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Magazine system

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M3ntal

M3ntal

Radio Bob Approved
Joined
Mar 4, 2022
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642
To be brief. We just tested it out. It's needlessly convoluted, and overly slow. Realism is good and all, but this is just fucking horrendous. Please, for the love of god, remove this sytem, and re-implement the old one.
 
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As someone who enjoys roleplaying this takes me out of it. I do not think I can roleplay in an intensive environment such as Alaska with it. Not because I cannot shoot, but because I cannot interact the way I should be against NPCs. So my character going elsewhere is a bit stifled by such OOC convolution and hindrance.
 
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Oh hey, another generic complaint that <system x is bad> because you consider it <shit/slow/fast/too complex/too simple/unrealistic/too realistic/insert other bad adjective here> and stops there without any further explanation.

Let me try: the old ammo system is FUCKING HORRENDOUS because it literally is shit 2010 code. I will not elaborate any more on that and just say we should stay with the new ammo system.

In all seriousness, the old ammo system was:
  1. A magic ammo pool in no way represented or supported by other game mechanics
  2. One-way ammo. Loaded the ammo box? o7 ammo box and good fucking luck doing anything else with that ammo other than shooting it or losing it to various stupid stuff.
  3. Totally abuseable. I had to put in ammo limits as people had nothing against walking around with more bullets than a whole fucking US army platoon. With zero RP!
  4. Totally undetectable by any other player. You could walk onto the plaza, be patted down five times, get your hands on a completely unloaded weapon and then go full 'no russian' on the entirety of the CCA/loyalists/whichever other poor soul must suffer your RDM.
  5. Honestly the system was like 95% code that I swear nearly directly derives from what was implemented in Prototype (pre-nexus pre-blueprint pre-openaura pre-clockwork times) in 2009. It in no way fits with the general depth of basically every other feature on Willard.

What is so slow and convoluted about it? Maybe explain so I can work on improving the system rather than just immediately going 'we must go back to shit old system'. Otherwise this thread will just get locked.

As far as I get it, I didn't even add in action timers for repacking magazines that would require you to stand still and do nothing else while moving bullets to and from magazines. It is just a quick drag and drop to load ammo (cf. having to right click the ammo box and selecting load). Sure, partially used magazines require extra time to repack... or just leave them like that and top them off with new ammo for zero extra effort over loading empty mags.

Yes, this is not your average CoD/BF/whatever ammo system, but it isn't like I went full ArmA/Squad on you either. You'd all cry if I did that.
 
Okay, then I'll re-phrase.
Remove it for this event. Implementing it half-way, rendering most people ammo-less was a supremely idiotic idea and has now crippled most people's offensive. An admin I was working with, struggled to even find the correct items amongst the myriad that was implemented. Each weapon requiring specific cartridges, ammo types, to be loaded and unloaded.
You can add this system when we aren't in a place where we have no means to manufacture ammo clips. Not now, however.
And maybe, you know, run a testing period so that people can actually elaborate how they feel about it instead of it being thrown in without warning in the middle of a combat-heavy event? Just a thought.

EDIT: I additionally found that this new magazine system is a gigantic headache on the side of GM's. So refunds are going to be a gigantic pain in the ass now.
 
M3ntal said:
Okay, then I'll re-phrase.
Remove it for this event. Implementing it half-way, rendering most people ammo-less was a supremely idiotic idea and has now crippled most people's offensive. An admin I was working with, struggled to even find the correct items amongst the myriad that was implemented. Each weapon requiring specific cartridges, ammo types, to be loaded and unloaded.
You can add this system when we aren't in a place where we have no means to manufacture ammo clips. Not now, however.
And maybe, you know, run a testing period so that people can actually elaborate how they feel about it instead of it being thrown in without warning in the middle of a combat-heavy event? Just a thought.

EDIT: I additionally found that this new magazine system is a gigantic headache on the side of GM's. So refunds are going to be a gigantic pain in the ass now.
Click to expand...
In case you don't know, we switched to ArcCW because TFA is fully broken and you deal absolutely no damage at all. TFA also is a dead body and I'm done reanimating it to have it going for another few weeks. So it was ArcCW or nothing. And ArcCW was coded with the ammo system included, they aren't 2 separate things where we can have one without the other.

Now, I had imagined we'd have gracefully switched to ArcCW a while ago, but I had a very big family issue come up unexpectedly so I was on LOA for the past 4+ weeks.

