible scenario because its impossible. There will always be edge cases, and exceptions, and possibilities that you could never even concieve of where someone might abuse such a thing. Infinite possibilities, in fact. As someone who's played this gamemode for over a decade, I can garuntee you that even the tiniest things can easily lead to a PK.

This is a big server, and it is completely designed around IC interaction. Information is important. Even something as mundane as your current location could be considered important in certain situations. Therefore, we say that any IC info should not cross the OOC boundary in any way, and that if it does, its considered metagame. That is why our rules currently state this.

Well, the rule change I proposed doesn't actually mention anything about critical information, it just changes the rules to "The act of using Out-Of-Character info to your own advantage In-Character with there being no realistic way for characters or players to acquire said information." I might have just been trying to be overly flavorful with my talking points, sorry. And to be frank it really is easy to ensure this rule is followed- realistic means within the realm of possibility and the realm of plausibility. These problems you are addressing aren't issues in any other servers I've played on. For example, in the other servers I mentioned, this rule is used, and it works perfectly fine. It's something that's been proven to have worked for other text-based videogame servers with a similar playercount.

I've also been playing HL2RP for nearly a decade, good to see another veteran around! Started around 2014, I think, back on CombineControl. Though I really do have to disagree here with your point of how the tiniest things can leak to PKs- you're kind of blowing the whole point out of proportion here- like in a grand, butterfly effect scale? Possibly. But that isn't a good argument to base on. After all, using that logic I could very easily say that simply being online during peak hours drastically increases my chance of a PK, as opposed if I only played during off times. It's not a very compelling argument.

I wanna highlight what you said here, because I think we are actually on the same point here: "Even something as mundane as your current location could be considered important in certain situations." And yes, you're right! In certain situations!!! If I was trying to leak my location during a sweep, or maybe to alert my CP buddies I was being robbed? That's blatant metagame with the intent to tilt the scales in my favor! Other situations don't have any sort of advantage whatsoever, and shouldn't be treated the same way.

 

[TRL]

Even with locations, if you tell your location in IC means ie. through a radio and someone is listening in, it can create more RP because that person might come over to where you are whether they are another rebel, CP or whatever. With the OOC pm, no one knows except you and the other person that you are going to meet up, which can be argued that you are getting an advantage because you have that knowledge that "oh, no one is going to intercept me or do something at this location that is not to my benefit" and it may not bring around more RP.

I'm sorry, but offering the radio as an alternative is a really disingenuous way of trying to invalidate my argument. The radio requires you to grind resources and level your crafting skill, neither of which are roleplay-based whatsoever. There is no way to acquire a radio purely through roleplay: At some point in time, it had to have either been grinded out by a player or purchased by someone who grinded it out for you (and you also still have to grind to get the money to buy it, btw!)

Secondly, radios are, ICly, highly illegal items. This means that you essentially create a scenario in which certain groups and factions are able to use this "IC pm system" as you're trying to make it out to be, while at the same time other groups and players have to risk their items and in some instances their entire character just to use the system you provided due to the in-character considerations. The phone systems put in place by Willard are no better, and in many instances even worse: There are only a few select areas in which players may use them, and they aren't equitably spread across the map, allowing for easy access amongst all parties equally. They are only in areas that are generally off-limits to rebellious players.
I think this scenario would hold a lot more weight if radios were not restricted to those who strictly wanted to go down an illegal or rebellious path, or if mobile phones existed which allowed players to "ICly dm" one another via such a device.

Thirdly, do you have any examples of the current radio system being used to intercept transmissions, and then having those transmissions be utilized to further RP in any way?

Fourthly, this statement: "oh, no one is going to intercept me or do something at this location that is not to my benefit" is assuming the worst from people for no reason. If these sorts of individuals exist, and are using systems in a way to avoid RP, you can simply investigate to see if it's rule, and if so, warn or ban them from the server like you did me. People who do this on the servers I originally took this idea from are caught very easily.


EDIT: Forgot to mention radios make a loud-ass noise whenever a message is sent, making it nigh impossible to use one in any area that has even a miniscule police presence. You are unable to use one discreetly. Trying to make a highly illegal, obnoxiously loud, and hard to get item as a reliable and effecient alternative to doing basic coordination like saying: "Hey man I'm around, wanna RP?" is super disingenuous to my argument.

