Fixing Resistance RP For Good

[M!NT]

For months I have seen some threads (and discord conversations) cover this in bits and pieces. Most of them are something along the lines of: "I think rebel RP sucks, here's why". Despite all the heated discussion on this topic, I think very few solutions have been offered. So, that is what I will attempt to do in this thread- provide a solution.

However, before I can present a solution, I must illuminate the problem.

Problem Statement
The issue with Rebels can be summed up as a simple cause and effect.

Cause: Gameplay
Rebels currently have a tough life on Willard. Most characters outside the city are busy; hooked into a never ending item grinding loop as pictured below:



I believe this is what causes most of the issues for Rebel players, even if it isn't the direct cause for their frustration. The roots of these issues grow deep, and this gameplay loop is the bedrock of rebel RP currently.

This is because items are important. I cannot just lean back in my chair and say "You do not need items to RP." THAT FIXES NOTHING.
Stop pointing fingers at each other and blaming this as an issue with the playerbase. IT IS NOT THEIR FAULT.

If you don't read anything in this thread, AT LEAST READ THIS:
If you want to get the playerbase to do something, specifically Rebels, you must reward them somehow (scripts and/or development).

Items act as an incentive; a reward for doing something. Players will always gravitate towards the path of least resistance in these cases, which is the core reason why so many players spend countless hours following this soul crushing gameplay loop.

As Madcombat once said, "We are not rewarding players for RPing"

Effect: Lack of Development/Staleness
Rebel characters typically have very little progression. Their progression opportunities are pictured below:



Grinding their characters this way causes them to become stale, because they have everything to lose and nothing to gain.

Solution:
There are long term solutions, and short term solutions. Some things will take months to do, some things we could do in a few weeks if we put the reins in the hands of someone who is capable.

Keep in mind that I am just a dev, so consider this more of a call to action than anything else.

Short term solution:

NOTE: All of this can be done now, and with little code support. It just requires passionate people which are directed effectively. We have plenty of passionate people, but little direction. I think this will be resolved in time.

1. Reduce trash spawners on the map. There would be outrage if you got rid of them entirely. However, with them present, the points below will have little impact.
2. (LFC WAS SUPPOSED TO DO THIS) build a community of refugees out in the slums. Use the items coming from their supply lines to act as supplies for the community. ICly find capable characters and delegate the following tasks to them.
   1. Build a clinic
   2. Clean up the decrepit and abandoned buildings
   3. Set up a kitchen to feed the needy, and the kitchen via supply lines. (more impactful if death from hunger/thirst is turned back on)
   4. Enact a list of rules for the community, and pick characters to see to it that those rules are followed.
3. (LFC WAS SUPPOSED TO DO THIS) offer characters a story line to follow. Rebel groups can team up to go out on small events which accomplish some sort of goal for the community. These events might be risky, so the rewards should be plentiful for these. Especially because they can be incredibly impactful for the entire server if done correctly.
4. For characters who do not participate in the community for whatever reason, give them similar opportunities. Events should be frequent and plentiful. We want players to do their own events. So, reward them for this. Also, we should make the system for this be as frictionless and rapid as possible. If the CT team is able to accomplish this, it could completely stop characters from having to grind if they don't want to.

NOTE: This requires the Creative Team to be effectively directed and managed. This can be done, and people who say its impossible do not help anyone. Lets work together to get something that works. If CT members have a list of things to do, firm direction, and good organization, I think they will be able to accomplish this easily.

Long term solution:

1. Abolish repetative grinding loops which do not serve RP. However, this requires there to be some new sort of gameplay mechanism to come into replace it. I have something in mind, but that'll have to wait for a different thread.

 

[toby]

I disagree with you disagreeing with salty who agrees with me

I dont wanna lose mah hats

 

[Kappatalist]

(LFC WAS SUPPOSED TO DO THIS) build a community of refugees out in the slums. Use the items coming from their supply lines to act as supplies for the community. ICly find capable characters and delegate the following tasks to them.