So yeah:
  1. GM's will get used to it, there isn't really any moment to make this less painful (imagine this happening when we also have hundreds of characters needing refunds rather than a mostly clean DB). I believe the new system improves enough to make it worth this pain.
  2. I haven't had any GM tell me anything yet on the system needing improvements, so yeah... if I don't hear anything I assume it is fine - usually staff is pretty vocal about issues and I end up getting a tag in the dev discord to fix shit. 3 tags from Vort stuff having bugs (sorry for that), but those are the only ones I got so far since the event started.
  3. I don't think having a crafting recipe for the magazines magically changes everything. You need to get guns/ammo from somewhere too... (or the supplies to make them). If anything, this is more of an event feedback thing than a development issue. We got a thread for event feedback, no need to start a new one, I believe.
  4. You can chose between this and TFA with no damage and the old ammo system. Pretty simple choice for most people.
  5. If you read it most magazines state what bullets they use in the description. Most magazines are also named after the gun that uses them. If this really is a big issue that people cannot figure out, I can always improve the text on the item to make this more clear (e.g. having the bullets for a magazine as a different color on a dedicated line, listing all available magazines on the weapon description, changing names around to make stuff more clear, ...). This is actually constructive feedback I can work with, rather than 'it is slow and convoluted'. Also quite easily addressed with five minutes of effort as it is just adding some more text somewhere.
 
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I already see people taking this complaint on a surface level. So I propose to initiate a test to see how people will respond to the magazine system.
 
Due to the lack of ammunition not being an issue, we were afforded the opportunity to participate in some of THE MOST FUN EVENTS we've ever had on Willard ever. The Zombie attack on the Mining Camp, the Oil Reavers Ambush, the Suicide Mission to get the Extract, etc. etc.

All of these events, now with the new and limited ammo system implemented halfway through an event, will render these incredibly memorable moments null and void. They will either no longer occur, or will occur significantly less times.

From this point onward, nearly every enemy encounter/fight/any conflict at all, will just end with everyone fleeing due to the severe lack of ammunition and cutting the fun short. Thanks for this awful decision in what, to now, has been the best time I've ever had on Willard.
 
I fail to understand the complaint being made here.

So you're basically advocating for the re-implementation of the old ammunition system. But the question is, why? From what I'm reading, the old system is broken and doesn't even do any damage. What's the point in having guns that do no damage and an easier ammo process? In favor of a system that does allow you to do damage but takes an ungodly amount of time to use.

From my perspective this complaint looks to be a choice between:

No Damage + Unlimited Ammo Capacity

vs

Damage + Limited Ammo
 
Furious said:
I fail to understand the complaint being made here.

So you're basically advocating for the re-implementation of the old ammunition system. But the question is, why? From what I'm reading, the old system is broken and doesn't even do any damage. What's the point in having guns that do no damage and an easier ammo process? In favor of a system that does allow you to do damage but takes an ungodly amount of time to use.

From my perspective this complaint looks to be a choice between:

No Damage + Unlimited Ammo Capacity

vs

Damage + Limited Ammo
Click to expand...
The nuanses were discussed in VC, so I can't be bothered to elaborate on them here. But what I will say is that the argument boils down to the time it was implemented. NPC heavy combat and severely limited ammo don't mix.
 
KG! said:
Due to the lack of ammunition not being an issue, we were afforded the opportunity to participate in some of THE MOST FUN EVENTS we've ever had on Willard ever. The Zombie attack on the Mining Camp, the Oil Reavers Ambush, the Suicide Mission to get the Extract, etc. etc.

All of these events, now with the new and limited ammo system implemented halfway through an event, will render these incredibly memorable moments null and void. They will either no longer occur, or will occur significantly less times.

From this point onward, nearly every enemy encounter/fight/any conflict at all, will just end with everyone fleeing due to the severe lack of ammunition and cutting the fun short. Thanks for this awful decision in what, to now, has been the best time I've ever had on Willard.
Click to expand...
Why will you all of the sudden have not enough ammo?

Old system: you need ammo boxes
New system: you need magazines (reusable infinitely - they do not even have durability) & bullets (cf. ammo boxes)

The required extra effort? You need to get magazines... once... which normally you would get when you get your gun. Beyond that... getting bullets or ammo boxes is the same thing. Only bullets are a lot more flexible in their use (unloading them from magazines, splitting them with other people, etc).