 

[TRL]

Bro, do you know how to make fried potato mash? I yearn.

Off the top of my head, you probably want to first create a raw potato patty thing and cook it, then seperately apply flour, whisked eggs, and then breadcrumbs to that patty. Then you'd wanna deep-fry it for about.... maybe a minute or two? At least till golden brown. You could do that in deep saute pan if you want. I'd reccomend adding salt and pepper to at least one, if not all of your dredging mixes. A little spice like paprika could work too.

I still use tons of websites all the time for my recipes, so be sure to consult an actual recipe book before following my advice

 

[TRL]

False.

False.

True.

---

What you're trying to do now is try to turn yourself into the victim because your metagame ban appeal got denied. That's the real reason you've made this thread.

We're not changing the ruleset regarding metagame. It's pretty clear what's defined as metagame and metabait already. If you can't be bothered to talk to people in-character to exchange in-character information, then don't do it.

Regardless, I'll leave this thread open for a little bit so others can discuss. Maybe there's a chance some actual insightful discussion may happen anyway.

Hey, just realized something so I'm gonna reply to this again. I made two appeals, one to get information, and one for the original ban. You said the original two were false here. This makes it seem like I'm trying to mislead people. However...

Here was the evidence provided, which came from the following scenarios I outlined in my original argument! If anyone at all has a question regarding the context of any of these PMs, please lmk!!!!!! I'd be more than happy to elaborate as I did for staff.

- If you have contacted someone over discord asking them when they'd be on, or that you'd be online at a certain time to roleplay, that would count as metagaming.
- If you tried to work around timezone differences and trying to organize a date to play together, this would be metagaming.
- If you contact someone to conduct roleplay and state your at a spot to meet with them to RP, you are metagaming.


Here is the first ban appeal which was wholesale denied, citing the evidence (first picture.)



Here is the second appeal, in which the ban was reduced, but not because any mistake on your guys' end: As stated, it was only due to someone else having done more than myself, and we got the same punishment. I also had a talk with @Fedora explaining a little bit more about my case, and I'm assuming he forwarded all that information to you guys on the team. So, even when you had all the context, it was stated to me that the ONLY REASON I was getting a reduction was due to it being a first offense and someone else did more than me. That was why I made that original first statement: Because you guys got the context, and then proceeded to inform me.

You might be unintentionally spreading misinformation, so I wanted to clear it up for anyone following the thread. The above reasons I mentioned were deemed as metagame by multiple staff members, even after I gave them the context of said statements.

 

[wh00p]

Yeah, I wanna chime in on this a touch.

A lot of things might seem inconsequential to you, but in the grand scheme of things, they break people's immersion big time. Using modern slang, such as "Bruh", can be very immersion breaking for some given the setting of the server. Considering how this is an RP server, maintaining immersion is our top priority. So, if someone is coming in saying stuff like that IC, they will be warned to stop, and I do think that is a reasonable thing to do.

Also, I can promise you that generating a bunch of warns & bans is not an activity requirement for admins. The main thing we end up looking at is things like playtime, in game ticket responses, as well as forums activities for those whom sit in roles which are primarily on the forums (PK appeals, for example), and a few other metrics. None of those things include how many bans/warns were made by X.

Can you define immersion in your own words? To me personally, I feel like many users involved with Willards had lost the meaning of immersion.

Immersion is the visuals, the game, the way you can be just about anything in an unreal and fictional environment (not to sound like a geek or anything). I don't think anyone using a modern term like "Bruh" or "Boykisser" shouldn't be an issue despite its illogical use, unless the parties involved in the roleplay aren't fine with it.

Personally, I know the guy who got warned for using "Boykisser", and the parties involved were seemingly fine with it but he was still warned. Even despite the fact you're concerned about people "breaking other peoples immersion", it doesn't seem to me that the administration actually cares about what the player thinks.

Trust me, I 100% get your frustration (haha) , but try to be a bit more civil please.. Nobody has ever listened to someone trying to put them down God knows I wouldn't!