1. Build a clinic
2. Clean up the decrepit and abandoned buildings
3. Set up a kitchen to feed the needy, and the kitchen via supply lines. (more impactful if death from hunger/thirst is turned back on)
4. Enact a list of rules for the community, and pick characters to see to it that those rules are followed.

I wanna talk about this point in particular, coming back to this after yesterday. Something like this was avoided for a long time because it has an obvious problem: giving rebel players a place in the slums to hide away from the main 'city' will kill off said main city if there's no reason to be there. This hurts Citizen and Loyalist RP, and I think Citizens are probably the most important faction and what every decision should consider.

This was purposefully avoided by Willard early on by making the slums a very dangerous place to be, but nowadays CPs rarely sweep for fear of upsetting rebels/being overwhelmed by arguably better supplied groups than them.

In my own opinion the slums should stop being seen as a separate entity to the 'city' and simply be seen as a more shadier side of town where the long arm of the regime can in fact still reach (like it was on launch, minus the alpha headcrabs and hordes staff put there for some reason). The server can't support an opposing Loyalist and Rebel district, they can't go unchecked here because sooner or later it'll just turn into Shanty Town 2.0 and we've been there, done that - it sucks.

Events are being covered by other people and I'm confident we'll have something good at the end of it, so I'll just focus on the idea of a rebel community in the slums (I'm aware you specifically said refugees, but like the homeless shelter, if it's not considered people will openly be rebels here). Rebels always need to be mingled in with the Loyalists and Citizens - like I said earlier, Citizens are the faction in HL2RP that need to be catered to. Throughout the months it seems Willard's strayed from it's original idea of unarmed surface rebels only donning gear when need be, and it's been slowly turning into the same sewer rebel type of scene it's been trying to avoid from the start. Certainly when I was staff it'd be quite common to see people running around the slums in their full gear, this isn't exactly helped by the fact I'm aware that a few staff BMD characters have encouraged other players to join in by doing this themselves.

The easy solution I see would be to increase CP patrols and sweeps in said slums, that's easier said than done though. CP's obviously don't want to patrol and sweep when there's a big risk of being killed, but by not doing so the problem will grow to the point I've mentioned before. Likewise, rebel players will always complain when they're killed by a CP sweep regardless of what they were doing at the time. I'd like to hear opinions about this, especially from CP players.

tl;dr make sure it stays as a refugee/outcast community and not some public revolutionaries walking around like it's the storming of the Bastille. I know people don't like this, but it will kill the server.

 

[Rabid]

The easy solution I see would be to increase CP patrols and sweeps in said slums, that's easier said than done though. CP's obviously don't want to patrol and sweep when there's a big risk of being killed, but by not doing so the problem will grow to the point I've mentioned before. Likewise, rebel players will always complain when they're killed by a CP sweep regardless of what they were doing at the time. I'd like to hear opinions about this, especially from CP players.

I know this may be controversial but one of the best tools that staff can have for helping rebels thrive is a CP faction that doesn't face excessive loss on death.

Why? Because as much as they have nothing to lose (and so yes you will always have bad faith actors), they also have nothing to gain by going hardcore on people. Its much easier for a willing faction lead to ask a CP faction to go easy - or for it to become second nature for them - when a loss in an NLR for them.

Right now though CP's stand to lose everything just like rebels do. What does that result in? A complete lack of mercy. If I'm being forced (via server balance and faction mandate) to risk my character by going in as a response team to something player rebels have done, what incentive do I have to let them go when any one of them could pull a gun and murder my character dead? That's just common sense. Its PVP, and if I don't "win" then I'm likely to get PK'd.

I think this is something WN missed entirely when advocating for "fairness" between factions. They're expected to kill eachother, but one is forced into being the aggressor by nature and then chastized for playing to win when they have everything to lose. Its no wonder, y'know? I've seen plenty of times in other communities where CP's have organically bumped into rebels during a sweep and both sides have parted ways without violence because of the risk.

I've never heard of that happening on WN because neither side has any reason to do it.

 

[Kappatalist]

I know this may be controversial but one of the best tools that staff can have for helping rebels thrive is a CP faction that doesn't face excessive loss on death.