M3ntal said:
The nuanses were discussed in VC, so I can't be bothered to elaborate on them here. But what I will say is that the argument boils down to the time it was implemented. NPC heavy combat and severely limited ammo don't mix.
Click to expand...
Changing the ammo system back the old one doesn't change how much ammo goes around... just up to the GM's to spawn more bullets in that case. Not like we changed the amount of ammo types, or the amount of different guns. You just need 2 different items to use a gun properly (gun + magazines) rather than just a single item (gun).
 
Non-issue.

GM’s can simply spawn more ammo during the event and all your troubles will be solved + you get a more reliable weapon base along with it (that actually does damage)
 
Neonity said:
Non-issue.

GM’s can simply spawn more ammo during the event and all your troubles will be solved + you get a more reliable weapon base along with it (that actually does damage)
Click to expand...
Give GM's more work OR more player autonomy. I think the decision should be brutally obvious for this temporary, incredibly busy 2 week event.
 
Gr4Ss said:
Oh hey, another generic complaint that <system x is bad> because you consider it <shit/slow/fast/too complex/too simple/unrealistic/too realistic/insert other bad adjective here> and stops there without any further explanation.

Let me try: the old ammo system is FUCKING HORRENDOUS because it literally is shit 2010 code. I will not elaborate any more on that and just say we should stay with the new ammo system.

In all seriousness, the old ammo system was:
  1. A magic ammo pool in no way represented or supported by other game mechanics
  2. One-way ammo. Loaded the ammo box? o7 ammo box and good fucking luck doing anything else with that ammo other than shooting it or losing it to various stupid stuff.
  3. Totally abuseable. I had to put in ammo limits as people had nothing against walking around with more bullets than a whole fucking US army platoon. With zero RP!
  4. Totally undetectable by any other player. You could walk onto the plaza, be patted down five times, get your hands on a completely unloaded weapon and then go full 'no russian' on the entirety of the CCA/loyalists/whichever other poor soul must suffer your RDM.
  5. Honestly the system was like 95% code that I swear nearly directly derives from what was implemented in Prototype (pre-nexus pre-blueprint pre-openaura pre-clockwork times) in 2009. It in no way fits with the general depth of basically every other feature on Willard.

What is so slow and convoluted about it? Maybe explain so I can work on improving the system rather than just immediately going 'we must go back to shit old system'. Otherwise this thread will just get locked.

As far as I get it, I didn't even add in action timers for repacking magazines that would require you to stand still and do nothing else while moving bullets to and from magazines. It is just a quick drag and drop to load ammo (cf. having to right click the ammo box and selecting load). Sure, partially used magazines require extra time to repack... or just leave them like that and top them off with new ammo for zero extra effort over loading empty mags.

Yes, this is not your average CoD/BF/whatever ammo system, but it isn't like I went full ArmA/Squad on you either. You'd all cry if I did that.
Click to expand...
I think the problem is most of the npcs we fight... Are absolutely horrendous to fight.
When the ammo limit as placed on tfa we Cps fucking hated it.
Due to the fact that some npcs are too crazy on hp and then our guns did such shit damage we waste a lot of ammo. Not to talk about the alyx antlions and the wonderful hitbox...
So what I guess would be my concern is being faced with npcs and having to carry 200 magazines on your inventory because you will need them otherwise you will run out of ammo completely and sometimes you aren't given much of a choice to flee you have to fight.
While I understand yeah this seems cool I actually loved it, I think it's perfect kn player vs player since it's more unforgiving to tarkov type magdump in s2k.
But... When faced with npc bullet sponges it places you at a great disadvantage even with small npcs like antlions.
I can say I experienced this first hand during the extract event where I was putting around 10 to 16 rounds of my rifle into a single antlion and they would not die... Hl2 antlions btw.
 
Keep new weapon base, remove magazines. (Imo)

Cool idea on surface level to have them, but overall incredibly tedious and makes combat annoying
 
After having played with the magazines for a few days now, I can safely say this is THE FUCKING WORST THING I'VE EVER USED IN MY ENTIRE LIFE.

This now makes any sort of inventory management/storage/combat/EVERYTHING obnoxiously difficult and tedious to manage and removes ALL of the fun from using weaponry. PLEASE GET RID OF THIS IMMEDIATELY.

Keep the new guns, update the crafting schema (because we're unable to make new ammo/attachments/anything for them), and just remove the magazine system entirely. It's so incredibly bad. There's no other way around it.
 
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