I am trying my best to remain civil. I just wish that Neonity could perform better than they currently are. I'm trying to be constructive, and I'm sorry if what I said came out rude.

 

[osmangazi]

no. ban all the metagamers permanently

 

[M!NT]

I wanna highlight what you said here, because I think we are actually on the same point here: "Even something as mundane as your current location could be considered important in certain situations." And yes, you're right! In certain situations!!! If I was trying to leak my location during a sweep, or maybe to alert my CP buddies I was being robbed? That's blatant metagame with the intent to tilt the scales in my favor! Other situations don't have any sort of advantage whatsoever, and shouldn't be treated the same way.

Thats the crux of the issue. As long as there is any exception which states that its okay in 'certain situations' then it will never work. Any time we leave rules 'up to interpretation' its near guaranteed that it will eventually result in a drama fest as we all debate what the vague rule really means, and how it applies to specific situations.

When the rules are very vague like that it just leaves the door open for discussion, and drama, and confusion about what IS and what ISN'T metagame.

In a game such as this there are infinite possibilities. Perhaps someone reads that rule and thinks its okay to say something like "Hey, I saw X hanging out at Y." to someone through DMs. What if the person they're DMing goes and confronts X, and it leads to a PK? In the appeal it will likely come out that it all happened because of a PM, and then we've got to deal with a PK appeal, which leads to us banning some player for something that the rules don't explicitly state is against the rules.

The alternative is to outlaw it completely and say that IC info has to stay IC in all circumstances. This is what the rules state currently, and what I expect they will continue to say moving forward. This makes it clear to everyone what is right, and what is wrong. There is no room for vague interpretations which, in the past, have been weaponized to ban people for things that aren't metagame, or has lead to a ton of drama over something that clearly is.

 

[M!NT]

Can you define immersion in your own words? To me personally, I feel like many users involved with Willards had lost the meaning of immersion.

Immersion is the visuals, the game, the way you can be just about anything in an unreal and fictional environment (not to sound like a geek or anything). I don't think anyone using a modern term like "Bruh" or "Boykisser" shouldn't be an issue despite its illogical use, unless the parties involved in the roleplay aren't fine with it.

Personally, I know the guy who got warned for using "Boykisser", and the parties involved were seemingly fine with it but he was still warned. Even despite the fact you're concerned about people "breaking other peoples immersion", it doesn't seem to me that the administration actually cares about what the player thinks.

I'm going to start this by saying that a warning is just a warning, and little else. Not exactly a grand thing to be using as some example of injustice in the middle of a thread discussing the details of what should and shouldn't be considered metagame.

Regardless, I do agree that 'immersion' is a bit of a vague word. So, let me use a synonym to better describe what I'm really talking about here: suspension of disbelief. The concept that, to enjoy a fictional narrative, one must suspend their critical thinking- "that can't be possible". The world of half-life is one of complex alien life, teleportation, sci-fi technology, etc etc.. For one to be immersed in such a world, they must suspend their disbelief that such a world is impossible in reality.

For that reason its important that the characters which inhabit such a world feel believable within the narrative. In the world of half life, pop culture stops at ~2001 once the portal storms begin and society starts to collapse. So, it is highly unlikely that modern internet speech would develop and become something that people would actually say. So saying such things in character is immersion-breaking at best. In my opinion it falls under the category of Fail RP. Thats just me, personally.

Its the same thing as making a character named "Ryan Gossling". While, it might be reasonable that someone would have such a name, it also rips people of their suspension of disbelief as it clashes with reality. For that reason, people are not allowed to do it. If they do it then they are warned not to do it again. So, I still fail to see the issue here in the specific incidents you've mentioned above.

I am trying my best to remain civil. I just wish that Neonity could perform better than they currently are. I'm trying to be constructive, and I'm sorry if what I said came out rude.

I honestly think that most people on the staff team would've done the same thing in the same circumstances that you've mentioned earlier. Personally, I would've done the exact same thing. So, for that reason I don't think its exactly constructive for you to single her out specifically for this.

 

[TRL]

Thats the crux of the issue. As long as there is any exception which states that its okay in 'certain situations' then it will never work. Any time we leave rules 'up to interpretation' its near guaranteed that it will eventually result in a drama fest as we all debate what the vague rule really means, and how it applies to specific situations.