Why? Because as much as they have nothing to lose (and so yes you will always have bad faith actors), they also have nothing to gain by going hardcore on people. Its much easier for a willing faction lead to ask a CP faction to go easy - or for it to become second nature for them - when a loss in an NLR for them.

Right now though CP's stand to lose everything just like rebels do. What does that result in? A complete lack of mercy. If I'm being forced (via server balance and faction mandate) to risk my character by going in as a response team to something player rebels have done, what incentive do I have to let them go when any one of them could pull a gun and murder my character dead? That's just common sense. Its PVP, and if I don't "win" then I'm likely to get PK'd.

I think this is something WN missed entirely when advocating for "fairness" between factions. They're expected to kill eachother, but one is forced into being the aggressor by nature and then chastized for playing to win when they have everything to lose. Its no wonder, y'know? I've seen plenty of times in other communities where CP's have organically bumped into rebels during a sweep and both sides have parted ways without violence because of the risk.

I've never heard of that happening on WN because neither side has any reason to do it.

I supported this change when it was done and did so pretty strongly.

Now? I'm not entirely sure it was for the best. You're right, and I think CP's are definitely more of an OOC tool to keep Citizens and Rebels on their toes and things interesting and the RP going, even if they can enjoy the RP doing it, that's what they are to me essentially.

I always went with the idea that Combine factions should play to lose for the most part (This doesn't mean losing every fight, but it means letting people have a chance, a chance to escape, a chance to survive an encounter, or missing your shots in a gunfight), because dying is nothing to them, they don't work for their gear but they do for their character and rank. Now I'm not sure which is preferable, losing your rank, or your character? But right now - correct me if I'm wrong, but they lose both. I think this should be looked at again, because when the stakes are so high for CPs they have to play to win. On TerraNova, for example, this wasn't the case. CPs would p2l and shoot to miss, they existed to create RP for others, not to get that W. (Even rebels did this a lot, I can't speak for everybody of course, but TN turned on infinite ammo for everybody so they could s2m instead of fighting to the death like a CSS match. It was just that sort of server, and I'm not saying the same fixes can be applied to Willard, but it's something to consider and to look at what other servers have done.)

Here's something relevant in the TN3 CP Guide, I'll link a copy of it for people to read if they want to take some inspiration from a system which obviously worked to encourage RP:

"If your character dies, you will get another unit of an equivalent rank. We do this to make sure that you are invested in the roleplay and don’t lose all your progress over a bad situation"​

​

I think, if CPs were treated more as a vessel for RP and not an opposing team like a first person shooter, we'd see a better server for everyone. Before this change though, CPs did still play to win sometimes, but then again Willard's CPs were built by Spine afaik and we all know how they were back then.

Here's the guide if anyone is interested in seeing it.

Also, I'll ping @ClapTrap since this is relevant to him.

 

[Cocohop]

Right now though CP's stand to lose everything just like rebels do. What does that result in? A complete lack of mercy. If I'm being forced (via server balance and faction mandate) to risk my character by going in as a response team to something player rebels have done, what incentive do I have to let them go when any one of them could pull a gun and murder my character dead? That's just common sense. Its PVP, and if I don't "win" then I'm likely to get PK'd.

I understand this POV. However, my experience was the opposite. When CPs had nothing to lose, I straight up saw things like a Rank Leader (You know who you are) leaving the main CP force in a sweep, and going rambo on a group of 8 rebels fully geared up with Kevlars, AKs, the works.
Personal opinion.

 

[Kappatalist]

I understand this POV. However, my experience was the opposite. When CPs had nothing to lose, I straight up saw things like a Rank Leader (You know who you are) leaving the main CP force in a sweep, and going rambo on a group of 8 rebels fully geared up with Kevlars, AKs, the works.
Personal opinion.

I saw this myself. I also saw it again when it was a PK on death - better oversight by CP leadership should stop this from happening and encourage a fairer mindset, it's doable, perfectly doable. But the effort wasn't made.

 

[Rabid]

I understand this POV. However, my experience was the opposite. When CPs had nothing to lose, I straight up saw things like a Rank Leader (You know who you are) leaving the main CP force in a sweep, and going rambo on a group of 8 rebels fully geared up with Kevlars, AKs, the works.
Personal opinion.

I saw this myself. I also saw it again when it was a PK on death - better oversight by CP leadership should stop this from happening and encourage a fairer mindset, it's doable, perfectly doable. But the effort wasn't made.

I agree that it happened back then - and it'll happen regardless unfortunately because some people are like that. You literally can't control absolutely every faction member at all times.

Cops are needed for server balance on a very fundemental level and forcing them to do that and protect the character they enjoy at the same time just leads to the same sort of behaviours we've seen over the past year since this rule first came into being, like cops double-tapping downed rebels or murdering everyone in an area out of fear of being killed in return.

You have to remember that the WN staff know this is a neccesity for cops to do. If they didn't we wouldn't have seen OTA deployed so much to make sure rebels didn't get away without reprocussions where cops would have been absolutely slaughtered and there'd have been a backlash over massive character loss. Its been done before plenty of times.

 

[M!NT]

tl;dr make sure it stays as a refugee/outcast community and not some public revolutionaries walking around like it's the storming of the Bastille. I know people don't like this, but it will kill the server.

I'm really tired of hearing that this and that will 'kill the server'. I think its an exaggeration.

In my own opinion the slums should stop being seen as a separate entity to the 'city' and simply be seen as a more shadier side of town where the long arm of the regime can in fact still reach (like it was on launch, minus the alpha headcrabs and hordes staff put there for some reason). The server can't support an opposing Loyalist and Rebel district, they can't go unchecked here because sooner or later it'll just turn into Shanty Town 2.0 and we've been there, done that - it sucks.

Yes. We should let people go out there and not make it so hard for them to exist out there in the first place. Use a faction to supply resources and direction to the community out there in the slums, and that group can make sure that no one openly talks about dissent.

Throughout the months it seems Willard's strayed from it's original idea of unarmed surface rebels only donning gear when need be, and it's been slowly turning into the same sewer rebel type of scene it's been trying to avoid from the start. Certainly when I was staff it'd be quite common to see people running around the slums in their full gear, this isn't exactly helped by the fact I'm aware that a few staff BMD characters have encouraged other players to join in by doing this themselves.

We have a fix to stop this for V3. Right now its hard to prevent this from happening when we reopen V2 (soon) but it can be done with some IC motivations not to do so.

 

[John Rico]

I know this may be controversial but one of the best tools that staff can have for helping rebels thrive is a CP faction that doesn't face excessive loss on death.

Why? Because as much as they have nothing to lose (and so yes you will always have bad faith actors), they also have nothing to gain by going hardcore on people. Its much easier for a willing faction lead to ask a CP faction to go easy - or for it to become second nature for them - when a loss in an NLR for them.

Right now though CP's stand to lose everything just like rebels do. What does that result in? A complete lack of mercy. If I'm being forced (via server balance and faction mandate) to risk my character by going in as a response team to something player rebels have done, what incentive do I have to let them go when any one of them could pull a gun and murder my character dead? That's just common sense. Its PVP, and if I don't "win" then I'm likely to get PK'd.

I think this is something WN missed entirely when advocating for "fairness" between factions. They're expected to kill eachother, but one is forced into being the aggressor by nature and then chastized for playing to win when they have everything to lose. Its no wonder, y'know? I've seen plenty of times in other communities where CP's have organically bumped into rebels during a sweep and both sides have parted ways without violence because of the risk.

I've never heard of that happening on WN because neither side has any reason to do it.

Always thought that Willard's general stance on PKs never accounted for the OOC aspect of the game. It was always sold as a "either we have this danger of death or nothing any character ever does will be meaningless", but it always felt like for every 'meaningful' moment this hardcore mentality created, you have another 100 cases where players decided instead on the most boring, safe option just because it's all 'all or nothing' all the fucking time.