When the rules are very vague like that it just leaves the door open for discussion, and drama, and confusion about what IS and what ISN'T metagame.

In a game such as this there are infinite possibilities. Perhaps someone reads that rule and thinks its okay to say something like "Hey, I saw X hanging out at Y." to someone through DMs. What if the person they're DMing goes and confronts X, and it leads to a PK? In the appeal it will likely come out that it all happened because of a PM, and then we've got to deal with a PK appeal, which leads to us banning some player for something that the rules don't explicitly state is against the rules.

The alternative is to outlaw it completely and say that IC info has to stay IC in all circumstances. This is what the rules state currently, and what I expect they will continue to say moving forward. This makes it clear to everyone what is right, and what is wrong. There is no room for vague interpretations which, in the past, have been weaponized to ban people for things that aren't metagame, or has lead to a ton of drama over something that clearly is.

Well, it should be okay in certain situations. And it has worked. I literally showed you two different roleplay servers that have this exact interpretation of the rules. And they are also serious, text-based roleplay servers with both forums and an active discord community. What I'm proposing isn't theory- it HAS worked, it IS helpful, and you're trying to argue it isn't by saying it's some sort of untested hypothesis rather than a longstanding standard amongst multiple gaming roleplay communities.

The rule I propose isn't vague. You need a realistic connection to the information that is relayed or referred too. It's realistic to have your character find another character in their apartment. It isn't realistic for your character to randomly switch frequencies to the exact channel your friend is on without being told prior IC. That's the difference you outline. I don't understand how this wouldn't work for Willard when it works for countless other servers.

In that case, it'd be metagame, because this hypothetical was pm'ed information they wouldn't realistically have access too, which would be that "X is at Y". If the player then PKed X, it'd be metagame. And it'd be metagame because of the hostile intentions, and the fact it was unfair for X to be targeted via OOC means.

It would NOT be metagame for two friends to dm one another, and one says they're in a particular location. Like their apartment block, or around the Grizzly Grotto. Because if the characters already met before, and nobody is getting hurt from it, there's no harm in it occuring. Should we also prevent anyone from actually shooting their gun due to risk from mass-RDM? After all, you could just roleplay shooting each other and have a voluntary /kill command for when the fighting is done. You need to trust that people are going to be responsible, and the players then need to trust that people that aren't acting responsibly will be handled by the team.

 

[Headcrab]

Metagaming is bad period, if you're using it to game the system, or exchanging information that you wouldn't / shouldn't / couldn't've gotten ICly to avoid situations or make certain things happen, that's on you. I think the rule is fine how it is.

 

[Rebel RP Philosopher]

Off the top of my head, you probably want to first create a raw potato patty thing and cook it, then seperately apply flour, whisked eggs, and then breadcrumbs to that patty. Then you'd wanna deep-fry it for about.... maybe a minute or two? At least till golden brown. You could do that in deep saute pan if you want. I'd reccomend adding salt and pepper to at least one, if not all of your dredging mixes. A little spice like paprika could work too.

I still use tons of websites all the time for my recipes, so be sure to consult an actual recipe book before following my advice

God

 

[Rabid]

There will always be edge cases, and exceptions, and possibilities that you could never even concieve of where someone might abuse such a thing. Infinite possibilities, in fact. As someone who's played this gamemode for over a decade, I can garuntee you that even the tiniest things can easily lead to a PK.

On top of this, there will always be players who will seek to exploit loopholes and escape judgement on technicalities. It happens in every single community and it is generally always better to close obvious loopholes before they can be exploited rather than waiting for a justification to do it anyway.

 

[Rebel RP Philosopher]

On top of this, there will always be players who will seek to exploit loopholes and escape judgement on technicalities. It happens in every single community and it is generally always better to close obvious loopholes before they can be exploited rather than waiting for a justification to do it anyway.

Again, PK lawyers is more and more becoming a thing

 

[TRL]

Hey, it's been awhile and considering I don't see any more posts regarding the topic at hand I'd like to ask a staff member to please close it. @M!NT , @Fedora , @Neonity I appreciate having this discussion and hope it provided some good discourse for all involved. Thanks for the chance to talk!