As it currently stands, anyone trying to play to lose to allow the other side their share of fun too (or just acting in good faith in general) just stands to get fucked in the ass with how the game is designed.

I always went with the idea that Combine factions should play to lose for the most part (This doesn't mean losing every fight, but it means letting people have a chance, a chance to escape, a chance to survive an encounter, or missing your shots in a gunfight)

I feel most of the blowback towards P2L comes from a basic misconception, play to lose shouldn't mean literally what it's called, the concept should instead just imply that the Combine allows rebels any chance they can realistically give them to retreat (and basically P2L in turn) without them being completely wiped out. If rebels don't take that chance, by all means, PK their asses.

Quick example being: Combs attack rebel stronghold, rebels defend for a bit for the fun of it, then eventually retreat; they get to cut their losses and the Combine get the soft W by 'taking the territory'. Both sides get to fight the next day because neither decided to play an 'All in' battle like absolute retards. You have to keep a healthy cycle of repeating conflict to keep the server alive.

 

[Belgg]

I'm really tired of hearing that this and that will 'kill the server'. I think its an exaggeration.

A full wipe will kill the server as a matter of fact.

 

[Kappatalist]

I'm really tired of hearing that this and that will 'kill the server'. I think its an exaggeration.

It's happened on other servers, hell, it even happened on the first iteration of Willard - the entire reason Willard went so strongly with the idea of surface rebels and focusing entirely on the main city was because when the opposite was tried it ended horrifically. (From what I've observed ofc)

- The Citizen faction is primarily the most important and if all Citizens rush to the slums, then all other factions die.
- Rebels entire focus should be on the main city, infiltrating factions and RPing in stores, any sort of 'rebel' zone is inherently bad imo

 

[Rabid]

It's happened on other servers, hell, it even happened on the first iteration of Willard - the entire reason Willard went so strongly with the idea of surface rebels and focusing entirely on the main city was because when the opposite was tried it ended horrifically. (From what I've observed ofc)

- The Citizen faction is primarily the most important and if all Citizens rush to the slums, then all other factions die.
- Rebels entire focus should be on the main city, infiltrating factions and RPing in stores, any sort of 'rebel' zone is inherently bad imo

This. Literally the entire reason WN pushed so heavily towards surface stuff was because of the lessons Atle learned at the communities he played in before making WN.

Unfortunately nothing survives contact with the playerbase and over time people gave in to player complaints rather than sticking to their guns as they did in the first six months.

 

[Asimo1234]

- Rebels entire focus should be on the main city, infiltrating factions and RPing in stores, any sort of 'rebel' zone is inherently bad imo

Just a short thing I want to mention, while this is beneficial for roleplay, you have to keep in mind that you should reasonably expect rebels to be on the cautious side of things.
This is why we see bases in the slums, and not in apartments. People who do illegal shit will always gravitate towards the areas with the least oversight.
"The Rebellion" in general will need to have some form of "Stronghold" from where to operate, and every rebel group should be able to set up such an area where they have relative safety from the Combine (till ota comes knocking).

I don't see the realism in having rebels solely operate from an apartment where cps can walk in at any time. At least not when it comes to grand-scale rebellion activity. Though for the purpose of CityRP, the zone should probably be "event" based. Weird description but counting out rebel zones in its entirely just seems wacc. Kinda like saying Black Mesa East or White Forest shouldn't exist.

 

[M!NT]

A full wipe will kill the server as a matter of fact.

We're not talking about that here. Lets stay on topic.

 

[Rabid]

Just a short thing I want to mention, while this is beneficial for roleplay, you have to keep in mind that you should reasonably expect rebels to be on the cautious side of things.
This is why we see bases in the slums, and not in apartments. People who do illegal shit will always gravitate towards the areas with the least oversight.
"The Rebellion" in general will need to have some form of "Stronghold" from where to operate, and every rebel group should be able to set up such an area where they have relative safety from the Combine (till ota comes knocking).

I don't see the realism in having rebels solely operate from an apartment where cps can walk in at any time. At least not when it comes to grand-scale rebellion activity. Though for the purpose of CityRP, the zone should probably be "event" based. Weird description but counting out rebel zones in its entirely just seems wacc. Kinda like saying Black Mesa East or White Forest shouldn't exist.

That depends entirely on how the Resistance operates, imo. The various gangs and other groups did well without the slums being a 'safe zone' and it let them roll with the punches easier too.

When you start giving them actual safe zones and having them set up for "grand scale rebellion activity" it leads to what we have now because the reality is they're gonna spend months doing nothing for MAYBE a few hours of possible payoff total. I know what you mean, but its much better if you give them hidden caches they can store their stuff in than full-on safezones.

 

[Asimo1234]

I know what you mean, but its much better if you give them hidden caches they can store their stuff in than full-on safezones.

I personally don't see the realism in an entire resistance sell operating out of the backroom of a shop. Nobody is stopping you from doing it but if you look at history, majority of the activity describes as resistance originates from places where the occupier cannot easily strike.
Think mountains, deep forests, places without infrastructure and people to snitch.

All I'm saying that you shouldn't completely do away with rebels having some form of storage/hideout beyond combine reach. Though such a place shouldn't be somewhere you can just walk into. You'll have to actually make a trip through no-mans-land to get there, which should bring danger.
It is part of the reason why I dislike the current implementation of the "outlands" in the current map. It is just a teleport, not a trip.

 

[Rabid]

I personally don't see the realism in an entire resistance sell operating out of the backroom of a shop. Nobody is stopping you from doing it but if you look at history, majority of the activity describes as resistance originates from places where the occupier cannot easily strike.
Think mountains, deep forests, places without infrastructure and people to snitch.

All I'm saying that you shouldn't completely do away with rebels having some form of storage/hideout beyond combine reach. Though such a place shouldn't be somewhere you can just walk into. You'll have to actually make a trip through no-mans-land to get there, which should bring danger.
It is part of the reason why I dislike the current implementation of the "outlands" in the current map. It is just a teleport, not a trip.

Past a certain point I think realism is a detriment to actually keeping a server active - and in this case, Outlands shouldn't exist at all. It is a trap that people keep falling into time and time again when it comes to RebelRP.

Think about it - if people have to make a dangerous trip to an untouchable safezone, what're they more likely to do when they get there? Brave coming back to the city to risk a PK for doing rebel stuff or sitting somewhere 100% safe where they don't have that risk?

If rebels are not pushed to integrate, they can and will sit in bases or other safe zones to keep their characters alive. This is why even surface bases got removed in 1.0, because people realised rebels did nothing else but camp in them. Player choice is important but there's a point you need to recognise that some playstyles are a detriment to keeping the server active.

 

[Kappatalist]

Just a short thing I want to mention, while this is beneficial for roleplay, you have to keep in mind that you should reasonably expect rebels to be on the cautious side of things.
This is why we see bases in the slums, and not in apartments. People who do illegal shit will always gravitate towards the areas with the least oversight.
"The Rebellion" in general will need to have some form of "Stronghold" from where to operate, and every rebel group should be able to set up such an area where they have relative safety from the Combine (till ota comes knocking).

I don't see the realism in having rebels solely operate from an apartment where cps can walk in at any time. At least not when it comes to grand-scale rebellion activity. Though for the purpose of CityRP, the zone should probably be "event" based. Weird description but counting out rebel zones in its entirely just seems wacc. Kinda like saying Black Mesa East or White Forest shouldn't exist.

I agree rebel groups need their 'safe' spot to craft and store gear, that being said I don't think it should ever go beyond this into any sort of open community. If the slums isn't treated the same as the rest of the city, it will just turn into shanty town 2 if it's encouraged and this is obviously bad for the server.

Also, grand-scale rebellion activity doesn't really makes sense in the heart of C24 anyway. The way things go it's almost always small cells being supplied by the outside and that's how it should stay imo. But no, basing in the apartment block isn't feasible especially now that it's located above rations, it might've been before when the blocks on Triumph both led to the slums, but not anymore.